Sattvas, Rajas, Tamas on Fortune (Switch?)

Scarecrow

Having some trouble with the Gunas and how they correspond to the Fortune card - looking for clarity...

BOT, Fortune Atu:

The Gunas are represented in European philosophy by the three qualities, sulphur, mercury and salt, already pictured in Atu I, III and IV. But in this card the attribution is somewhat different.

Crowley then goes on to describe the 3 figures on the card. How I interpret his attributions on the Fortune card:

Sattvas Sphinx Sulphur Shin Fire
Sattvas is calm, intelligence, lucidity and balance.

Rajas Hermanubis Mercury Aleph Air
Rajas is energy, excitement, fire, brilliance, restlessness;

Tamas Typhon Salt Mem Water
Tamas is darkness, inertia, sloth, ignorance, death

The clouds of confusion sweep in because I'm trying to understand why Sattvas (the sphinx?) is attributed to Sulphur/Shin/Fire and why Rajas (hermanubis?) is attributed to Mercury/Aleph/Air.

They seem switched (the "somewhat different" Crowley mentions?) But why do it?

PatchworkSerpent

@Scarecrow said

"The clouds of confusion sweep in because I'm trying to understand why Sattvas (the sphinx?) is attributed to Sulphur/Shin/Fire and why Rajas (hermanubis?) is attributed to Mercury/Aleph/Air.

They seem switched (the "somewhat different" Crowley mentions?) But why do it?"

Not sure if I can give you a complete explanation (perhaps a misprint?) but it is important to remember that although there are significant parallels between the guna, elemental and alchemical attributions, they are by no means identical.

Scarecrow

"Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, which may be translated roughly as Calm, Activity, and Slothful Darkness. (BOT, pg18)"

Sattva = Calm
Rajas = Activity
Tamas = Slothful Darkness

Looking at the card it appears that the Monkey going wild climbing is Activity, Rajas, the Sphinx sitting up top is the epitome of calm, Sattva... and of course the Croc on the down path is Slothful Darkness.

"This Sulphur is Activity, Energy, Desire; Mercury is Fluidity, Intelligence, the power of Transmission; Salt is the vehicle of these two forms of energy, but itself possesses qualities which react on them. (BOT, pg18)"

Sulper = Activity = Rajas
Mercury = Fluidity = Sattva
Salt = the vehicle = Tamas

But then the switch in the Fortune card...

Could be a misprint. The line

"But in this card the attribution is somewhat different."
has given me the impression that it is not.

Further down the rabbit hole:

The Golden Dawn version of this card has the Sphinx associated with Mercury (Superconsciousness?)

In Crowley Aethyr vision of the Fortune card, the attributions switch places once again...

"But at the top seems to be the Lamb and Flag, such as one sees on some Christian medals, and one of the lower things is a wolf, and the other a raven. (BOT, pg134)"

"(His attribution is salt; the wolf mercury, and the raven sulphur.) (BOT, pg135)"

Anyway, I'm still lost as to why: Sattvas (the sphinx?) is attributed to Sulphur/Shin/Fire and why Rajas (hermanubis?) is attributed to Mercury/Aleph/Air.

Tinman

"777, CLXXXI.
Correct Design of Tarot Trumps.

A wheel of six shafts, whereon revolve the Triad of Hermanubis, Sphinx, and Typhon *

Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas (from notes on the above, pg 39)"

Curious... Crowley seems to be breaking from his earlier attribution in 777; here he attributes:
Hermanubis = Sattva
Sphinx = Rajas
Typon = Tamas

Also note that in the Rite of Jupiter, the Sphinx (Ecstasy) acts as the balance between sloth (Typhon) and activity (Hermanubis). This would seem to imply that the Sphinx is represented by the Mercury, Typhon by Salt, and Hermanubis Sulpher.

PERHAPS (big shot in the dark), the key is that this card may represent the changing Aeon's? The Aeon's revolve and Crowley mentions: "This Sphinx represents the element of sulphur, and is exalted, temporarily, upon the summit of the wheel."

