Vision work questions

IAO131

@Daegal said

"93

This may seem/be somewhat of a newbie question, but oh well lol. I continue to struggle with understanding "how" to know we have had a vision or not. I still have trouble with confidence in what exactly im looking for. For example, is a "day dream" as in a guided visualization, or otherwise structured visualisation a vision? Or is it something much more tangible as in an actual appearing "object" in a bowl of ink etc.? What am I truly looking for? Is a somewhat suprising or random "imaginary visual" that pops in my head a vision? Perhaps this is only something we see appear in the body of light, with practice? Can anyone help me understand a little more and a good technique they found that worked? Thank you, I appreciate the help.

93"

93 Daegal et al,

You said you "still have trouble with confidence in what exactly" you are looking for. This is a common problem with virtually every occultist, although I would actually say that it shows a healthy skepticism rather than it being a 'problem' per se.

I would personally say that all the things you listed - daydream, guided visualization, structured visualization, tangible images appearing, and the body of light - are all "visions" to different degrees, as mentioned by others here. I personally believe that the source of the material of visions/scrying is the unconscious. The unconscious is also the source of reverie, fantasy, daydreaming, normal nighttime dreams, nightmares, intuition, psychedelic visions, and psychosis. The magician is one who consciously facilitates the release of these unconscious contents and integrates them into her life through "love under will" - i.e. through union with them in a way whereby she may learn and grow and more fully actualize her potential as a Willful being.

As for techniques, it is often easier to get results if you have 2 people, a Magus and a Seer. The Magus can banish, invoke, et cetera while the Seer remains seated. The formula I have been using which has been good is (1) Banish, (2) Invoke, (3) Barbarous Words. The Banishing is usually LBRP. The invocation may include a text/poem/paean to the "energy" intended to be invoked (or more formal ritualistic invocations through Pentagram/Hexagram rituals). The Barbarous Words are taken from Liber Samekh ('Spirit' section) in order to allow for the Seer to enter a non-rational state of mind, using the words to make the vision more concrete. The Magus can then help navigate the Seer's world by asking the Seer to describe what is happening/being seen and to ask the Seer questions.

If you want a practice that can help your functioning within this 'astral plane,' I highly recommend checking out and trying Music-guided Visualization, which was written up by a Thelemite who is well-versed in scrying & visions. This practice helps to work the muscles of scrying to help make the actual scrying much more vivid, just like one would do weight training to increase one's performance in one's sport of choice.

Good luck, have fun, and Do what thou wilt.

93 93/93

_____

Hi Daegal, I've been struggling with some of the same questions since beginning my own scrying practice about 8 or 9 months ago. This quote from Crowley's Notes for an Astral Atlast was particularly helpful to me (the whole work is fantastic, though):

"Now the proof that one is in contact with an independent entity depends on a sensation which ought to be unmistakeable if one is in good health. One ought not to be liable to mistake one's own sensible impressions for somebody else's! It is only Man's incurable vanity that makes the Astral "Strayed Reveller" or the mystic confuse his own drunken babble with the voice of the Most High.

The essence of the right sensation consists in recognition of the reality of the other Being. There will be as a rule some element of hostility, even when the reaction is sympathetic. One's "soul-mate" (even) is not thought of as oneself, at first contact.

One must therefore insist that any real appearance of the Astral Plane gives the sensation of meeting a stranger. One must accept it as independent, be it Archangel or Elf, and measure one's own reaction to it. One must learn from it, though one despise it; and love it, however one loathe it.

One must realize, on writing up the record, that the meeting has effected a definite change in oneself. One must have known and felt something alien, and not merely tried on a new dress.

There must always be some slight pang of pain in a true Astral Vision; it hurts the Self to have to admit the existence of a not-Self; and it taxes the brain to register a new thought. This is true at the first touch, even when exaltation and stimulation result from the joy of making an agreeable contact."

When I first read the passage I had no idea what he was talking about it. I had had a few encounters with what seemed to be external beings and never felt any of those things, so I largely forgot about that section. And then one day I had a scrying experience that was quite different in character from the others. While describing in my record how I felt embarassmed and awkward in front of the Angel the passage suddenly flashed through my mind in one of those "Ohhh! That's what he meant!" moments. The difference between the two experiences was qualitatively different and unmistakable.

