The Matter and Semantic of Spirits.
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@Old MacDonald 420 said
"I'm trying to understand what you mean by man ascending into angels as "souls of flame". I ask because these read like metaphorical descriptions, as often does much of the tree, which I have found this leads to confusion amongst the adherents of the tree as to those on the outside."
A mentioning by me was not, the "ascension of man into angels" at Ishim level.
You will recall, on the tree of life, that angels are of the Yetziratic element, Air. This is levels 4-9, or Chesed to Yesod.
Therefore, you will not find a full angel, only aliens and archetypes, before Yesod. Man is not angel, DMT elves are not angel, (though perfect archetypes for Malkuth, the level of infinite life-after-death of mankind. "You shall find a life that is like death, or a death that is infinite.") Ishim isn't even an angel, just a fully evolved basic being, a free soul of fire.
At level 9, Yesod, you have the first actual angelic beings, the Cherubim. They are not flying/shítting babies with diapers on. They are late teenager/adult beings with six wings and Gabriel is in charge of this host of heaven.
Same thing with beings from 4-8, Beni Elohim, Elohim, Malakhim, Seraphim, Chasmalim.
So Ishim are from the Earth portion of the tree, at the bottom at Malkuth. Angels are of Air at four through nine. Thrones, Wheels, and Holy Living Creatures "Chayot Ha Kodesh", make up 3 to and 1, respectively. The element of thrones pertains to Babylon, water, Binah, and even Briah to an extent, seeing as watery elements always correspond to a "cup", "seat/throne", something that bears or holds divinity in some way.
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@ThelemicMage said
"
A mentioning by me was not, the "ascension of man into angels" at Ishim level."ahh, ok perhaps i misunderstood you, my apologies.
"
You will recall, on the tree of life, that angels are of the Yetziratic element, Air. This is levels 4-9, or Chesed to Yesod."
noted
"
Therefore, you will not find a full angel, only aliens and archetypes, before Yesod. Man is not angel, DMT elves are not angel, (though perfect archetypes for Malkuth, the level of infinite life-after-death of mankind. "You shall find a life that is like death, or a death that is infinite.") Ishim isn't even an angel, just a fully evolved basic being, a free soul of fire."
hmm, my understanding is that according to the legends, Ishim are guardian angels and this was how I understood your meaning. Are you saying Ishim are more like secret chiefs or third order intelligences?
"
At level 9, Yesod, you have the first actual angelic beings, the Cherubim. They are not flying/shítting babies with diapers on. They are late teenager/adult beings with six wings and Gabriel is in charge of this host of heaven. "
noted
"
Same thing with beings from 4-8, Beni Elohim, Elohim, Malakhim, Seraphim, Chasmalim. "
noted
"
So Ishim are from the Earth portion of the tree, at the bottom at Malkuth. Angels are of Air at four through nine. Thrones, Wheels, and Holy Living Creatures "Chayot Ha Kodesh", make up 3 to and 1, respectively. The element of thrones pertains to Babylon, water, Binah, and even Briah to an extent, seeing as watery elements always correspond to a "cup", "seat/throne", something that bears or holds divinity in some way.
93 93 93"
so what do aliens, cherubim, angels, ishim, and spirits all share in common? you mention that all of these are an illusion, along with human beings - but clearly human beings are of quite a distinct order of illusion all together would you not agree?
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I agree...
but "spirits" can mean almost anything. They can mean the illusory spiritual and personified qualities of our own illusion.
Aliens are the same, though they come in many forms just like humans do. For instance, a human being on a planet only a hop skip and a jump away is still considered an "alien."
Cherubim are angels of the Yetziratic level. All actual "angels" are of levels 4-9, only, the Yetziratic portion of the tree.
Ishim are simply fully evolved basic Malkuth-level 10 beings. They are without the wings it takes to ascend to levels 9-4. I'll give you a secret. Cherubim and Seraphim have been identified as six-winged. All the other levels of 4-9 are also six-winged, though it is not mentioned in books to my knowledge. Yetziratic beings, when looked at fully without camoflauge or hiding a dimension of themselves, have six wings.