Also note that in the AEON card, Crowley states:

"...the letter Shin, which refers to Fire. The card therefore represented the destruction of the world by Fire. This was accomplished in the year of the vulgar era 1904, when the fiery god Horus took the place of the airy god Osiris in the East as Hierophant (see Atu V)."

So in the past, Mercury (Air) was exalted. Now Sulphur (Fire) is exalted. So that takes care of why Sulphur is at the apex of the triangle and Mercury is on the base line. Now why keep Sattvas at the top, instead of revolving it along with Sulphur?

Quick aside: take a look at the 3 of disks:

"The base is formed by three wheels-Mercury, Sulphur, and Salt; Sattvas, Rajas, and Tamas in the Hindu system; Aleph, Shin, and Mem-Air, Fire, and Water-the three Mother letters of the Hebrew alphabet."

(based on the order of words in the sentence - which may signify nothing)
Mercury = Sattvas = Aleph = Air
Sulphur = Rajas = Shin = Fire
Salt = Tamas = Mem = Water

Perhaps some clue is in the cards that represent these 3 "things":

The Fool Card:

"This card is attributed to the letter Aleph, which means an Ox, but by its shape the Hebrew letter (so it is said) represents a ploughshare; thus the significance is primarily Phallic. It is the first of the three Mother letters, Aleph, Mem, and Shin, which correspond in various interwoven fashions with all the triads that occur in these cards, notably Fire, Water, Air; Father, Mother, Son; Sulphur, Salt, Mercury; Rajas, Sattvas and Tamas."

(based on the order of words...)
Fire = Father = Sulphur = Rajas
Water = Mother = Salt = Sattvas
Air = Son = Mercury = Tamas

The Emperor Card:

"The Emperor is also one of the more important alchemical cards; with Atu II and III, he makes up the triad: Sulphur, Mercury, Salt. His arms and head form an upright triangle; below, crossed legs represent the Cross. This figure is the alchemical symbol of Sulphur (see Atu X). Sulphur is the male fiery energy of the Universe, the Rajas of Hindu philosophy. This is the swift creative energy, the initiative of all Being."

The Empress Card:

"In this card, she is shown in her most general manifestation. She combines the highest spiritual with the lowest material qualities. For this reason, she is fitted to represent one of the three alchemical forms of energy, Salt. Salt is the inactive principle of Nature; Salt is matter which must be energized by Sulphur to maintain the whirling equilibrium of the Universe."

?!?

Danica

@Scarecrow said

"Having some trouble with the Gunas and how they correspond to the Fortune card - looking for clarity...

They seem switched (the "somewhat different" Crowley mentions?) But why do it?"

maybe the three Gunas can not be found in 'pure' state on the rim of the weel, and we have them here mixed-up, interchanged - 'personalized' with the three figures depicted on the card.... focusing our consciousness only on the rim, we find ourselves sometimes as Typhon, sometimes as Hermanubis, sometimes as Sphinx - and this being the most balanced form of forces *, it's our way of achieving the Fifth in The Four - the point in the circle, point which is at intersection of the cross-lines - and thus 'arrive' at hub-consciousness, not being pulled here-and-there on the rim anymore.

the Gunas as such are principles, so they essentially do not belong to the world of Assiah - but at least Yetzirah (I would 'put' them in Briah, though, because they represent the threefold principle of all the manifestation and as such are some kind of 'roots' in creative sense ... like stable basis of solid matter created by geometrical triangle...). so when manifested can rarely (or not at all?) be found pure, as-a-single-substanced phenomena. for example, we can be verry angry (rajas) and full with fire, but at the same time inertial (tamas), like buried, not being able to move; eventually anger moves us, or inertia wins and we stay in tamas, but it's all a matter of ballance and the fine difference between the level of intensity of one over the other at a given moment (or period) of time; and during all this, we can be in a way aware of what is going on (sattvas part of rim-us). etc

so, basically, my conclusion is that the three figures on the card are not per se representatives of the Gunas, but of the Gunas as they are manifestetd on the border of the wheel, Gunas as we experience them on the rim of samsara-circle.

Scarecrow

"On the Tree of Life, Atu XIII and XV are symmetrically placed; they lead from Tiphareth, the human consciousness, to the spheres in which Thought (on the one hand) and Bliss (on the other) are developed. Between them, Atu XIV leads similarly to the sphere which formulates Existence. (See note on Atu X and arrangement.) - BOT, Devil"

Alright so what if the monkey on the left is the devil...
The croc on the right is the death card...

