Elemental attributions of the lower sephira
-
@Frater 639 said
"This was really helpful for me when it comes to how they are conceptualized:
Each conception is, however, balanced in itself. Four is also Daleth, the letter of Venus; so that the mother-idea is included. Again, the Sephira of 4 is Chesed, referred to Water. 4 is ruled by Jupiter, Lord of the Lightning (Fire) yet ruler of Air. Each Sephira is complete in its way..."
Yes, I've been struggling with this conception in my current study of the Book of Thoth. It's quite tough to get the brain around most of the time, but there have been some flashes of insight...
@Frater 639 said
"Also, when skrying, working with the planets and the elements seperately (and also the zodical signs) really helps to "see" the relations and differences -- the color, nature, style of the "beings and visions", topics germane to the element, planet, etc.
A big key for me was examining the planets that influenced the signs of the zodiac, and then looking at their elemental attributions. The diagram of the Rosy Cross is also very effective. This, together with studying the King and Queen scales of color was extremely helpful to me as well. Also, examining the "names" of the "beings" Qabalistically is also important and adds further insight, etc. as you map the territory...
I hope this is in some way helpful.
"Yes, that is helpful, thank you. Most of my scrying work of late has involved invoking an element and then entering that element's (triangular) symbol as a kind of door and just... seeing what happens. The planets have been trickier and I've gotten really nothing at all with zodiacal signs, so I thought I'd just focus on the elements for now, then move up to the planets, then the signs. Enochian angels have been particularly clear in expressing the nature of their elements (and their admixtures as well--I also had quite a series of experiences with the Senior attributed to Fire and Mercury, too...), though by far my best results with Enochian have been working with a small group, which has naturally made those workings less frequent than I'd like...
-
@Iamus said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"To approach it differently: From within the path of initiation - within the world as seen when centering in Malkuth and looking out from there - the next three sephiroth are the representations of the three pillars. The Water and Fire of Hod and Netzach are the bases of their two respective pillars - to which these ideas quite splendidly apply! - and Air is the equilibrating principle balanced between them. (Other than Malkuth, all Middle Pillar sephiroth are attributed to Air for this reason.)"Are you referring to the same schema that reverses the mercy:fire, severity:water attributions for Chesed and Geburah?"
No. (In fact, I'm not even sure what you might be talking about.) Primarily, I wasn't referring to anything above Tiphereth. (Presume that there is a veil between you and Tiphereth and see how Yesod, Hod, and Netzach look.)
"I still find the Tree of Life frequently awkward, cubersome and unintuitive, though less and less all the time, especially the more time I spend with the Tarot."
The Tree of Life, eventually, will unlock everything. However, don't presume it's logical. It's trans-logical. It gives an apparently reasonable picture of things until you look too closely... then they start to crumble a bit... then... that's the key to something far deeper. Usually those points of seeming illogic are places where we are entering with a wrong picture (e.g., thinking of intellect as a 'force' aspect rather than the 'form' aspect that it actually is).
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"No. (In fact, I'm not even sure what you might be talking about.) Primarily, I wasn't referring to anything above Tiphereth. (Presume that there is a veil between you and Tiphereth and see how Yesod, Hod, and Netzach look.) "
I was referring to diagrams I've seen (I believe in G.D. material, possibly in some of the work of the Ciceros?) Atrributing Air to Kether, Fire to Chokhmah, Water to Binah, Water to Chesed, Fire to Geburah, Air to Tiphareth, Fire to Netzach, Water to Hod, Air to Yesod and Earth to Malkuth. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
"The Tree of Life, eventually, will unlock everything. However, don't presume it's logical. It's trans-logical. It gives an apparently reasonable picture of things until you look too closely... then they start to crumble a bit... then... that's the key to something far deeper. Usually those points of seeming illogic are places where we are entering with a wrong picture (e.g., thinking of intellect as a 'force' aspect rather than the 'form' aspect that it actually is)."
Yes, I'm trying to keep this line of thinking in mind whenever the impulse to just throw Qabalah out the window and go back to being a chaos magician rises up
. And it's definitely paying off, slowly. Conceiving of intellect as form instead of force is actually super helpful, thanks. I had tended to conceive all 4 elements as forces."These become a great deal clearer if one actually passes through the formal stages of initiation, as is done with Temple of Thelema. I assure you that nobody comes through the Hod stage without the Water attribution being decisively clear."
I'm already somewhat familiar with your view on the relative merits of formal, temple initiation vs. self initiation, I think, but do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any advice on pursuing that same clarity for those of us who seem to be lead to make things more difficult for themselves by pursuing this work solo?
