Moses stick to snake magick
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How do you interpret that? What lessons can be learned from this?
What strikes me is pharao's called the best magicians he had. Moses didnt know about such things. When God asked him to throw his stick, he was like "wtf?". But it worked.
I see an illustration of the advantages of not identifying with God, or true will, directly. Maybe the pharao's magicians, after a lot of training, forgot all is true, and in a sense became black brothers. Their magick was thus limited to a precise point. Thinking from the ego point of vue, of what magick they were able to accomplish, they could not take it to the further step wich involved no ego. Moses acted by pure will of God, by true will, and thus conquered.
Now, it makes me wonder about siddhis. The above example compares manipulation of the astral plane up to physical illusion(sticks looking like snakes) versus real physical transmutation(stick to snake physical transformation). Are these two siddhis attributed to a specific sphere on the tree of life?
Intuitively i'd say the physical illusion with consistent results would take to be somewhere between a good philosophus and an adept exemptus in the AA system, according to personnal style. Would it be possible anyway to be 7=4, or maybe even 5=6 in AA without such a siddhi, and probably many others?
As to transform a stick into a real snake, i can only imagine it possible under special circonstances, whatever the grade. I dont think a magus would do such things for fun
. But i think anyways it might correspond to above the abyss level. Would it be possible to achieve such powerful magick without crossing the abyss? Could it be consistent? -
@Horus Amin said
"I see an illustration of the advantages of not identifying with God, or true will, directly."
Why not? I don't get that at all.
"Maybe the pharao's magicians, after a lot of training, forgot all is true, and in a sense became black brothers."
"In a sense"?
"Moses acted by pure will of God, by true will, and thus conquered."
Sure.
Nice thread, BTW.
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@Horus Amin said
"As to transform a stick into a real snake, i can only imagine it possible under special circonstances, whatever the grade. I dont think a magus would do such things for fun"
wikibin.org/articles/reality-shift.html
realityshifters.com/pages/articles/whatarerealityshifts.html
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The title is worded as if you are suggesting to Moses to perform predominately snake Magick.
Love is the Law
Frank -
Regarding the notion that a high knowledge of magick degrades its efficacy:
When I first got into magick, results were immediate and extreme(and this was when I was 16-17, not even a 0=0). I felt like a child playing with daddy's power tools and had a blast*. But, as I experienced more and more(and read more books to boot), my intellect started to grasp the mechanism and seriously hindered the flow. I believe the "lust of result" comes from intellect -- while the will and emotions are just playing with it all the intellect sets ideals and precedence to try and conform the results to, which handicaps them. So yes, by my own experiences, it is very possible to achieve powerful magick below the Abyss, but no it will not be consistent until one has a fully integrated command of the mechanism: the mark of a Magus.
This isn't to say that knowledge/intellect isn't important, just that it must be put in its place as but one of four tools at the magician's disposal(what I mean by "integrated"), something I suppose would-be black brothers could have trouble doing when finally faced with the ultimatum put forth by the Abyss.
*To put it lightly!
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@Horus Amin said
"How do you interpret that? What lessons can be learned from this?"
I learned to not believe everything I read.
I can turn a stick into a snake in 10 seconds flat. I just need a good fluffer.
@Horus Amin said
"Now, it makes me wonder about siddhis. The above example compares manipulation of the astral plane up to physical illusion(sticks looking like snakes) versus real physical transmutation(stick to snake physical transformation). Are these two siddhis attributed to a specific sphere on the tree of life? "
Table I, Column XLV -- they are assigned to Paths of the TOL by Crowley in* 777 *or Eshelman's 776 1/2. Path of Sameck for transmutation, Path of Qoph for illusion...Jim would probably know better if Crowley had specific resource material for these attributions...
@P is for Pomegranate said
"When I first got into magick, results were immediate and extreme(and this was when I was 16-17, not even a 0=0). I felt like a child playing with daddy's power tools and had a blast. But, as I experienced more and more(and read more books to boot), my intellect started to grasp the mechanism and seriously hindered the flow. I believe the "lust of result" comes from intellect -- while the will and emotions are just playing with it all the intellect sets ideals and precedence to try and conform the results to, which handicaps them"
Very well said. Also, I believe as the True Will starts to come into more into alignment with consciousness, the direction and the effects of the magical fireworks change.
