Sattvas, Rajas, Tamas on Fortune (Switch?)

Danica

"Having some trouble with the Gunas and how they correspond to the Fortune card - looking for clarity...

They seem switched (the "somewhat different" Crowley mentions?) But why do it?"

maybe the three Gunas can not be found in 'pure' state on the rim of the weel, and we have them here mixed-up, interchanged - 'personalized' with the three figures depicted on the card.... focusing our consciousness only on the rim, we find ourselves sometimes as Typhon, sometimes as Hermanubis, sometimes as Sphinx - and this being the most balanced form of forces *, it's our way of achieving the Fifth in The Four - the point in the circle, point which is at intersection of the cross-lines - and thus 'arrive' at hub-consciousness, not being pulled here-and-there on the rim anymore.

the Gunas as such are principles, so they essentially do not belong to the world of Assiah - but at least Yetzirah (I would 'put' them in Briah, though, because they represent the threefold principle of all the manifestation and as such are some kind of 'roots' in creative sense ... like stable basis of solid matter created by geometrical triangle...). so when manifested can rarely (or not at all?) be found pure, as-a-single-substanced phenomena. for example, we can be verry angry (rajas) and full with fire, but at the same time inertial (tamas), like buried, not being able to move; eventually anger moves us, or inertia wins and we stay in tamas, but it's all a matter of ballance and the fine difference between the level of intensity of one over the other at a given moment (or period) of time; and during all this, we can be in a way aware of what is going on (sattvas part of rim-us). etc

so, basically, my conclusion is that the three figures on the card are not per se representatives of the Gunas, but of the Gunas as they are manifestetd on the border of the wheel, Gunas as we experience them on the rim of samsara-circle.

Scarecrow

"On the Tree of Life, Atu XIII and XV are symmetrically placed; they lead from Tiphareth, the human consciousness, to the spheres in which Thought (on the one hand) and Bliss (on the other) are developed. Between them, Atu XIV leads similarly to the sphere which formulates Existence. (See note on Atu X and arrangement.) - BOT, Devil"

Alright so what if the monkey on the left is the devil...
The croc on the right is the death card...

Here we have the formula ON... male and female.

The sphinx on the top then would be the Art card? As sulpher s/he almost seems more like the Tower, which the Art card crosses (bow and arrow) and the arrow in the Art card does represent directed Will.

So get the male monkey on the left to be mercury or the will begins with the "maleness" of each magician (the active)... YOD? The female croc is the co-equal mother Salt... HEH? And the sphinx is the "expansion of the consciousness" (MTP, ch3), the son, VAU... and the union of all 3 is HEH final...

I'm reaching. Feels like I'm making headway... but still too much reaching.

Jim Eshelman

I've always been uncertain about Crowley's attributions of these also, and mostly handled it by ignoring them; but, admittedly, he seemed quite decisive about them (whereas many other Book of Thoth remarks are toss-offs.

There is an error in the Atu X discussion, where "Atu II" appears in the book but "Atu I" is meant. That's probably a typesetting error rather than a brain fart.

But yes, generally, Typhon is the Sulphur idea (Rajas), not the Sphinx; so he is doing something different with his discussion. Nor does the Vision of the 4th Aethyr explain it.

ThelemicMage

I had to throw a few words into this very old post regarding Crowley's attributions of these three alchemical beings.

I believe this has to do not only with "new aeon" changes, but "new new aeon" changes.

We learn that Hathor is strongly associated with Fire, and not just in the new Aeon. I believe that Horus, being of the Air and too "fiery and manly", and his Completion in Ra Hoor Khuit, was transformed into the Sphinx by Hathor, (or one of the many other names she goes by.)

This would mean that an incredibly strong being of the Air has been transformed by the infinite circumference of femininity and by the Power thereof, to a being of fire. The sphinx is almost a lion.

In the book of going back by night, our old friend the stony sphinx goes into detail on this, and so does Crowley. I believe the book of going back by night to be a genuine piece of prophecy and by communication from the secret chiefs.