-
@Iamus said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"No. (In fact, I'm not even sure what you might be talking about.) Primarily, I wasn't referring to anything above Tiphereth. (Presume that there is a veil between you and Tiphereth and see how Yesod, Hod, and Netzach look.) "I was referring to diagrams I've seen (I believe in G.D. material, possibly in some of the work of the Ciceros?) Atrributing Air to Kether, Fire to Chokhmah, Water to Binah, Water to Chesed, Fire to Geburah, Air to Tiphareth, Fire to Netzach, Water to Hod, Air to Yesod and Earth to Malkuth. Sorry if that wasn't clear."
Since I'm not looking at the diagrams you saw, I can only guess - but I'm guessing that these were labelling the pillars, and not those sephiroth, or that possibly you are remembering wrong on Chesed or Geburah. The attribution of Geburah to Fire (yet on the Pillar of Form, because its mysteries involve receiving, being a conduit or channel, etc.) and Chesed to Water (yet on the Pillar of Force, because its mysteries involve active, assertive expression of creative force, especially of love-force) are quite basic to their natures.
"I'm already somewhat familiar with your view on the relative merits of formal, temple initiation vs. self initiation, I think, but do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any advice on pursuing that same clarity for those of us who seem to be lead to make things more difficult for themselves by pursuing this work solo?"
LOL, well, I can certainly encourage you in your conscious effort to make things more difficult. <g>
The best I can recommend is to keep studying and systemmatically incorporating the Tree from the bottom up. But this just isn't the same as actually being conducted through the stages systemmatically. Nothing can match that. (I say this from - among other things - having had a couple of decades of serious, progressing work and deep study under my belt before undergoing formal initiation into the Qabalistic (GD-type) model, and ONLY then did a zillion new puzzle pieces fall into place. Nothing I had done was lost, but it was no more than a solid foundation for the REAL progress.)
-
@Iamus said
"Yes, I've been struggling with this conception in my current study of the Book of Thoth. It's quite tough to get the brain around most of the time, but there have been some flashes of insight..."
In my opinion, the focus should be on working with the deck itself.
The book is for reference purposes...
After an initial read to seed the ideas.
Bringing stillness to the images
Drawing out their meaning
In that moments spot.When using the deck to give a reading, I do not supply any answers.
The Que-rent answers their own question
I am a humble servant, working at its translation in a Universe languageTo comment, briefly, on the original topic: In the System, it all fits together quite nicely.
I am sure a group of initiates, performing a Golden Dawn ritual, could appear silly to an outside observer ( one with no knowledge of it what so ever). -
@Jim Eshelman said
"Since I'm not looking at the diagrams you saw, I can only guess - but I'm guessing that these were labelling the pillars, and not those sephiroth, or that possibly you are remembering wrong on Chesed or Geburah. The attribution of Geburah to Fire (yet on the Pillar of Form, because its mysteries involve receiving, being a conduit or channel, etc.) and Chesed to Water (yet on the Pillar of Force, because its mysteries involve active, assertive expression of creative force, especially of love-force) are quite basic to their natures. "
Yes, I didn't mean to imply that any of the sephira had changed locations on the tree/pillars. Geburah was indeed still on the Pillar of Form, but had Fire attributed and likewise, mutatis mutandis, for Chesed. I'll have to see if I can dig out the diagram when I get home from work.
"The best I can recommend is to keep studying and systemmatically incorporating the Tree from the bottom up. But this just isn't the same as actually being conducted through the stages systemmatically. Nothing can match that. (I say this from - among other things - having had a couple of decades of serious, progressing work and deep study under my belt before undergoing formal initiation into the Qabalistic (GD-type) model, and ONLY then did a zillion new puzzle pieces fall into place. Nothing I had done was lost, but it was no more than a solid foundation for the REAL progress.)"
Hmm, thanks. When you say "conducted through the stages systematically" does this necessarily imply that you will be conducted by other humans? I've heard it said all true initiations happen on the astral, so if one is indeed working systematically through the stages (using, perhaps, your own Mystical & Magickal System of the A.'.A.'.) and performing self-initiations (Liber Pyramidos, for example), could that accomplish the same? I'm not so much worried about difficulty, time or risks, only that what I've been seeing as my path will actually reder certain attainments impossible (or at least highly unlikely).
-
@Uni_Verse said
"In my opinion, the focus should be on working with the deck itself.
The book is for reference purposes...
After an initial read to seed the ideas."I wasn't necessarily implying I was using the book for the sole purpose of working with the cards. I've never seen more lucid explication of a number of Qabalistic concepts/doctrine than in BoT. IMO limiting the book to being just a reference for the deck is to miss a lot of its potential value.