_____

@IAO131 said

"As for techniques, it is often easier to get results if you have 2 people, a Magus and a Seer. "
Yes, very good advice. My first two or three scrying succeses (calling Enochian angels) were in a group. After our first few experiments we actually started using three seers instead of just one (we're a group of four), which actually works rather well. If one person isn't getting anything others might, which helped me relax and not feel like everyone was counting on me to produce a result. And comparing multiple visions from the same invocation is rather interesting (though I'd reccomend writing your record before sharing, they have a tendency to blend together during discussion and seem more uniform than they perhaps were).

We also noticed an interesting tendency for the visions to be sequential (that is, as soon as one person's vision wraps up, another begins). I'm interested to see if that would be different if a force were invoked rather than a named entity.

I've noticed however, that more recently I've gotten better results working solo. Doing the call or invocation myself seems to establish a stronger link with the force/entity.

@IAO131 said

" The Barbarous Words are taken from Liber Samekh ('Spirit' section) in order to allow for the Seer to enter a non-rational state of mind, using the words to make the vision more concrete. "

Hmm, I'd never thought about it that way. I assume Enochain would have a similar effect (unless you've actually learned the language!). I've noticed that the Magus' speech seems to be the door into the altered state. That is, concentrating on simply listening passively to the call/invocation usually produces some kind of (almost hallucinatory) shift in the character of the voice, and then the vision begins. Have you noticed anything like that when entering a "non-rational state of mind"?

Corvinae

I just wanted to say thank you very much for the link to the musicial practice. This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about using for my childrens musicial development, exposing them to a variety of different cultural music, but with the goal of allowing them thier own creative freedom to explore the sounds.

Great practice!

@IAO131 said

"
@Daegal said
"93

This may seem/be somewhat of a newbie question, but oh well lol. I continue to struggle with understanding "how" to know we have had a vision or not. I still have trouble with confidence in what exactly im looking for. For example, is a "day dream" as in a guided visualization, or otherwise structured visualisation a vision? Or is it something much more tangible as in an actual appearing "object" in a bowl of ink etc.? What am I truly looking for? Is a somewhat suprising or random "imaginary visual" that pops in my head a vision? Perhaps this is only something we see appear in the body of light, with practice? Can anyone help me understand a little more and a good technique they found that worked? Thank you, I appreciate the help.

93"

93 Daegal et al,

You said you "still have trouble with confidence in what exactly" you are looking for. This is a common problem with virtually every occultist, although I would actually say that it shows a healthy skepticism rather than it being a 'problem' per se.

I would personally say that all the things you listed - daydream, guided visualization, structured visualization, tangible images appearing, and the body of light - are all "visions" to different degrees, as mentioned by others here. I personally believe that the source of the material of visions/scrying is the unconscious. The unconscious is also the source of reverie, fantasy, daydreaming, normal nighttime dreams, nightmares, intuition, psychedelic visions, and psychosis. The magician is one who consciously facilitates the release of these unconscious contents and integrates them into her life through "love under will" - i.e. through union with them in a way whereby she may learn and grow and more fully actualize her potential as a Willful being.

As for techniques, it is often easier to get results if you have 2 people, a Magus and a Seer. The Magus can banish, invoke, et cetera while the Seer remains seated. The formula I have been using which has been good is (1) Banish, (2) Invoke, (3) Barbarous Words. The Banishing is usually LBRP. The invocation may include a text/poem/paean to the "energy" intended to be invoked (or more formal ritualistic invocations through Pentagram/Hexagram rituals). The Barbarous Words are taken from Liber Samekh ('Spirit' section) in order to allow for the Seer to enter a non-rational state of mind, using the words to make the vision more concrete. The Magus can then help navigate the Seer's world by asking the Seer to describe what is happening/being seen and to ask the Seer questions.

If you want a practice that can help your functioning within this 'astral plane,' I highly recommend checking out and trying Music-guided Visualization, which was written up by a Thelemite who is well-versed in scrying & visions. This practice helps to work the muscles of scrying to help make the actual scrying much more vivid, just like one would do weight training to increase one's performance in one's sport of choice.