This pertains specifically to the six numbers of four to nine, in that there are a total of six levels, which is where the design of their "flying" ability comes from.G'night.
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@ThelemicMage said
"I agree...
but "spirits" can mean almost anything. They can mean the illusory spiritual and personified qualities of our own illusion. "
Right now, I am sort of lumping all non material phenomenal intelligences as 'spirits' which includes angels, gods, etc etc just to keep it simple. I do this because all of these share something in common, and that is what I am trying to understand. I, like many here, have had experiences of 'spirits' and I, like many here, do not place any objective or subjective validity to these experiences.
"
Aliens are the same, though they come in many forms just like humans do. For instance, a human being on a planet only a hop skip and a jump away is still considered an "alien." "
here it seems that you are equating form with illusion - is there no independent substance or intelligence to spirits? This is a great philosophical question in my opinion. Are they simply apart of our psyche, our unconsciousness, that we can tap into, making them nothing more than a dynamic of human intelligence - or are they a separate order of sentience all together? I would imagine illusion comes into play either interacting with spirits or my girlfriend, so here I am seeking to make distinctions inside of the illusion. At the end of the day, any illusion is a 'real' illusion and thus references something shared and therefore objective in some sense.
"
Cherubim are angels of the Yetziratic level. All actual "angels" are of levels 4-9, only, the Yetziratic portion of the tree."
noted - I include this order of beings to share something in common with all non corporeal intelligence
"
Ishim are simply fully evolved basic Malkuth-level 10 beings. They are without the wings it takes to ascend to levels 9-4. I'll give you a secret. Cherubim and Seraphim have been identified as six-winged. All the other levels of 4-9 are also six-winged, though it is not mentioned in books to my knowledge. Yetziratic beings, when looked at fully without camoflauge or hiding a dimension of themselves, have six wings.
This pertains specifically to the six numbers of four to nine, in that there are a total of six levels, which is where the design of their "flying" ability comes from. "what do all non corporeal intelligences share in common?
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@ldfriend56 said
"
@Bereshith said
"
Malkuth - physical results, sounds, materializations
Yesod - Visions, dreams
Hod - scientific knowledge, ideas
Netzach - desires"
this is where the tree breaks down for me, and I wish to see where my error is. You put 'ideas' in 'Hod' - yet to me, that's all the tree is is an idea of how to organize experiences and therefore, ideas are in every serphirot. "ideas about experiences' are still ideas, no?"
I'm confused. Isn't what you're looking for "an idea of how to organize experiences" of spirits? For a moment, forget the Tree of Life. How would your own map avoid the same problem you see with the Tree?
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@Bereshith said
"
I'm confused. Isn't what you're looking for "an idea of how to organize experiences" of spirits? For a moment, forget the Tree of Life. How would your own map avoid the same problem you see with the Tree?"
yes. my map makes a few assumptions.
1.)Spirits exist in some sense (as separate non corporeal intelligences with their own varying hierarchy or as dynamics of some unknown component of the human psyche, collective or individual or both)
2.)As spirits exist in some sense, so there must be a variation to their interaction in phenomenology, i.e. what 'forms' do spirits take in our experience?
3.)There is a relationship between ideas and spirits - we commonly share experiences of having ideas - and having ideas could potentially be one dynamic of experience with spirits we all share in common. the qualia of ideas is perhaps shaped by the qualia of spirit.
4.)The distinctions of qualia of spirits, ideas is what I seek to map.
5.)Since I want my map to be as objective as possible, I only wish to make boundaries by shared information and shared experience.
Thanks for helping me define this better, truly. Does this help and do you see why the tree of life is not the map I am looking for? The tree of life maps ideas about spirits and experiences based on cultural artifacts and since those artifacts are cultural, they are not universal and I found the tree to be a source of wide speculation and different interpretations amongst different schools. My map is philosophical.
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@Old Macdonald the Poppy Farmer said
"what do all non corporeal intelligences share in common?"
Well, my fellow seeker into knowledge, it seems as though adepts like Crowley distinguish the body from the spirit in such ways for a reason:
"After attainment, the body is of no more use than the dust of the floor."The reason is so we can look up instead of thinking down and falling into the dusk of death.