I can see some other patterns emerging here, like the continuum of "getting off of the softness", including the moving of the Earth into the West.
Here we have Tamas, associated with Set, who is normally Fire, but he is leaving the softness behind to flow with more powerful forces, ie the waters of Creation, keeping the element of salt while he does so. This screams evolution.

Just my 93 cents.

Tinman

I have no idea what you just said ThelemicMage.

Tinman

I didn't say I didn't like it, only that I don't understand it. And I appreciate the helpful pointers in remedying the latter.

ThelemicMage

I'm sorry if it's confusing.

Please read into the elemental attributes of all three of these, and then study into the natural progression of matter, as well as what we know about the evolution of the Earth and the universe itself.

You could make a quick table of all three and compare each different correspondence to the others and easily figure this out.

I've been up for 24 hours and I will respond later if need be.

Dar, everyone.

Tinman

To be more clear about where I'm lacking understanding so that you can better address each point individually (if you wouldn't mind doing obviously):

"I believe this has to do not only with "new aeon" changes, but "new new aeon" changes."

What is New New Aeon?

"We learn that Hathor is strongly associated with Fire, and not just in the new Aeon. I believe that Horus, being of the Air and too "fiery and manly", and his Completion in Ra Hoor Khuit, was transformed into the Sphinx by Hathor, (or one of the many other names she goes by.)"

This paragraph gives me trouble. Are you saying something symbolic? What does it mean that Horus is completed in RHK turned into the Sphinx by Hathor? Why do you think this? Based on what?

"This would mean that an incredibly strong being of the Air has been transformed by the infinite circumference of femininity and by the Power thereof, to a being of fire. The sphinx is almost a lion."

Are you equating Hathor with Nuit? Isn't the Sphinx a Lion/Bull/Angel/Eagle (Dragon)? So wouldn't it be just as true to say the Sphinx is almost a Bull?

"In the book of going back by night, our old friend the stony sphinx goes into detail on this, and so does Crowley. I believe the book of going back by night to be a genuine piece of prophecy and by communication from the secret chiefs. "

Goes into detail on what? And where does Crowley do so?

"I can see some other patterns emerging here, like the continuum of "getting off of the softness", including the moving of the Earth into the West."

What do these two terms mean to you? "Getting off of the softness". "Moving of the Earth into the West".

"Here we have Tamas, associated with Set, who is normally Fire, but he is leaving the softness behind to flow with more powerful forces, ie the waters of Creation, keeping the element of salt while he does so. This screams evolution."

So Tamas = Set = Water = Salt to you? And Tamas = Set used to = Fire. And this change screams evolution? What is changing? Are you being symbolic or are you saying a god somewhere has literally changed?

Jim Eshelman

I have to admit... I have exactly the same questions as Tinman.

ThelemicMage

I just woke up so I'll take this slow with a few points and then comment more as the ideas come back..

"New new aeon" means the aeon of Hrumachis, the sphinx. "Hathor" of the Aeon of Horus, performs the same work and transformation as "Ma'at", who is the force that helps transform the current Hadit of our universes (RHK) into the sphinx. Check the book of going back by night. The sphinx hints on what the past was and how the future became the present.

Horus is Horus of the two horizons. He is transmuted into the sphinx by his female counterpart, to be Hrumachis of the two horizons, but not having to move around as both Ra and Horus, but looking simultaneously into both horizons at once.

"Moving the Earth into the West" has to do with just that. Moving the Earth into the direction of the flow of the Sun. The completion of the great work by manifestation of the Sun in the Earth, (currently by the Beast and his lovely Bride,) involves "fixing" the Tree by filling in Da'at with the Tiphereth again by actually moving the Earth into the West.

"Getting off of the softness" is just that as well. Becoming not so dependent on "mommy" darkness which IS the Earth yet is also the huge black circle of darkness that comprises any space.

Basically what is being told to us is that we are half asleep being protected by the softness of Earth which starts any "soft" physical manifestation under our Lady Nuit.
I cannot think of a good reference, but Crowley goes deep into this in Astrological workings. I'll send you a couple books in pdf format if you wish just on this topic.