Here we have the formula ON... male and female.

The sphinx on the top then would be the Art card? As sulpher s/he almost seems more like the Tower, which the Art card crosses (bow and arrow) and the arrow in the Art card does represent directed Will.

So get the male monkey on the left to be mercury or the will begins with the "maleness" of each magician (the active)... YOD? The female croc is the co-equal mother Salt... HEH? And the sphinx is the "expansion of the consciousness" (MTP, ch3), the son, VAU... and the union of all 3 is HEH final...

I'm reaching. Feels like I'm making headway... but still too much reaching.

Jim Eshelman

I've always been uncertain about Crowley's attributions of these also, and mostly handled it by ignoring them; but, admittedly, he seemed quite decisive about them (whereas many other Book of Thoth remarks are toss-offs.

There is an error in the Atu X discussion, where "Atu II" appears in the book but "Atu I" is meant. That's probably a typesetting error rather than a brain fart.

But yes, generally, Typhon is the Sulphur idea (Rajas), not the Sphinx; so he is doing something different with his discussion. Nor does the Vision of the 4th Aethyr explain it.

ThelemicMage

I had to throw a few words into this very old post regarding Crowley's attributions of these three alchemical beings.

I believe this has to do not only with "new aeon" changes, but "new new aeon" changes.

We learn that Hathor is strongly associated with Fire, and not just in the new Aeon. I believe that Horus, being of the Air and too "fiery and manly", and his Completion in Ra Hoor Khuit, was transformed into the Sphinx by Hathor, (or one of the many other names she goes by.)

This would mean that an incredibly strong being of the Air has been transformed by the infinite circumference of femininity and by the Power thereof, to a being of fire. The sphinx is almost a lion.

In the book of going back by night, our old friend the stony sphinx goes into detail on this, and so does Crowley. I believe the book of going back by night to be a genuine piece of prophecy and by communication from the secret chiefs.

I can see some other patterns emerging here, like the continuum of "getting off of the softness", including the moving of the Earth into the West.
Here we have Tamas, associated with Set, who is normally Fire, but he is leaving the softness behind to flow with more powerful forces, ie the waters of Creation, keeping the element of salt while he does so. This screams evolution.

Just my 93 cents.

Tinman

I have no idea what you just said ThelemicMage.

Tinman

I didn't say I didn't like it, only that I don't understand it. And I appreciate the helpful pointers in remedying the latter.

ThelemicMage

I'm sorry if it's confusing.

Please read into the elemental attributes of all three of these, and then study into the natural progression of matter, as well as what we know about the evolution of the Earth and the universe itself.

You could make a quick table of all three and compare each different correspondence to the others and easily figure this out.

I've been up for 24 hours and I will respond later if need be.

Dar, everyone.

Tinman

To be more clear about where I'm lacking understanding so that you can better address each point individually (if you wouldn't mind doing obviously):

"I believe this has to do not only with "new aeon" changes, but "new new aeon" changes."

What is New New Aeon?

"We learn that Hathor is strongly associated with Fire, and not just in the new Aeon. I believe that Horus, being of the Air and too "fiery and manly", and his Completion in Ra Hoor Khuit, was transformed into the Sphinx by Hathor, (or one of the many other names she goes by.)"

This paragraph gives me trouble. Are you saying something symbolic? What does it mean that Horus is completed in RHK turned into the Sphinx by Hathor? Why do you think this? Based on what?

"This would mean that an incredibly strong being of the Air has been transformed by the infinite circumference of femininity and by the Power thereof, to a being of fire. The sphinx is almost a lion."

Are you equating Hathor with Nuit? Isn't the Sphinx a Lion/Bull/Angel/Eagle (Dragon)? So wouldn't it be just as true to say the Sphinx is almost a Bull?

"In the book of going back by night, our old friend the stony sphinx goes into detail on this, and so does Crowley. I believe the book of going back by night to be a genuine piece of prophecy and by communication from the secret chiefs. "

Goes into detail on what? And where does Crowley do so?