Lest we not remember that EVERY thought we have is played out in our own universe, including our collective universe. So, if you have some fear of death from your auntie dying when you were seven, then that fear will play out sometime later on in life for the original thought was there.
However, the lower bodies evolve with the higher forms as well, which is why they have Earth holding their actual form in the first place, including Cherubim up to Chasmalim, even Thrones, Wheels, and HLCreatures. We should not forget that Earth is grown through, twisted, branched its way up the tree just as water has so exquisitely and miraculously fallen from the top of the tree.
I mean, a tree in itself is mostly Earthen wood when all is said and done. All the elements are patterned out with each other all the way up and down the tree. The sephiroth are projected into the four elements and winds, and the universes even as we see them are not separate.
For Christ's sakes, the God of the element of Air actually came here, rigged up an elaborate Osiris setup two thousand years ago, made everyone think "they" had killed him, when in fact he snuck his adepts, (disciples), into the places of the "soldiers" to do the dirty work. He pretty much did it to himself. They found a "Gospel of Judas" that had been in the area somewhere and has been tested and found to be written right after the time that both Yeshuah and Judas died, though with the stars and the zodiac even appearing in the wrong places, (our man Crowley used Tropical oh so successfully, and so do I,) it just might truly date right on time, and explains how Yeshuah himself asked dear ol' Judas, (one of his closest disciples, no doubt,) to turn him into the Romans.
Now we have Horus and that is a rather intense miracle of another story.
Besz, Apophis, and our dear Lucifer are certainly not forgotten, but celebrated in this elaborate setup.
"Music, Dancing, Silence and Stillness," are our sacraments even at the death of the Sun, by Apophis, Besz, and Satan-Typhon, respectively. Our universes commingle in the same way that the elements do up the tree.This really is a rather important time to be alive, seeing as how they are to begin dancing again, the door was flung wide open not too long ago, but closed again due to the "sanity" of the mediocre, common (vomit) human being. Lysergic Acid Diethylamide is the sacrament that spans universes past universes, not just one good look like our sacred manna gives us. This was the turning point and mark of the door flying open back then. You cannot stop a flash of lightening, nor even cover your ears to protect you from the vibration of the thunder.
It would be wise of one to learn how to dance.
Try a bellyful of Nuit's sacraments repeatedly until you can walk around on them, then pull out your wand, finger, (or member,) and start dancing with one foot at a time. There's no ruby slippers to click together to get us out of this one.
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"Well, my fellow seeker into knowledge, it seems as though adepts like Crowley distinguish the body from the spirit in such ways for a reason:
"After attainment, the body is of no more use than the dust of the floor.""kind of you to take me as a seeker of knowledge. I'm up to my ears in knowledge, this puppy is going for the understanding and thanks for being here with me on this journey. You seem to have quite a rich inner life
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BTW you currently have 93 posts.
I have been noticing serious Cabalistic manifestations of this number as of late.
You should recognize this and see if it manifests in your life.
In all seriousness, 93, or
"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law; Love is the Law, Love under Will",
should be a constant manifestation in the life of any serious student.93
93/93 -
@Mr hoot and come in said
"
In all seriousness, 93, or
"Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law; Love is the Law, Love under Will",
should be a constant manifestation in the life of any serious student.93
93/93"and here we find perfect agreement
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@winner, best hair cut, 1998 said
"
but "spirits" can mean almost anything. "
i suppose 'spirits' can just mean about anything and the list of what spirits can mean is part of the list I am collecting. I must say I have been intrigued by a few mentions of 'planetary intelligence' on this forum and reading how they are distinguishable from spirits, maybe you or another can oblige, thank you in advance.
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From what I understand, planetary intelligences are on a different level than the names or spirits of the planets themselves.
For instance, Venus is the visible name of the planet itself. Her intelligence is Hagiel.
Her spirit's name is Qedemel. Her Olympic planetary spirit's name is Hagith.It kind of like Hathor is the house and wife of Horus, and Ma'at is the adjuster of balance that steadies him into the transformation into Hrumachis, the double-wanded one. Horus himself says he holds the wand of double-power. It's not too far-fetched to see how the greatest "Nuit" and "Hadit" of our Universe are merging as one being and will encompass the next aeon.