Reading over my comments on RHK and Hrumachis in my earlier post, I admit I worded things confusingly, as RHK is currently almost a kerub of Air, however it has been stated that Ra-Horus of the two horizons was too "intense" and "masculine" and was transformed into Ra-Hoor-Khuit by Khuit, one of the ancient names for Hathor, into a less "intense" being and someone more able to communicate something like the book of the law.

I have read Crowley directly comment on this idea as well, in more than one place.

You are totally correct when you state the sphinx combines the Kerub qualities of all four, and I might retract part of a sentence of my first post regarding this. I was probably only expressing part of my then-current thoughts to try to get a point across, I apologize. I was probably stoned and excited.

However, this makes my point easier to get across.

That said, if you take all of this into consideration, you can see the continuation and evolution of elements into higher states. This includes manifesting the three gunas and their alchemical counterparts as higher manifestations of themselves.

All right, my head his hurting. I will make a map and a chart and try to explain this further if you wish.

Oh, and there are two instances on your last question: Yes, a god has both literally changed, (evolved) into a higher state, RHK has evolved in to Hrumachis, (even Hrumachis says this), even as Ra-Horus evolves into RHK, even though he is a combination entity. And Yes, gods climb the Tree of Life just like we do, and take eachothers' jobs.

So, if we are in the element of Fire with Set as our current Hadit, then after all of the evolution from Malkuth to Kether, Set will move to the next greatest role on the Tree, being the Hadit of Air. We may be in a Hod projected into the obvious Fire, obvious because even after Set and Horus fighting for so long, Horus/Hoor Paar Kraat needs the beast of this Universe in Fire to help him manifest himself in the Earth with his lovely Bride, to move the Earth into the West and restore the Tree of Life.

Tinman

There is still so much of what is going on in your head that I'm not able to "get" from the words you are writing.

""New new aeon" means the aeon of Hrumachis, the sphinx. "Hathor" of the Aeon of Horus, performs the same work and transformation as "Ma'at", who is the force that helps transform the current Hadit of our universes (RHK) into the sphinx. Check the book of going back by night. The sphinx hints on what the past was and how the future became the present."

This seems to be founded upon nothing that I know from Thelema.

For example, Hrumachis is the initiating officer of the Aeon of Maat (which isn't here and now but in the future, at least, from my understanding of the Aeon's model presented to us by Crowley).

See: <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6285&p=38368&hilit=Hrumachis#p38368">viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6285&p=38368&hilit=Hrumachis#p38368</a>

"Hrumachis is the symbol of the dawn itself, i.e., of the occurrence of a next aeon per se. The Lord (or, actually, Lady) of the next aeon is, per Liber L., the double-wanded one, i.e., Maat."

Also, I wouldn't characterize Hadit as equal to "the 93 current" (if that is indeed the current you are referring to). Completely different things as I understand it.

Also, I have no idea what or who you have in you head turning into a sphinx but I guess I'm just lost right there... isn't it the initiate that turns themselves into a Sphinx?

I guess what my impression is, is that you have a unique idea of what the art on the Fortune card means, fueled by some Thelema, some Egyptian Book of the Dead, etc, but which isn't really "official" or based on anything Crowley says. Maybe I'm wrong.

ThelemicMage

"I guess what my impression is, is that you have a unique idea of what the art on the Fortune card means, fueled by some Thelema, some Egyptian Book of the Dead, etc, but which isn't really "official" or based on anything Crowley says. Maybe I'm wrong"

No, you are perfectly correct there.

Try to think of succession of power. You have the angry Jehovah, then his Son, Osiris, then his son, Horus, .. never directly referred to, but the same current of power. The same being re-manifesting themselves, via female consorts, after cosmic evolution.

RHK is part Khuit, part Ra, part Horus.

Now the female element is recognized as a separate "soul" than Ra and Horus, being the house of both Ra and Horus. I doubt, however, that Ra and Horus do not share the same "current" or, less explainable, "soul." Two separate souls with that kind of manly power would not manifest harmoniously in the same "body", despite how wonderful a woman they have for their "house."

