I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME! -
Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@landis said
"What happened to your promise not to use that tone with me ever again?"
I was quite "persuasive" and put some "pressure" back on to you, but I wasn't harsh was I? At least know this: I didn't intend to be harsh, just pressure-like and persuasive.
@landis said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME!"It always has everything to do with ourselves, as I see it... I think all this is all about YOU, but we can keep talking about ME if you want.... I just felt I were on to something, that's all.
@landis said
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
I don't feel hopelessness even though I can ask the question: "Am I lost?" But I know it's the dying ego of a man asking, wanting to know where I am in the process and how far I got left... I therefor don't want help getting out of what you think is a depression. I want the Lord to have me down here until he sees me fit to move on... Actually he would piss me off if he let me out of it any sooner!
@landis said
"Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall."
I wouldn't use the word "depressed", since that would give you the wrong idea where I am at. But okey, my state of mind might share some of the symptoms of a serious depression. I don't know... But if we are talking about the 10 "cognitive distortions" from the link that you gave me. I DID read them for YOUR sake, and it was of course a waste of time, since I couldn't relate to any of them - None - Nada - Zip! They all were something that might have had been an issue many years ago, but if so, has been dealt with a long long time ago...
This is why I won't read the books you recommended... Because I don't feel depressed... I keep telling you that there is joy too, but it's like talking to this wall. You simply won't listen.
@landis said
"You didn't answer my question about precision and specificity."
Have I answered your questions now? You need other data?
@landis said
"Why won't you read those books? The worse that could happen is you'll be able to use them to prove me wrong."
I won't read those books since I don't have the problems you are talking about, Once again: I read the link that you gave me for YOUR sake; the 10 cognitive distortions". I couldn't relate at all. Been there done that.
Now Agent Starling before we go any futher; I would like to have some of my questions answered since this "vulnerability issue" (?) makes you keep running away from them:
Let me repeat:
*Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask YOU a personal question: Can YOU make yourself:
**Vulnerable... **
Or are YOU running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?*
@landis said
"Why do you want to know if I'm on meds? I didn't ask you if you were. Are you a mind reader?"
Were I a mind reader? I were right, weren't I? Because meds are a serious thing: They block emotions and shut down the hearts of men... I also felt it is hard to reach you... To touch your heart... And since you put yourself in a spot where you think you can diagnose and help another man... It becomes a trusty-issue... Therefor I ask this question: Are YOU on any medication?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace.
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hawk child, i think i know what you mean by pain inside screaming... and i think it goes from karma, that you havent fulfilled something, missed opurtunity in past lives. In such case its not abyss.
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Ever consider this: Somebody going through deep deppression might classify their experience as "The abyss" In Order to give it some sort of meaning.
Coming through such an experience is certainly no mean feat, and many never do come out of it, or at best get to a point where they can function with the aid of medication. Some come out the other side and back into their own sunlight. Many of who come through do so with the aid of one or another Phycho/spiritual system, including Thelema.
enough has been said of the path of Tau and its apparent similarity with the abyss. Not having crossed the abyss I can't comment on that either.
One thing I can comment on is the predictable cycle one again repeating itself on thus forum: Some soul comes here claiming to have crossed the abyss and is soon hit with a barrage or argument as to why s/he is mistaken; gets defensive and angry, eventually goes off in a huff having gotten no help at all but only derision and condescension.
Is this helpful? Or is there another way?
Wouldn't it be more helpful for people making these claims to be heard out without criticism, after all it doesn't matter a fig to know the grade of another or where they are on their specific journey:
(Bringing to mind the latest '8=3' to surface).
If somebody is affiliated with the AA then only that individuals superior and/or students need know their grade, its simply not relevant to anyone else and more likely to cause grade-jealousy than actually do any good. If they are not affiliated to the Order then they actually have no grade whatever (albeit insofar as they may be doing the work unaided) and need make no claims except out of egotism.If Hawk headed child is going through the abyss, then he'll either sink or swim according to his karma, its not relevant to anybody else, and so to affirm it or deny it is also not relevant. If he is deeply depressed then he will either sink or swim according to his karma, and once in the clear he will recognize his error and perhaps continue on the path better armed for the real abyss by his ordeal.
Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way.
93 93/93
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@Archaeus said
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Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way.93 93/93"
But by mislabeling it, he is not helping himself, he is hindering. Correctly understood, the conditions he is suffering can be helped, but incorrectly understood, his conditions cannot be helped. The gift of Discernment is very valuable here.