It is my belief that the spirits, names, and all intelligences of the planets are one, in essence. The same way that the "beast" of the Earth's, (or of the Air, Water, or sacred Fire,) heads are one being, although on this level they are named differently such as Amaimon, Auriel, Phorlakh, Ghob, et cetera.
In the Lust card of the sacred Tarot of Photeth, the beast of the Earth, in the form of a Lion, with seven heads, has Phorlakh with his head turned away, with "four locks" of hair gently curving down as the hint of all hints. Crowley and Frieda were guided by much more than mere pure inspiration. What they did with the Tarot is divine in every aspect as literal pictures of the Book of the Law.
Now you won't hear the "beast" of the Air or Fire in revelations, for there is a great secret regarding the two witnesses and the crowned and conquering child -- however it is as simple as opening up Liber 777 and reading the names of their seven heads, Table II. The sun and moon conjoined with the two witnesses is the symbol of the Aeon, which is also the "mark of the beast". It hides a secret 93 and 666 in it's symbolism.
One would wish to look at these things with an open mind, always with the thought of God being one in everything, and to separate not, for thereby cometh hurt. (Book of the Law.) Things flow perfectly when this is realized.
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@ViejoAmigo56 said
"
Thanks for helping me define this better, truly. Does this help and do you see why the tree of life is not the map I am looking for? The tree of life maps ideas about spirits and experiences based on cultural artifacts and since those artifacts are cultural, they are not universal and I found the tree to be a source of wide speculation and different interpretations amongst different schools. My map is philosophical.
"Ehhh... Not really. But I don't mind giving up on it.
So, why not brainstorm?
Physical Manifestations:
(five senses)- Visual
- Auditory
- Olfactory
- Gustatory
- Tactile
Emotional Manifestations:
(which organization fits with your philosophical approach?)Cognitive Manifestations:
(How are you thinking about this? You want to start with a list of "-ologies" or....?) -
@Epic Dungeon Master said
"From what I understand, planetary intelligences are on a different level than the names or spirits of the planets themselves.
For instance, Venus is the visible name of the planet itself. Her intelligence is Hagiel.
"I'm really hoping someone here can show some clear understanding on the distinction between an intelligence and a spirit. To me it sounds like an intelligence is a POV, where as spirits serve the POV , based on what I am reading here on this forum. In this light, what would 'intelligence' be? Defining intelligence itself is one of the biggest hurdles in many a field of science.
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@hombre said
"
Ehhh... Not really. But I don't mind giving up on it.
So, why not brainstorm? "
what a wonderful idea - this can be a collective work, no doubt.
But since my map is ultimately a map of ontology, and I want my map to reach for completeness, elegance, and be holistic, we have to be very careful about our language.
for example
"
Physical Manifestations:
(five senses)- Visual
- Auditory
- Olfactory
- Gustatory
- Tactile
"
What is physical about the experience of the senses? To me the experience of light, sound, smells, touch, taste are just as abstract and illusory, non material as the experience of spirits. The only distinction is that we have physical sense organs, which are manifestations. These physical organs just give us 'content' to experience. the experience itself? this I imagine is where you would put malkuth, no? Experience arrived via the content and media of the five senses.
So to me, the foundation is experience, consciousness, being. That to me is a state beyond language, even 'every day' being. We just use language to reference it, make sense so far?
So experience and the content and medium of experience must be distinguished. The experience of the physical may not be physical at all (this is the 'hard problem' of consciousness in philosophy and neurobiology)
Anything experienced has existence in some sense. This existence may be physical, imaginary, metaphysical, etc. Unicorns may exist as creative thought forms, but they have existence none the less.
The qualities of experience are then distinguished by being and ideas about being. then environment. we experience being and have ideas about being in two distinguishable environments, a share objective environment we all participate in equally (i.e. the physical universe) and a subjective environment which is our individual state of being, which also includes emotions naturally.
this is my foundation so far....make sense?
"
Emotional Manifestations:
(which organization fits with your philosophical approach?) "Emotions manifesting as..experiences or behaviors? Emotions to be are a component of 'feeling' and our subjective environment, they are personal and the list is just a set of ideas about being and feeling and should not be confused as those experiences - if that makes any sense
There is a relationship, no doubt, to various states of being, environment, and the ideas that surround them, as you are about to breach below...