Good luck, have fun, and Do what thou wilt.

93 93/93"

ThelemicMage

There is a bit of science behind this, which after explained, will clear the differences up between these types of information/experience.

If one is into Meditation, Magick/scrying/vision questing, then it would be in one's best interests to read "The Psychedelic Experience - The Tibetan Book of the Dead" (English Translation) by Dr. Timothy Leary.

In this great work, are the englished sections of the Tibetan BOTD. Explanations of the Clear Light and the lower levels of Bardo.

Now, be it one of Nuit's sacraments, (Lysergic Acid derivatives, Mescaline, Psilocybe mushrooms, DMT,) or it be through the meditation that comes easier after such experiences, or you could meditate without eating the food of light all your life and maybe learn to grasp the same concepts...

Hypnogogia is the condition of your brain not being awakened enough by such sacraments before trying this stuff on your own. It's as if a put bull born and bread for fighting has been fed nothing but cabbage all his life, then goes into the ring and loses. It causes you to misinterpret sensory awareness, be it physical or psychic. In your case, psychic.

Say, for instance you awakened yourself pretty well and you are keeping it going with everyday meditation. You would see the electromagnetic/infrared/etc. patterns all around you, looking almost like jeweled topography going from 2-d to 3-d just as fast as you can perceive it. Also, you see auras on people that allows you to know what's going on inside their minds/bodies.

If one was not awakened or one had not trained their mind by such awakening to recognize illusion, then the electromagnetic energy would be dancing rows of candy, and and the auras would appear as hideous, mis-shapen faces on those around you. Hypnogogia is all it is, don't call an excorcist or an ambulance for gods' sakes.

Now, after realizing this, we can separate out two kinds of "visions": Visuals, and pure Visions.

Visuals is what was just discussed in previous paragraphs. After one has learned to read through hypnogogia to true energy, one can go further by experiencing true "Visions." This usually happens as if you were out of your body, and came into contact with immense intelligence.

I must lay on my belly to calm the Cayenne pepper and wine.

Jason R

@IAO131 said

"
@Daegal said
"93

This may seem/be somewhat of a newbie question, but oh well lol. I continue to struggle with understanding "how" to know we have had a vision or not. I still have trouble with confidence in what exactly im looking for. For example, is a "day dream" as in a guided visualization, or otherwise structured visualisation a vision? Or is it something much more tangible as in an actual appearing "object" in a bowl of ink etc.? What am I truly looking for? Is a somewhat suprising or random "imaginary visual" that pops in my head a vision? Perhaps this is only something we see appear in the body of light, with practice? Can anyone help me understand a little more and a good technique they found that worked? Thank you, I appreciate the help.

93"

93 Daegal et al,

You said you "still have trouble with confidence in what exactly" you are looking for. This is a common problem with virtually every occultist, although I would actually say that it shows a healthy skepticism rather than it being a 'problem' per se.

I would personally say that all the things you listed - daydream, guided visualization, structured visualization, tangible images appearing, and the body of light - are all "visions" to different degrees, as mentioned by others here. I personally believe that the source of the material of visions/scrying is the unconscious. The unconscious is also the source of reverie, fantasy, daydreaming, normal nighttime dreams, nightmares, intuition, psychedelic visions, and psychosis. The magician is one who consciously facilitates the release of these unconscious contents and integrates them into her life through "love under will" - i.e. through union with them in a way whereby she may learn and grow and more fully actualize her potential as a Willful being.

As for techniques, it is often easier to get results if you have 2 people, a Magus and a Seer. The Magus can banish, invoke, et cetera while the Seer remains seated. The formula I have been using which has been good is (1) Banish, (2) Invoke, (3) Barbarous Words. The Banishing is usually LBRP. The invocation may include a text/poem/paean to the "energy" intended to be invoked (or more formal ritualistic invocations through Pentagram/Hexagram rituals). The Barbarous Words are taken from Liber Samekh ('Spirit' section) in order to allow for the Seer to enter a non-rational state of mind, using the words to make the vision more concrete. The Magus can then help navigate the Seer's world by asking the Seer to describe what is happening/being seen and to ask the Seer questions.