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Vadox, Archaeus
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Vadox said
"hawk child, i think i know what you mean by pain inside screaming... and i think it goes from karma, that you havent fulfilled something, missed opurtunity in past lives. In such case its not abyss."
"The gross must pass through fire", so of course some of my experience back 2-4 years ago is a Karma thing. I know/felt it, that I have been "so to say" paying for my Evil deeds...
But "The Vision and the Voice" is my testimony. It's like it's written to myself.
Why did my Angel finally leave me? I didn't do what the Black Brother does, abandon it... It was saddening for me to have this blissful experience with her and afterwards seeing our communication slowly fading away - actually it was panicking when i realized what was happening - and beyond all horror to finally lose connection with her...
The more I tried to stay in contact, the more she seemed to pull away from me...
So either I lost her because of 7=4; me taking the Oath of the Abyss (I did my essay and I did take the oath: I swore in blood on TBOTL about 2,5 years ago to accomplish the great work.)
OR... I accidentally broke connection somewhere along the way losing myself forever... If we are to think of this final alternative; I might as well kill myself... But I won't... Since I am the one KNOWING what actually happened; I am the one KNOWING who I am; and I am the one KNOWING my own destiny.
I try to hang in there... Do the work and if I succeed perhaps I will some day "unite" with my Beloved and achieve true UNION. I can't even imagine how that would be like... I can't even desire it... Since I feel imperfect, impure, dirty and therefor unworthy of such an event...
@Archaeus said
"Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way."
Great post and well said!
Love is the law, love under will
Peace
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"Why did my Angel finally leave me?"
Is this a physical flesh and blood woman you are referring to, whom you have associated with your HGA? You did mention a relationship with a physical flesh and blood woman and a child earlier, her leaving you seeming to herald the beginning of this crisis for you. Am I correct?
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@Archaeus said
"Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way."Great post and well said!
Love is the law, love under will
Peace"
"Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler."
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@Takamba said
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@Archaeus said
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Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way.93 93/93"
But by mislabeling it, he is not helping himself, he is hindering. Correctly understood, the conditions he is suffering can be helped, but incorrectly understood, his conditions cannot be helped. The gift of Discernment is very valuable here."
Logically speaking you are correct, but then correct is not always useful: What I mean is that it's best to let the process play itself out rather than interfere, in the present state its not relevant what the sufferer calls his ordeal, only that he puts all his energy into engaging with the experience, not wasting energy on wondering what to call it or in defending himself from the opinions of others.
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@Takamba said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
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@Archaeus said
"Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way."Great post and well said!
Love is the law, love under will
Peace"
"Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler."
"Adolescent
Compassion is the vice of Kings
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@Takamba said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"Why did my Angel finally leave me?"Is this a physical flesh and blood woman you are referring to, whom you have associated with your HGA? You did mention a relationship with a physical flesh and blood woman and a child earlier, her leaving you seeming to herald the beginning of this crisis for you. Am I correct?"
I was wondering that myself but hadn't gotten around to addressing it yet, it might be worth asking directly:
@Hawk Headed child: Are you talking about a flesh and blood woman or your HGA?
Are you even making a distinction between the two?
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OR... I accidentally broke connection somewhere along the way losing myself forever... If we are to think of this final alternative; I might as well kill myself... But I won't... Since I am the one KNOWING what actually happened; I am the one KNOWING who I am; and I am the one KNOWING my own destiny."
Brother; this is a huge warning sign!
I suggest you read it to yourself very carefully
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Takamba, Archaeus
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Takamba said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"Why did my Angel finally leave me?"Is this a physical flesh and blood woman you are referring to, whom you have associated with your HGA? You did mention a relationship with a physical flesh and blood woman and a child earlier, her leaving you seeming to herald the beginning of this crisis for you. Am I correct?"
You guys will probably jump me and scorn me for saying this... but yes... mine Angel actually is another human being. Suddenly one day after doing my true will for a few months this beautiful woman, came in my way and I felt "intuitively" her being mine Angel - I just knew. Let's not go into details to why this was so. I got KNOWLEDGE from writing and calling her. Working with her...
Getting inspired in a way never inspired before...