"
Cognitive Manifestations:
(How are you thinking about this? You want to start with a list of "-ologies" or....?)"Ahhh! 'Thinking' and conceptualizing' - this cannot be listed without it's counterpart 'intuition' or inner knowingness, inspiration in my opinion. To me this is just 'thinking and feeling' manifesting as arts and sciences. This experience we attribute to our subjective environment but is only possible inside of interaction with our shared environment (culture)
which leads as next I guess to spirits and how they appear to us.
Are spirits just ideas or are ideas just spirits? in my map above, you see how they easily and neatly occupy the same environment....just the distinction needs to be made between them.
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Oldfriend56 -- you are truly an entity after my own heart. Keep going!
Polite and positive. And on topic with semantics!
But, as you know, all arguments are circular when dealing with the topic, correct? That is the nature of consciousness, is it not? What is it that you're driving at, though? It remains unclear to me. Please explain if you have the desire or wish to forsake the economics of energy.
Memes and spirits? Do you see it as aspects of the same thing, only from the perspective of different planes? Doesn't this always lead to confusion?
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@Frater 639 said
"Oldfriend56 -- you are truly an entity after my own heart. Keep going! "
thank you for your support good frater!
"
Polite and positive. And on topic with semantics!
"thank you! nice to see someone around here has an eye for talent
"
But, as you know, all arguments are circular when dealing with the topic, correct? "
The topic being 'consciousness' specifically? if so, I would say I always find enjoyment in seeing how 'discussions' on the topic produce contradictions, and if that is what you mean, then yes. But I am not sure if this is a 'law' of the landscape, however, that discussions must produce contradictions and become circular. I want my map to be consistant and contain no contradictions but allow for a 'transcendent' to be distinguished and, most importantly, objective.
"That is the nature of consciousness, is it not? "
Personally I believe consciousness is the transcendent to the physical and because of this, likely to produce contradictions in arguments and discussions, quite a 'hard' problem indeed. I enjoy the sport of the discussion around it.
"
What is it that you're driving at, though? It remains unclear to me."
My apologies if this is not clear, I attribute it to my own limits in explaining this landscape. I am creating a 'map' of spirits and ideas which fits into a larger map of consciousness and the physical universe. This map is really just a metaphor for understanding and hopefully, wisdom.
"
Please explain if you have the desire or wish to forsake the economics of energy. "
not sure what this means?
"
Memes and spirits? Do you see it as aspects of the same thing, only from the perspective of different planes? "
Currently, yes I am seeing as an shared aspect of one phenomenon. Like many here on this forum, I have a life of experiences between exalted states of being mixed with interactions of 'ah-ha!'s' (inspirational ideas, creative concepts, etc) and more direct encounters with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) 'intelligences' of a non corporeal reality.
What is intriguing to me more than spirits and their nature is the nature of ideas themselves. Ideas are shared amongst all of us, regardless of philosophical, religious, or secular leanings. We all share ideas in common and ideas are just as, if not more, mysterious in nature than spirits. Unless of course they are the same thing. Which at this point I am leaning towards they are. This may not bring any more light to ideas and spirits, but approaching them as the same phenomenon from two distinct points of view creates a larger mystery and set of questions regarding humanity and our role in the universe - which is also a very strong aspect of my 'map'
"
Doesn't this always lead to confusion?"I certainly hope not
I think the confusion lay not so much in confusing the 'planes' but confusing the 'environments'; meaning - we confuse ideas about our shared environment (physical universe) with ideas about our subjective environment (consciousness, being and ideas about spirits, gods, etc) and there is where the confusion lay. -
@ldfriend56 said
"thank you! nice to see someone around here has an eye for talent "
Very talented and very polite. There is enjoyment when seeing the universal aspects of relating to others.
@ldfriend56 said
"The topic being 'consciousness' specifically? if so, I would say I always find enjoyment in seeing how 'discussions' on the topic produce contradictions, and if that is what you mean, then yes. But I am not sure if this is a 'law' of the landscape, however, that discussions must produce contradictions and become circular. I want my map to be consistant and contain no contradictions but allow for a 'transcendent' to be distinguished and, most importantly, objective."