If you want a practice that can help your functioning within this 'astral plane,' I highly recommend checking out and trying Music-guided Visualization, which was written up by a Thelemite who is well-versed in scrying & visions. This practice helps to work the muscles of scrying to help make the actual scrying much more vivid, just like one would do weight training to increase one's performance in one's sport of choice.

Good luck, have fun, and Do what thou wilt.

93 93/93"

Thank you IAO! This really was informative, and very helpful. I especially am intrigued with the musical skrying. I appreciate the expert advice and suggestions for a defined method with using a seer.

93

Jason R

@Dara Allarah said

"
@Daegal said
"Dar, thanks again. I used to dabble in remote viewing too BTW! Many moons ago lol, back in the day I knew even less tgan I do now! I woukd remite view my friends houses of their past, places of course I never knew anything about. Suprisingly I was usually very accurate, even describing favorite toys and their defects! I think its intetesting about what you said about the HGA. Its as if "it" can not know particular things? Maybe I misunderstood.

93"

Are you referring to the down-loaders detail problem? It's not that the HGA cannot know particular things if the information is there, but there can be situations where looking for a particular thing is made difficult by the sheer amount of information surrounding it. Intelligence agencies run into this problem all the time. They collect an expanding amount of data on criminals so that they could tell you what xyz subject had for breakfast but their problem isn't a lack of data but in recognising what, in the mountain of data they collect, is relevant and what is not.

And then there are issues with motivation - is it worth the HGA's effort to go looking for the needle in the haystack just to please a whim of the ego? Especially when a lot of the time it's simply so the ego can take the credit for something it didn't actually do? And there's also the fact that when the ego does take the credit for something it isn't actually responsible for then it's not really paying proper attention to integrating with the HGA, and that's not in the best interests of the HGA or the ego. The HGA doesn't have to comply with the wishes and wants of the linear minds ego. But when the ego can recognise that the point of practise is better integration with the HGA and it stops trying to run the show and treat the HGA like a servant or gofa, and instead adopts a position of respectful service to it, then what it can know and convey to it's linear mind is only limited by the downloaders detail problem and whether the information is actually there or not.

In theory it's possible for just about anyone to find out what JFK had for breakfast on the morning of his assassination. But we can safely conclude that the only reason why anyone would want to know such a thing would be for the purposes of ego self-aggrandisement. We think this is why most RV'ers face a rapid decline in their results after an initial period of high success: it's due to the ego getting ego invested in the process.

Let me give you a real world example of this. My friend was made to wait 6 months before his new master decided to take him on, and by doing so he proved that he was dedicated and had the requisite patience the Tibetan master was looking for. This venerable master is 90 years ago and he recently gave his new student his new name. He told his new student that his new name means "worthless" in Tibetan, and then he asked him how he felt about the name. The student replied serenly that the name was fine because the master was just as worthless as he was. For a moment the master looked enraged and his eyes flashed, then he thought about it and then he laughed loudly. Over the years the master's ego had gotten invested in being a master and that had caused a slight rift between the integration of his linear mind and his HGA until his student's words brought him to realise it. He then thanked his student for teaching him something. "

I see now. I have a totally different view then of the HGA lol, not that im right, but it would seem im seeing the HGA as "God". It seems your describing a "being" a bit more individual in a sense, not so much omnipotent with "info" in an instant etc. thank you for the insight!

ThelemicMage

A thing one can easily and always do to learn to filter information in and out of themselves, (fitting into your goal of visionary scrying,) is to look at one's own words and analyze them.

You mentioned that your HGA, in your eyes, is like "God". A god implies a male creative force, as does a Goddess symbolize a female creative force. The root of the matter and this idea is Nuit and Hadit, the original God and Goddess of creation.

Your HGA is an evolutionary combination of these two "beings" or forces. This is why seeming contradictions and similarities between the sexes are revealed and evolved as knowledge and conversation continues.

Jason R

@ThelemicMage said

"There is a bit of science behind this, which after explained, will clear the differences up between these types of information/experience.