I figure the reason to why she is a human being, is because I am an Ox; I am all a man of earth as much as one can be (You should see my Horoscope.). I can't astral project, get visions etc (It happens but seldom). When I was little i tried to pretend that my dolls and bears had life... But I couldn't they were dead objects... I am stuck in "reality" so to say and a spiritual vision is not something that come to people like me, just like that... I had some experience, not much though...
I only deal with "real life stuff" so to say...
Now this Angel came into my life. And I actually had this intuitive feeling that I was going to push - had to push - her away from me. I don't know how to put this in words, but the human part of me wanted a normal life, a normal relationship (I sure didn't dream of finally choosing to live the life of a Beggar! I cried when I "intuitively" knew what I had to do...). But even so, even if I knew I scared her and pushed her away from me, by acting and talking as I did...
I immediately "intuitively" ignored trying to be normal and started working against her treating her as she was mine Angel. And if it wasn't for the experience and TRUE KNOWLEDGE I got from this episode in my life - I would have called myself delluded and wouldn't have called her mine Angel...
It's of course her "inner being" i treat as min Angel, not the human part. I'm therefor not idealizing - She was a bit cruel I would say: I actually felt her sadistically taking pleasure in my suffering, being separated from her! I therefor can make a distinction between "the human part" and her "spiritual nature". She got "flaws" I'm sure after being in an abusive relationship for 8 years, and hasn't got any clue at all to being any angel of mine - today probably thinking I am one crazy, maniac - acting and talking the way I did
It's her "inner being" that is mine Angel... If you understand what I mean?
@Archaeus said
"@Hawk Headed child: Are you talking about a flesh and blood woman or your HGA? Are you even making a distinction between the two?"
So, yes I am making a distinction between the two...
I'm not obsessive either (One could say that I was, when this mad love was rushing through my body). I have actually said this to myself many times: "If I am deluded please let go of her..." But today it's more than "her" at stake... I have got - true knowledge - and to many events carrying pieces of information, so many signs leading up to this critical experience and point in time when she finally left me... That there is no turning back, there is only one future ahead of me and that is to:
"SPEAK"
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Archaeus said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"OR... I accidentally broke connection somewhere along the way losing myself forever... If we are to think of this final alternative; I might as well kill myself... But I won't... Since I am the one KNOWING what actually happened; I am the one KNOWING who I am; and I am the one KNOWING my own destiny."
Brother; this is a huge warning sign!
I suggest you read it to yourself very carefully"
Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Perhaps you like me to be "active" in this therapeutic session of ours. But I have re-read and failed to understand what you mean. Please, i'm curious: Tell me what it is that YOU see here.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Archaeus said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"OR... I accidentally broke connection somewhere along the way losing myself forever... If we are to think of this final alternative; I might as well kill myself... But I won't... Since I am the one KNOWING what actually happened; I am the one KNOWING who I am; and I am the one KNOWING my own destiny."
Brother; this is a huge warning sign!
I suggest you read it to yourself very carefully"
Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Perhaps you like me to be "active" in this therapeutic session of ours. But I have re-read and failed to understand what you mean. Please, i'm curious: Tell me what it is that YOU see here.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
Simple mistake; and I won't pour scorn on it as just one of many mistakes that a person can make.
The "Inner angel" of another person cannot be your HGA, that idea completely misses the point and will only get you in trouble.
Classic Kundry Ordeal, Ordeal of discrimination.
If on the other hand we think outside the Thelemic paradigm, I would say differently.
Call it the Ordeal of the abyss if you like, but follow out the Ordeal of separation from your beloved. If you have been cast out into the abyss by your angel then so be it, go through with it whole-heartedly, give your all and deny not one drop from the cup.
I also highly recommend you read Liber Cheth.
93 93/93
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Hawk Headed Child, I'd like to take a wild guess. Is your name Jon?
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"You guys will probably jump me and scorn me for saying this... but yes... mine Angel actually is another human being."
Not scorn, no; but I need to hasten to say that this isn't the HGA.
Now, it's always possible that a person anchored some aspect of the experience of the HGA for you for a while. That's common enough. We see the Angel in all sorts of phenomena (including, but not limited to, other people). Someone that awakens a deep experience of intimacy within us is certainly capable of igniting a new relationship to intimacy itself (and this is a key characteristic of the K&C). In decades past, I've had this jump-started in me at critical points by remarkable women in my life; I've experienced it through astral entities that claimed to be my Angel (and offered authenticating clues; and sometimes, also, were inauthentic); I dove into gematria furiously for years, only later realizing that I was building an inner language to use for communicating with the Angel until the channels were sufficiently matured to work on their own; and so and so forth and the other stuff.