No, when dealing with the intellect, all arguments can be circular and reduced to "not that" -- therefore, your truth AND my truth is relative. I understand the aim for objectivity; however, when dealing with YOUR map, I find it difficult to get past Berkeley -- you mentioned the five senses yourself. And these senses always will be subjective, do you agree? Unless you can shed identity? THEN WHAT? We can agree on an objective reality, but it will always only be collective subjectivity. And this is a meme.
After that, if you'll forgive the linear time landscape, do you still "see" a perceived and the perceiver, when recollecting or projecting? Is this subjective to you? Is this your map?
@ldfriend56 said
"Personally I believe consciousness is the transcendent to the physical and because of this, likely to produce contradictions in arguments and discussions, quite a 'hard' problem indeed. I enjoy the sport of the discussion around it."
What makes you believe this? Is this an objective view? Consciousness has physical and transcendent to the physical aspects -- do you think it to be a dichotomy?
@ldfriend56 said
"What is intriguing to me more than spirits and their nature is the nature of ideas themselves. Ideas are shared amongst all of us, regardless of philosophical, religious, or secular leanings. We all share ideas in common and ideas are just as, if not more, mysterious in nature than spirits. Unless of course they are the same thing. Which at this point I am leaning towards they are. This may not bring any more light to ideas and spirits, but approaching them as the same phenomenon from two distinct points of view creates a larger mystery and set of questions regarding humanity and our role in the universe - which is also a very strong aspect of my 'map'"
Why lean toward anything? Why not simply adopt your POV to be in right relation? Do you think there to be one true answer, or is the truth dynamic and relative to any given POV?
@ldfriend56 said
"This may not bring any more light to ideas and spirits, but approaching them as the same phenomenon from two distinct points of view creates a larger mystery and set of questions regarding humanity and our role in the universe - which is also a very strong aspect of my 'map'"
It seems here that you are not leaning toward anything. I think not reducing everything into false dichotomies is very important.
@ldfriend56 said
"I think the confusion lay not so much in confusing the 'planes' but confusing the 'environments'; meaning - we confuse ideas about our shared environment (physical universe) with ideas about our subjective environment (consciousness, being and ideas about spirits, gods, etc) and there is where the confusion lay."
In this context, I see "planes" and "environments" to be the same thing. I agree wholeheartedly.
So, these "ideas, spirits, etc.", if they are in different "environments", you state about sharing them -- does this happen materially? Yes, it does -- in a strict neurobiological sense. It also happens in the "world of ideas" -- relative to the perceiver and perceived. So, here again, we have an example of the duality (and, in a broader sense, unity) of the subject/object. It is not a matter of either/or -- it is a matter of SCALE and IDENTIFICATION. What do you think?
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@Frater 639 said
" There is enjoyment when seeing the universal aspects of relating to others.
"indeed! let's get right into it, this is going to be fun!
"No, when dealing with the intellect, all arguments can be circular and reduced to "not that" "
Not sure exactly what you mean by 'intellect' - however I understand the flaw you bring up. I relate to bivalent, dualistic, or Aristotelian logical reasoning. But your also addressing the 'conflict of idea' - that very nature of conceptual reality, that all ideas are in conflict with one another and every concept as an opposite which seeks to obliterate it. (truly 'wars which are in heaven', no?)
"-- therefore, your truth AND my truth is relative."
there is your truth and my truth, sure, but then there is also OUR truth, which is our objective and shared environment. that's a very distinct truth value. For example, our truth exists in this very sentence and I predict with 100% accuracy that you will agree with me that the word at the end of this sentence is the word pickle.
"I understand the aim for objectivity; however, when dealing with YOUR map, I find it difficult to get past Berkeley -- you mentioned the five senses yourself. And these senses always will be subjective, do you agree? "
the senses will always provide BOTH objective and subjective information at ONCE! It is only our thinking minds that have to sift through the mysterious information and place it in it's proper sphere of relevance. Our five senses just help us navigate the mystery inside and outside. We only know what is true, even the fact that we exist, because of the exchange of information between POV's. All POV's will contain some objective information, some relative or false information, and some mysterious information where the distinction cannot be made objectively.