"I can see some other patterns emerging here, like the continuum of "getting off of the softness", including the moving of the Earth into the West."

What do these two terms mean to you? "Getting off of the softness". "Moving of the Earth into the West".

"Here we have Tamas, associated with Set, who is normally Fire, but he is leaving the softness behind to flow with more powerful forces, ie the waters of Creation, keeping the element of salt while he does so. This screams evolution."

So Tamas = Set = Water = Salt to you? And Tamas = Set used to = Fire. And this change screams evolution? What is changing? Are you being symbolic or are you saying a god somewhere has literally changed?

Jim Eshelman

I have to admit... I have exactly the same questions as Tinman.

ThelemicMage

I just woke up so I'll take this slow with a few points and then comment more as the ideas come back..

"New new aeon" means the aeon of Hrumachis, the sphinx. "Hathor" of the Aeon of Horus, performs the same work and transformation as "Ma'at", who is the force that helps transform the current Hadit of our universes (RHK) into the sphinx. Check the book of going back by night. The sphinx hints on what the past was and how the future became the present.

Horus is Horus of the two horizons. He is transmuted into the sphinx by his female counterpart, to be Hrumachis of the two horizons, but not having to move around as both Ra and Horus, but looking simultaneously into both horizons at once.

"Moving the Earth into the West" has to do with just that. Moving the Earth into the direction of the flow of the Sun. The completion of the great work by manifestation of the Sun in the Earth, (currently by the Beast and his lovely Bride,) involves "fixing" the Tree by filling in Da'at with the Tiphereth again by actually moving the Earth into the West.

"Getting off of the softness" is just that as well. Becoming not so dependent on "mommy" darkness which IS the Earth yet is also the huge black circle of darkness that comprises any space.

Basically what is being told to us is that we are half asleep being protected by the softness of Earth which starts any "soft" physical manifestation under our Lady Nuit.
I cannot think of a good reference, but Crowley goes deep into this in Astrological workings. I'll send you a couple books in pdf format if you wish just on this topic.

Reading over my comments on RHK and Hrumachis in my earlier post, I admit I worded things confusingly, as RHK is currently almost a kerub of Air, however it has been stated that Ra-Horus of the two horizons was too "intense" and "masculine" and was transformed into Ra-Hoor-Khuit by Khuit, one of the ancient names for Hathor, into a less "intense" being and someone more able to communicate something like the book of the law.

I have read Crowley directly comment on this idea as well, in more than one place.

You are totally correct when you state the sphinx combines the Kerub qualities of all four, and I might retract part of a sentence of my first post regarding this. I was probably only expressing part of my then-current thoughts to try to get a point across, I apologize. I was probably stoned and excited.

However, this makes my point easier to get across.

That said, if you take all of this into consideration, you can see the continuation and evolution of elements into higher states. This includes manifesting the three gunas and their alchemical counterparts as higher manifestations of themselves.

All right, my head his hurting. I will make a map and a chart and try to explain this further if you wish.

Oh, and there are two instances on your last question: Yes, a god has both literally changed, (evolved) into a higher state, RHK has evolved in to Hrumachis, (even Hrumachis says this), even as Ra-Horus evolves into RHK, even though he is a combination entity. And Yes, gods climb the Tree of Life just like we do, and take eachothers' jobs.

So, if we are in the element of Fire with Set as our current Hadit, then after all of the evolution from Malkuth to Kether, Set will move to the next greatest role on the Tree, being the Hadit of Air. We may be in a Hod projected into the obvious Fire, obvious because even after Set and Horus fighting for so long, Horus/Hoor Paar Kraat needs the beast of this Universe in Fire to help him manifest himself in the Earth with his lovely Bride, to move the Earth into the West and restore the Tree of Life.

Tinman

There is still so much of what is going on in your head that I'm not able to "get" from the words you are writing.

""New new aeon" means the aeon of Hrumachis, the sphinx. "Hathor" of the Aeon of Horus, performs the same work and transformation as "Ma'at", who is the force that helps transform the current Hadit of our universes (RHK) into the sphinx. Check the book of going back by night. The sphinx hints on what the past was and how the future became the present."