Tinman

I'm going to refer to 777, which I'm sure you are familiar with, but if you aren't:

Osiris is listed, in Col XX, on level 10...malkuth. Ra is level 6, Horus level 5. (Please forgive the use of the term level, I'm apt to use row or frequency, but went with level). Crowley doesn't tabulate the name "Jehovah", but perhaps He could fit, within Col XXXVI, at the 2, 4 or 5 levels.

What I'm getting at is that Jehovah, Osiris, and Horus are not the same current of power. That isn't even the succession of Aeons.

So what rabbit hole have you gone down?

Ok - let me try to grok what you are saying:

You are saying that there is a cosmic power. I'm not clear how to relate to this Cosmic Power - I'm looking for a guide on the Tree of Life since it's a fairly useful tool for communicating ideas such as this one from one brain to another.
You are saying there is a Male cosmic power which has taken certain forms and has been evolving.
You are saying that the Male cosmic power has a "soul". (but there are multiple souls for one cosmic power?)
You are saying that there is a Female cosmic power which has a different "soul".
You are saying these cosmic souls manifest in a "body".

Alright so leaving aside the fact that I have no idea what you mean when you say "soul", or why you put "body" in quotes... to bring it back to the topic of this thread, what does this (and correct me on my points if I missed something) have to do with the Sattvas, Rajas, Tamas switch on the Fortune card?

Also, if Crowley isn't saying what you are saying, why would what you are saying be on Crowley's card?

ThelemicMage

You are correct on all numbered assumptions, but I doubt they have different "souls" per male power who has been evolving.

And yes, I believe he has a female consort that evolves with him in different states and levels of being.

I must defend my use of the word "current", since even as Crowley states, in his past life, Anhk af no Khonsu was of the same "current" as himself, the Beast 666. Two completely different Aeons, same current.

This is getting way out of the aspect of evolution of alchemical elements. The way I might explain myself a little later, (since I am late for something important,) is that the elements evolve themselves, just as we have through our lives. I am completely sure that the steadfast, aged souls, (of which you and I both know we are,) have been through many incarnations of being:

1)"Black" Race, attributed to element of Water
2)"Red" Race, attributed to element of Earth
3)"Yellow" Race, attributed to element of Air
4)"White" Race, attributed to element of Fire

[You can also see these manifested within the four horsemen of the evolution of the Universe within Revelations. Pale corresponds to "Yellow". The white horse is already mentioned. Plus, Air constitutes the cause of sorrow, death itself. Black holds the balances since water causes the balance between all things, as does air separate them simultaneously. Not much left to explain really, other than Earth, the god set fighting, instigates men to make war with one another.

The white horse is self-explainable. We have been conquering many people of different and same skin for thousands of years. It's our duty, you might say, while the emotional part was not wholly there all the time, no joke. But as crowley says, I ride upon the edge of the Gale, I swing my sword, strike, smite and prevail! All under True Will and Love, though.]

So, if your alchemical name is mercury, and mine is sulfur, you might be in black skin, and I might be in white skin. This is the current view. (I chose mercury because of your avatar's appearance.)

However, mercury might have been born in Japan a thousand years prior, and sulfur in South America. (This is a strange conversation, I must say that South Americans that I have met, known, and worked with have so much more Fire in them than almost any white person I've met, worked with, or known, outside of my family. And I take racial pride without bigotry very seriously.)

Have you ever noticed that there's two brick roads side by side in the motion picture, red and yellow. They tell her to follow the yellow brick road towards the emerald city. Where does the red brick road lead?
My guess, the majestic fields of red poppy where they would have been better off, not aging for the rest of their nodding lives. One gets used to the nod, and the sickness, but it's dangerous to mess around with witches or wizards who either want to kill you or send you back to a starving family in a drought in the middle of Nowhere, Kansas.

They should have killed the witch, taken her poppies and servants, and bent her servants to their Will.