"Unless you can shed identity? THEN WHAT? We can agree on an objective reality, but it will always only be collective subjectivity. And this is a meme. "
I think this is part of the solution, and not the problem. I believe that our internal environment, the 'experience' of the 5 senses and beyond, is a unique truth value and our shared environment another unique truth value. One provides a subjective or relative truth that can function as an objective true, but may be delusion, or illusion, or insight, or any number of potential POV's - however the information that the collection of 'experiences' share back and forth with each other is the juicy 'true' and only what I mean by objective or objective environment. Objective reality and environment is just the reality we all can agree on - and all human beings are in a state of 93% perfect agreement all the time because of it
So you say 'then what?' - well if optimized properly, we can have cool things like global problem solving and resolution, advancements in the arts and sciences, extended life, health, happiness, etc etc.
"After that, if you'll forgive the linear time landscape, do you still "see" a perceived and the perceiver, when recollecting or projecting? Is this subjective to you? Is this your map?"
I definitely see a collection of us - yes, sharing both relative and objective information through the conflict of idea which potentially can lead to our liberation, or destruction, depending on how we play it. 'perceived and perceiver' is useful in some environments and not useful in others. The one truth with a capitol T that I can say is true for the most absolute certainty is that I, ....and you, exist! If both you and I exist, then certain other things must come to follow because of it, and one of those things is an objective and shared reality that we project our relative reality onto.
I said: Personally I believe consciousness is the transcendent to the physical and because of this, likely to produce contradictions in arguments and discussions, quite a 'hard' problem indeed. I enjoy the sport of the discussion around it.
"
What makes you believe this? Is this an objective view? Consciousness has physical and transcendent to the physical aspects -- do you think it to be a dichotomy? "
I believe this to be a mystery more than a truth, to clarify - but I believe that consciousness is likely to be a transcendent of the physical because that is how we experience it to be and there just is a very simple and clear distinction between the experience of information and the information itself that cannot be ignored or denied and that this remains true in both western philosophy and eastern philosophy and that this is an objective distinction. Is it a dichotomy or the union of a dichotomy? That's very mysterious territory! I dont have an answer there - but I believe it is very objective and rational to say "hey this is very mysterious here and we should be careful not to project our own delusion and sense of reason onto this mystery" - but we cannot deny the distinction either, we have to address it, experience it, understand it, use it, etc etc.
"
Why lean toward anything? Why not simply adopt your POV to be in right relation? Do you think there to be one true answer, or is the truth dynamic and relative to any given POV?"
I believe it is a combination of both! I lean in the direction of my intuition always
I seek my map to be objective and I believe it is my true will to make such an objective map.
Remember, objective to me just means the reality we all can agree on - and that to me signals the mystery more so than just our own individual projections and courses. We are all sharing in a journey together, relating to one another - expanding into infinite space together, this cannot be discounted.....this is the body of Nuit, no?
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I think not reducing everything into false dichotomies is very important.
"My own personal work is uniting the opposites which I am sure you can relate to. I believe on/off aristolian logical reason is faulty, however I can be very rational in explaining how I come to that conclusion! And I also don't discard it, it has it's relevance - and computers are one of them.
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@ldfriend56 said
"I think the confusion lay not so much in confusing the 'planes' but confusing the 'environments'; meaning - we confuse ideas about our shared environment (physical universe) with ideas about our subjective environment (consciousness, being and ideas about spirits, gods, etc) and there is where the confusion lay."
In this context, I see "planes" and "environments" to be the same thing. I agree wholeheartedly.
"coolness
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So, these "ideas, spirits, etc.", if they are in different "environments", you state about sharing them -- does this happen materially? Yes, it does -- in a strict neurobiological sense. It also happens in the "world of ideas" -- relative to the perceiver and perceived. So, here again, we have an example of the duality (and, in a broader sense, unity) of the subject/object. It is not a matter of either/or -- it is a matter of SCALE and IDENTIFICATION. What do you think?"
me likey!
going to let that settle in a bit too!
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sorry about the double post!