In the beginning, at least in my experience, phenomena was pretty cray. As things settled down, and the psychology began to become familiar with magick and mystical practices, there was a growth that occured -- a combination of a more resolute will with increased concentration...a direction...
Not to say phenomena isn't still pretty outrageous, but hey -- maintain the skeptic -- otherwise, one may end up writing gematria proofs about the back of a Fruit Loops box.
It seems the things that one wants most from magick seems to evolve anyway. It seems once we learn that we can economize energy to focus strictly on useful things, the siddhis become more peripheral, and we start to gain a clearer picture of what is most useful for our unique Path. Not to say the "wtf???" phenomena doesn't help you adjust perspective when becoming "too intellectual."
Like Crowley says [I'm paraphrasing], why spend 30 years trying to walk on water when you can simply build a boat? More economical and more intelligent to get down the river that way.
Also, why try to miraculously heal your knee when you can just stretch it and go to physical therapy? Addressing things on their own plane is always a good policy. But, not to say using magick AND physical therapy isn't a good plan, either...
Seriously, though -- throwing sticks and sh*t is hella cool when it turns into a snake. I threw a bible once and it turned into an ancient Harry Potter novel.
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@Frater 639 said
"In the beginning, at least in my experience, phenomena was pretty cray. As things settled down, and the psychology began to become familiar with magick and mystical practices, there was a growth that occured -- a combination of a more resolute will with increased concentration...a direction..."
This makes me think of the emergence of the Ace of Disks from the Swords, "Okay, war's fun n'all, who doesn't love explosions, but what do we really hope to accomplish here?". My early results were all about dissolving superfluous structures and finding limits, seeing what comes in without trying to do anything in particular. But once everything slowed down, once I had been shown what I was going to see and had my fun, it became a matter of work and utility. I was asked that question: what do I really hope to accomplish? My momentum crash was huge when I hit that wall(besides the fact that I unwittingly set myself up for such a crash).
@Frater 639 said
"Like Crowley says [I'm paraphrasing], why spend 30 years trying to walk on water when you can simply build a boat? More economical and more intelligent to get down the river that way. "
I find myself bringing up that quote quite often in discussions of these matters
Mixing the planes was an early difficulty of mine. Only time and failure taught me how to properly allocate my intention.@Frater 639 said
"Seriously, though -- throwing sticks and sh*t is hella cool when it turns into a snake. I threw a bible once and it turned into an ancient Harry Potter novel.
" Sharp. -
@P is for Pomegranate said
" But once everything slowed down, once I had been shown what I was going to see and had my fun, it became a matter of work and utility. I was asked that question: what do I really hope to accomplish? My momentum crash was huge when I hit that wall(besides the fact that I unwittingly set myself up for such a crash)."
You might say before you were trying to just do the ritual -
Now it is not so much about the ritual -
It is about the point you are using them to focus thy self upon!As for Moses: He was initiated into the Egyptian Mysteries:
Where they concerned them selves wit the image, he went Beyond! Beyond! -
The context of Moses staff is quite wide.. It's symbolising identity and 'these are my people'.. the tribes.
On a more mystical bent the staff was made of sapphire with the 42 names of the ineffable one carved upon it, sapphire symbolising wisdom.
I wont spoon feed you but if you're interested in looking into it there is special meaning in what hand the the rod is held in (left or right) and whether it is held or cast as when Moses throws it down.
The rod is part of creation and the serpent In The Beginning. -
How magic-y do you want to get in your explanation?
There are several ways to look at what happened, and how literal the story is taken always seems to depend on the degree which a person believes (perhaps even experiences) magic to have power over substance.