This seems to be founded upon nothing that I know from Thelema.

For example, Hrumachis is the initiating officer of the Aeon of Maat (which isn't here and now but in the future, at least, from my understanding of the Aeon's model presented to us by Crowley).

See: <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6285&p=38368&hilit=Hrumachis#p38368">viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6285&p=38368&hilit=Hrumachis#p38368</a>

"Hrumachis is the symbol of the dawn itself, i.e., of the occurrence of a next aeon per se. The Lord (or, actually, Lady) of the next aeon is, per Liber L., the double-wanded one, i.e., Maat."

Also, I wouldn't characterize Hadit as equal to "the 93 current" (if that is indeed the current you are referring to). Completely different things as I understand it.

Also, I have no idea what or who you have in you head turning into a sphinx but I guess I'm just lost right there... isn't it the initiate that turns themselves into a Sphinx?

I guess what my impression is, is that you have a unique idea of what the art on the Fortune card means, fueled by some Thelema, some Egyptian Book of the Dead, etc, but which isn't really "official" or based on anything Crowley says. Maybe I'm wrong.

ThelemicMage

"I guess what my impression is, is that you have a unique idea of what the art on the Fortune card means, fueled by some Thelema, some Egyptian Book of the Dead, etc, but which isn't really "official" or based on anything Crowley says. Maybe I'm wrong"

No, you are perfectly correct there.

Try to think of succession of power. You have the angry Jehovah, then his Son, Osiris, then his son, Horus, .. never directly referred to, but the same current of power. The same being re-manifesting themselves, via female consorts, after cosmic evolution.

RHK is part Khuit, part Ra, part Horus.

Now the female element is recognized as a separate "soul" than Ra and Horus, being the house of both Ra and Horus. I doubt, however, that Ra and Horus do not share the same "current" or, less explainable, "soul." Two separate souls with that kind of manly power would not manifest harmoniously in the same "body", despite how wonderful a woman they have for their "house."

Tinman

I'm going to refer to 777, which I'm sure you are familiar with, but if you aren't:

Osiris is listed, in Col XX, on level 10...malkuth. Ra is level 6, Horus level 5. (Please forgive the use of the term level, I'm apt to use row or frequency, but went with level). Crowley doesn't tabulate the name "Jehovah", but perhaps He could fit, within Col XXXVI, at the 2, 4 or 5 levels.

What I'm getting at is that Jehovah, Osiris, and Horus are not the same current of power. That isn't even the succession of Aeons.

So what rabbit hole have you gone down?

Ok - let me try to grok what you are saying:

You are saying that there is a cosmic power. I'm not clear how to relate to this Cosmic Power - I'm looking for a guide on the Tree of Life since it's a fairly useful tool for communicating ideas such as this one from one brain to another.
You are saying there is a Male cosmic power which has taken certain forms and has been evolving.
You are saying that the Male cosmic power has a "soul". (but there are multiple souls for one cosmic power?)
You are saying that there is a Female cosmic power which has a different "soul".
You are saying these cosmic souls manifest in a "body".

Alright so leaving aside the fact that I have no idea what you mean when you say "soul", or why you put "body" in quotes... to bring it back to the topic of this thread, what does this (and correct me on my points if I missed something) have to do with the Sattvas, Rajas, Tamas switch on the Fortune card?

Also, if Crowley isn't saying what you are saying, why would what you are saying be on Crowley's card?

ThelemicMage

You are correct on all numbered assumptions, but I doubt they have different "souls" per male power who has been evolving.

And yes, I believe he has a female consort that evolves with him in different states and levels of being.

I must defend my use of the word "current", since even as Crowley states, in his past life, Anhk af no Khonsu was of the same "current" as himself, the Beast 666. Two completely different Aeons, same current.