Tinman

"Not much left to explain really"

I've been trying to come up with a way of writing a response to this which both leaves us both feeling happy, and ends the conversation. The reason for both is that you seem willing to engage in a respectful conversation, and for that I'm very pleased and appreciative of your time and effort, but that I'm not entirely sure you are saying anything other than telling me your imaginations.

I keep thinking "Method is science"... logic... and where is the logic? For example, when you were talking about the "other road" in the Wizard of Oz, I got excited. I looked up pictures, watched parts of the film... you know that red road either goes off screen as an actual road (couldn't tell) or it's just the part of the design that is there to make the Gold spiral path pop (figure and ground); but there is nowhere in that "system", in the movie, that talks about it going to

"the majestic fields of red poppy"
.
That "majestic fields" stuff you just made up, and ran with it.
I get the feeling all of your comments (races, elements evolving, cosmic man woman, etc) on this thread are in the same vein.

So carrying on the conversation, I don't think I'll get any closer to finding out why Crowley did what he did on the Fortune card is what I'm saying.

But still, thanks for the discussion Black/Red/Yellow/White brother from another mother.

ThelemicMage

I hear what you are saying, sir TinMan.

I try to not let my imagination go in a (semi?)-logical conversation such as this, but I had to throw some far-out concepts your way to try to connect the ideas of the progression of matter. That's all.

It was a great conversation to say the least. It has me thinking more and more about what else might change in alchemy. IE: if Crowley were Crowley today, would he see further changes in the future for such things? And if he did, would he even mention them, since they are not currently at this time progressed as such?

I tell you what. Make a few maps of the alchemical elements, and their correspondences, and make them from different angles. You are a bright chap. This is actually a pretty simple thing to ponder -- I get the supreme feeling you are trying to over-complicate a simple evolution of matter.

If my spirit was unable to check akashic records, I doubt I would answer when people call me by current name. So many names from the past, as well as the name of my HGA, undulates in my brain so that the most spiritual aspects of the lives I've led come together and meet to form my present way of thinking.

It is easy for initiates, very prone to success and progression in this business, to over-complicate simple ideas. I'm sure you will find your own answer as simply as you can add two and two.

It's like looking at one of those old 3-d stereogram pictures. If you look too far into the distance, or cross your eyes, you don't see the image. Look perfectly just past the image, (into it's future?), you get the 3-d image.

G'night, TinMan. I will protest the current bastardization of oil prices so you can sit, economically, in that field of poppies with the snowfall as long as you wish.

ThelemicMage

One concept that I must throw into the stew of this conversation:

Mercury, Sattvas, associated with preservation and fluidity, (mercurial waters of alchemical creation), is normally associated with Air, elementally. You can look at the hexagram and tree of life to see this clearly.

However, water is normally associated with Tamas, destruction, (vis 777 col LXIX.) This is an obvious evolution of the alchemical elements, (and standard 4-wind elements,) and not only that, a revealed constant interplay between them.

In the same column in 777, it is to be noted that Sattvas is normally associated with Air, key number 11. Tamas corresponds to Water and Earth in normal elemental cases.

It was only a matter of time before elemental Fire would be thrown into the dance of the alchemical evolution of the elements. This is proof, and is not to be ignored.

I sometimes playfully connect the doubt thrown around his work by the weak ones. Further research by myself always blasts away the falseness of false-falseness, something I knew would happen anyways, as I trust everything that man trusted himself to write down.

Christ. One thing you have to remember, is that he was not a normal man. He had spiritual connections through the past and the future that enabled him to know exactly what to write and when to write it. He cannot help if there are those who would doubt or give up half way and make their own errors in decisions. He expected that as well, and worded things thusly throughout the span of his work.

The man almost single-handedly brought a new Aeon into time and Creation. Well, Horus did most of the work, but who was the man responsible for killing the dying god and enabling the emergence of Horus himself? Crowley. (A name of a disciple comes to mind, for those who KNOW.)

I also cite the vision and the voice, as the Lion, devours Osiris the bull, then literally breathes the beginning of a new Universe into existence.