I think the point of the scene in the story is that though the Egyptians were apparently more powerful to the eye (more magicians, more snakes, more weapons, more money, more army ...all that), Moses' one snake ate the other two. In other words, visible power, in terms of numbers, didn't matter because, according to the story, Moses' god was more powerful.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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@Horus Amin said
"I see an illustration of the advantages of not identifying with God, or true will, directly."Why not? I don't get that at all.
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Hi Patrick
I think the manifest form of the holy texts(except Liber al vel Legis of course) is built for the profane or the man of the street. For such a man, it may be better, in most cases, to think about God as something external only. Because the personality is not clean enough yet. And the intellect does not know the nature of the being enough yet. Even when in the path of initiation, it takes time and a lot of work to achieve the first part of the alchemical transmutation, which cleans the earthly part of the being, and prepares it to welcome the more subtle parts, and then the true will.
Thus, even though the typical jew, christian, muslim, might identify unconsciously with God during prayer(which is great), there's a huge step from feeling or thinking consiously "that's it, God is here, i'm becoming it, it's a part of me...and so on". The man must work towards it, as an ideal to get closer to. If not, it might close the door to real achievement.
Thus, Moses is shown as a typical man, who can indeed achieve great things, but only with the help of God, which is at the moment something external.
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@ThelemicMage said
"The title is worded as if you are suggesting to Moses to perform predominately snake Magick.
Love is the Law
Frank"HAHAHAHA !!!!!
"com'on bro, stick to snake magick"
Thanks for all the replies guys, very interesting.
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@Horus Amin said
"Hi Patrick
I think the manifest form of the holy texts(except Liber al vel Legis of course) is built for the profane or the man of the street. For such a man, it may be better, in most cases, to think about God as something external only. Because the personality is not clean enough yet. And the intellect does not know the nature of the being enough yet. Even when in the path of initiation, it takes time and a lot of work to achieve the first part of the alchemical transmutation, which cleans the earthly part of the being, and prepares it to welcome the more subtle parts, and then the true will.
Thus, even though the typical jew, christian, muslim, might identify unconsciously with God during prayer(which is great), there's a huge step from feeling or thinking consiously "that's it, God is here, i'm becoming it, it's a part of me...and so on". The man must work towards it, as an ideal to get closer to. If not, it might close the door to real achievement.
Thus, Moses is shown as a typical man, who can indeed achieve great things, but only with the help of God, which is at the moment something external."
Sounds about right. That's pretty good, actually.
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Thanks. Here's a personnal example of application in real life:
Some time ago i had great trouble with path of tav. Like some bros here, the significant results of it deluded me into believing i was the next big thing in magick, or at least an adept. Whereas the indeed great results, like seeing Adonai, having physical manifestations, and so on, should have helped me a lot in life, the delusion of believing i was almost face to face with god fucked up my life.
At this point, i had an intuition(from Adonai probably). I had to read the kuran and meet muslims. It was very strange to me as i come from a cultural background which is not friendly towards arabs and their culture. Well, i ended up in the local mosque, practicing with typical arabs of the street, who have no idea(and are even hostile towards) about initiation. This was a huge help. I owe a lot to those guys i didnt like in the first place.
They just taught me humility and helped me "land back to earth", in a way no one else could. At first, i tried to infuence them, talking about philosophy and stuff, but i realised they had more to teach me than i had to teach them, at this particular moment.
And i realised for them, their system actually works great. When talking to a dumb one, i asked him "what do you think about sufis?"(knowing he hated them because of his salafi fanatism). The guy made the most beautiful lapsus i heard in my entire life. He replied:" the sufis? they are the best ! they are the only ones who will be saved from hell !"
He actually "thought" i was asking about salafis even though i was very clear and repeted several time the word. It was not him speaking. 
This impressed me a lot.The same guy, once, was talking about how bad are the other religions. I asked him "what do you think? is it better to be atheist or to practice an other religion?". I was expecting him to reply "atheist" and going on explaining me other religions are "shirk"(associationism), but to my surpise he told me straight "i dont know at all, i must read again the kuran to answer this... only god knows... i cannot answer if its not god's words". That impressed me a lot again.