This is getting way out of the aspect of evolution of alchemical elements. The way I might explain myself a little later, (since I am late for something important,) is that the elements evolve themselves, just as we have through our lives. I am completely sure that the steadfast, aged souls, (of which you and I both know we are,) have been through many incarnations of being:

1)"Black" Race, attributed to element of Water
2)"Red" Race, attributed to element of Earth
3)"Yellow" Race, attributed to element of Air
4)"White" Race, attributed to element of Fire

[You can also see these manifested within the four horsemen of the evolution of the Universe within Revelations. Pale corresponds to "Yellow". The white horse is already mentioned. Plus, Air constitutes the cause of sorrow, death itself. Black holds the balances since water causes the balance between all things, as does air separate them simultaneously. Not much left to explain really, other than Earth, the god set fighting, instigates men to make war with one another.

The white horse is self-explainable. We have been conquering many people of different and same skin for thousands of years. It's our duty, you might say, while the emotional part was not wholly there all the time, no joke. But as crowley says, I ride upon the edge of the Gale, I swing my sword, strike, smite and prevail! All under True Will and Love, though.]

So, if your alchemical name is mercury, and mine is sulfur, you might be in black skin, and I might be in white skin. This is the current view. (I chose mercury because of your avatar's appearance.)

However, mercury might have been born in Japan a thousand years prior, and sulfur in South America. (This is a strange conversation, I must say that South Americans that I have met, known, and worked with have so much more Fire in them than almost any white person I've met, worked with, or known, outside of my family. And I take racial pride without bigotry very seriously.)

Have you ever noticed that there's two brick roads side by side in the motion picture, red and yellow. They tell her to follow the yellow brick road towards the emerald city. Where does the red brick road lead?
My guess, the majestic fields of red poppy where they would have been better off, not aging for the rest of their nodding lives. One gets used to the nod, and the sickness, but it's dangerous to mess around with witches or wizards who either want to kill you or send you back to a starving family in a drought in the middle of Nowhere, Kansas.

They should have killed the witch, taken her poppies and servants, and bent her servants to their Will.

Tinman

"Not much left to explain really"

I've been trying to come up with a way of writing a response to this which both leaves us both feeling happy, and ends the conversation. The reason for both is that you seem willing to engage in a respectful conversation, and for that I'm very pleased and appreciative of your time and effort, but that I'm not entirely sure you are saying anything other than telling me your imaginations.

I keep thinking "Method is science"... logic... and where is the logic? For example, when you were talking about the "other road" in the Wizard of Oz, I got excited. I looked up pictures, watched parts of the film... you know that red road either goes off screen as an actual road (couldn't tell) or it's just the part of the design that is there to make the Gold spiral path pop (figure and ground); but there is nowhere in that "system", in the movie, that talks about it going to

"the majestic fields of red poppy"
.
That "majestic fields" stuff you just made up, and ran with it.
I get the feeling all of your comments (races, elements evolving, cosmic man woman, etc) on this thread are in the same vein.

So carrying on the conversation, I don't think I'll get any closer to finding out why Crowley did what he did on the Fortune card is what I'm saying.

But still, thanks for the discussion Black/Red/Yellow/White brother from another mother.

ThelemicMage

I hear what you are saying, sir TinMan.

I try to not let my imagination go in a (semi?)-logical conversation such as this, but I had to throw some far-out concepts your way to try to connect the ideas of the progression of matter. That's all.

It was a great conversation to say the least. It has me thinking more and more about what else might change in alchemy. IE: if Crowley were Crowley today, would he see further changes in the future for such things? And if he did, would he even mention them, since they are not currently at this time progressed as such?

I tell you what. Make a few maps of the alchemical elements, and their correspondences, and make them from different angles. You are a bright chap. This is actually a pretty simple thing to ponder -- I get the supreme feeling you are trying to over-complicate a simple evolution of matter.

If my spirit was unable to check akashic records, I doubt I would answer when people call me by current name. So many names from the past, as well as the name of my HGA, undulates in my brain so that the most spiritual aspects of the lives I've led come together and meet to form my present way of thinking.

It is easy for initiates, very prone to success and progression in this business, to over-complicate simple ideas. I'm sure you will find your own answer as simply as you can add two and two.

It's like looking at one of those old 3-d stereogram pictures. If you look too far into the distance, or cross your eyes, you don't see the image. Look perfectly just past the image, (into it's future?), you get the 3-d image.

G'night, TinMan. I will protest the current bastardization of oil prices so you can sit, economically, in that field of poppies with the snowfall as long as you wish.