Let's not take this lightly nor shrug off decisions this god of a man made for us to trust him with. Divinity made for us to trust him with.

Again, I stress, map-making helps tremendously. Use 777, the book of Thoth, as well as everything you know or think you know about creation. Use a pencil, class. I'm not giving this one out.

Frater Zosimos

I'm a little surprised that no one else has commented on a fact that I believe is fairly obvious when you take a close look at the card: Hermanubis is nowhere to be found.

Crowley says Hermanubis is on there, and Hermanubis is certainly there in the Golden Dawn description of the cards. He's even found on the Rider-Waite Fortune card. But not on the Thoth version.

Hermanubis is a jackal-headed god, and not an ape. When I spotted this inconsistency, I looked high and low for any evidence that Hermanubis was ever depicted in a simian form, but wasn't able to find any. I can only find depictions of a human form with a canine head. The figure on the wheel is the Ape from the Magus card. So we still have an attribution to Mercury (and thus, Sattva), but not the way Crowley tells us.

I can't help wondering if there is a bit of a visual pun here. The Ape is the cynocephalus ape. Cynocephalus means "dog-headed," so perhaps we're to interpret the figure as "aping" the dog-headed god.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret this change. It may be an indication that there are even more blinds to be found on the found--the Ape of Thoth misleads.

The best I'm able to figure, per the BoT: "the Gunas revolve." I find it tremendously difficult to find a particular, definite Guna to attribute to any of the figures. Each can represent any of the gunas, depending on how you want to hash it out. One could spend a tremendous amount of time going round and round in circles trying to figure this card out, but the guna of each figure will continue to transform into the next guna as you consider the card closely. But we don't really want to be going in circles. From the list of short verses found at the end of the Book of Thoth with the common divinatory interpretations: "The axle moveth not; attain thou that."

ThelemicMage

Now you've GOT this Zosimos.

I bet if you understood exactly all questions, you could explain exactly what the revolution/evolution encompasses.

We must also remember that the ape of Thoth is not inherently misleading: He speaks directly the "word" of God "himself". This means that the words of exact translation are there, but the translation is in fact a horrible lessening or bastardization of the real truth. (vis Liber 419.)

We shall attain to the smooth point, where the wheel in fact looks like it is stopped, but the continuous cycles are still there.

You have pulled out many useful ideas for this thread.

Have you ever seen a wheel, that if it turns at the perfect pact, looks as if it is stopped?

That ape! Turning "pace" into "pact" as I explain myself.

People hear certain things, words, ideas, and mislead themselves with the very things. I cite "Across the Gulf", by Crowley.

In it, as Himself, Ankh af na Khonsu, he communicates the word of the Goddess, as she speaks from behind the veil. The people always take the prophecies too literally or too lightly, and end up profaning the Goddess' name for being a false-prophetess. They are tortured and killed with Magic and Might, of course, their entrails strewn about the outer courts. This is a perfect example.

Tinman

Frater Zosimos - I've also gone round and round with those three figures attempting to fit each of the gunas over each of them in turn. I get how that goes. And maybe that's the point... that may be the still point... things won't ever fit our ideal idea of how things should be. That in itself is a good tough lesson. But, the voice of doubt speaks up, what about the Major Arcana cards meant to represent each of the 3 gunas - do they revolve for you too? No they do not - or at least not to the degree that the beasts on the wheel do. For example, I can come up with an example of how The Empress could correspond to Rajas, but it feels like reaching. So are those correspondences set for you more clearly, as they are for me? Why? (attempting to answer this myself as well)

ThelemicMage

"I trust everything that man trusted himself to write down"

but if you have blind faith... where is your doubt?

From MWT: Chapter LXVII: Faith:

"Faith in its Meaning Number One was perfectly well defined by the schoolboy: "the faculty of believing that which we know to be untrue." It is at least the acceptance of any statement as true without criticism, examination, verification, or any other method of test. Faith of this sort is evidently the main symptom of the moron, the half-wit, the village idiot. It is this kind of faith upon the possession and exercise of which religious persons always insist as the first condition of salvation."