-
@Iamus said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Since I'm not looking at the diagrams you saw, I can only guess - but I'm guessing that these were labelling the pillars, and not those sephiroth, or that possibly you are remembering wrong on Chesed or Geburah. The attribution of Geburah to Fire (yet on the Pillar of Form, because its mysteries involve receiving, being a conduit or channel, etc.) and Chesed to Water (yet on the Pillar of Force, because its mysteries involve active, assertive expression of creative force, especially of love-force) are quite basic to their natures. "Yes, I didn't mean to imply that any of the sephira had changed locations on the tree/pillars. Geburah was indeed still on the Pillar of Form, but had Fire attributed and likewise, mutatis mutandis, for Chesed. I'll have to see if I can dig out the diagram when I get home from work."
Oh, yeah, that's correct. (I thought you were saying the opposite.) Fire goes from Chokmah to Geburah to Netzach (to the russet part of Malkuth). Water goes from Binah to Chesed to Hod (to the olive part of Malkuth). Air goes from Kether to Tiphereth to Yesod (to the citrine part of Malkuth).
"Hmm, thanks. When you say "conducted through the stages systematically" does this necessarily imply that you will be conducted by other humans?"
Nobody does the work on their own or by their own initiative. One's own initivative must be brought to the mix as a critical catalyst; but we all undertake and fulfill the key parts of the work by receiving (and an occasional, mutation).
[qjuote]I've heard it said all true initiations happen on the astral, so if one is indeed working systematically through the stages (using, perhaps, your own Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.) and performing self-initiations (Liber Pyramidos, for example), could that accomplish the same?"
I don't believe it ever will accomplish the same thing, no. (It's always possible I could be wrong, but this is my honest view.)
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"Fire goes from Chokmah to Geburah to Netzach (to the russet part of Malkuth). Water goes from Binah to Chesed to Hod (to the olive part of Malkuth). Air goes from Kether to Tiphereth to Yesod (to the citrine part of Malkuth)."
whoa. -
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Fire goes from Chokmah to Geburah to Netzach (to the russet part of Malkuth). Water goes from Binah to Chesed to Hod (to the olive part of Malkuth). Air goes from Kether to Tiphereth to Yesod (to the citrine part of Malkuth)." whoa."Also, you may have already noticed:
Blue/Chesed + Red/Geburah = Violet/Yesod
Blue/Chesed + Yellow/Tiphareth = Green/Netzach
Red/Geburah + Yellow/Tiphareth = Orange/HodStudying the Queen scale of color, in the light of color theory, really helped me to see some of the relations -- this is especially true when meditating on the Tarot cards.
Also, if you ever get the chance, try taking the Tarot trumps and arrange the zodiacal symbols in the style of the Greek astrological cross. That's an interesting layout, too.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"Oh, yeah, that's correct. (I thought you were saying the opposite.) Fire goes from Chokmah to Geburah to Netzach (to the russet part of Malkuth). Water goes from Binah to Chesed to Hod (to the olive part of Malkuth). Air goes from Kether to Tiphereth to Yesod (to the citrine part of Malkuth)."
Yeah, I see how the way I typed it was ambiguous now. sigh
Thanks for all your input, Jim.
@Frater 639 said
"Also, you may have already noticed:
Blue/Chesed + Red/Geburah = Violet/Yesod
Blue/Chesed + Yellow/Tiphareth = Green/Netzach
Red/Geburah + Yellow/Tiphareth = Orange/HodStudying the Queen scale of color, in the light of color theory, really helped me to see some of the relations -- this is especially true when meditating on the Tarot cards.
Also, if you ever get the chance, try taking the Tarot trumps and arrange the zodiacal symbols in the style of the Greek astrological cross. That's an interesting layout, too."
I haven't done much worth with the color scales (which is maybe a little ironic for a painter). It always seemed like there were more important things to work on, but maybe it's time... Hmm, I'll have to take a look at that arrangement. Thanks.
@Dar es Allrah said
"
I hope this is some encouragement to you in your solo practice. People will come along to help. Books and weapons and whatever you need will show up if you pay heed to those little moments of Kairos. Stay resolute to the end and persevere.Best and 93's.
"Thank you, that's very encouraging to hear!
I have a hard time trusting my intuition about where I'm being lead. I also have a tendency to be impatient and to want to see the whole path laid out before me. -
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Fire goes from Chokmah to Geburah to Netzach (to the russet part of Malkuth). Water goes from Binah to Chesed to Hod (to the olive part of Malkuth). Air goes from Kether to Tiphereth to Yesod (to the citrine part of Malkuth)." whoa."I'm with Av on this one. That's fantastic.