People in our lives serving in this capacity are much like crystal balls or other skrying devices: They are able to serve as a reflection to us of something internal that we can't (at the moment) otherwise see outside of ourselves. And this can be quite common in the years of the approach to the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
And it's not the Angel. It's an early taste, and an encouragement, and a way of communicating until we progress further and have the capacity to experience the Angel and our relationship to it without an intermediary.
From this one fact you have shared, we have much more clarity on your state. It isn't the Geburah/6=5 state I described, or anything to do with The Abyss. It's a common projection in the sphere of Malkuth. Your current darkness (or darkness and light rhythm, as I think you've depicted it) are the ordeal of the Path of Tav, or one of the earlier, preliminary thresholds.
The beautiful news is that there are experiences, growth, and attainment ahead of you far beyond anything you've yet encountered. You're near the beginning of your journey, not the end; and that's a remarkable thing. You have so much more to look forward to.
But, meantime, you have to complete your current "tasks" (those set for you by your life, karma, the Angel, whatever). I don't have a clear opinion on whether you have a psychiatric condition that needs treatment, or are passing through an existential crisis. (It is at least the latter; I don't have a clear sense of whether it also includes the former). By the way, the "dark night of the soul" (at its several levels) occurs when someone who has authentically connected to the Divine suddenly loses the means of doing that. In your case, it appears to be because you were anchoring that inner link to a particular person - your "way of worship" at that time. It can also happen just in the course of passing through the grades, when we outgrow the illusions of one particular phase so that our old means and methods no longer work. The solution is invariably to find the new means that is characeteristic of our new state.
"Getting inspired in a way never inspired before...[.quote]
And that's just the beginning!"I only deal with "real life stuff" so to say..."
"Then that's probably your current ordeal. She came to serve you in your Earth stage. If you want to continue the Work, you need to grow past that. Some part of you already has (most likely). I would suggest that her departure isn't a loss (in the sense that it applies to this conversation), but a gift - a clearing the way, creating a vacuum, for the next step in your growth. As long as she was around, you likely never would have looked past the material.
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@Archaeus said
"Simple mistake; and I won't pour scorn on it as just one of many mistakes that a person can make.
The "Inner angel" of another person cannot be your HGA, that idea completely misses the point and will only get you in trouble.
Classic Kundry Ordeal, Ordeal of discrimination.
93 93/93"
93
It's important for me to tell the truth and be real about what I have experienced... And Of course reason (your words on my screen) has no effect upon my actions anymore. I have sacrificed everything. No one is getting hurt by me living my special life. There is only some suffering, and even if I try to look another way for something else to do, there will still be suffering.
Now suffering is a sacrament and therefor: Where I am at I have to treat you as a dung of Choronzon. I'm sure you understand.
As Jesus said to Peter: "Stay away from me Satan!"
Of course mine can be a human being. Have u set the rules in this house of God? And what is the difference between a humans "inner nature" and "your higher self" (This could really start to be a play with words!)? In the end - but two different experiences coming to us, depending on the very nature of the man experiencing the phenomena of his own universe.
It is mine UNIVERSE you hear me! MINE!
Some see "Aliens" others see "Angels"... If you know what I mean... I would advice against describing any objective reality to any of them.
Stay put! Do the work and shut up!
93 93/93
Peaceactive
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@Takamba said
"Hawk Headed Child, I'd like to take a wild guess. Is your name Jon?"
Who are you? Do I know you? My name is: John
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@Archaeus said
"Simple mistake; and I won't pour scorn on it as just one of many mistakes that a person can make.The "Inner angel" of another person cannot be your HGA, that idea completely misses the point and will only get you in trouble.
Classic Kundry Ordeal, Ordeal of discrimination.
93 93/93"
93
It's important for me to tell the truth and be real about what I have experienced... And Of course reason (your words on my screen) has no effect upon my actions anymore. I have sacrificed everything. No one is getting hurt by me living my special life. There is only some suffering, and even if I try to look another way for something else to do, there will still be suffering.
Now suffering is a sacrament and therefor: Where I am at I have to treat you as a dung of Choronzon. I'm sure you understand.
As Jesus said to Peter: "Stay away from me Satan!"
Of course mine can be a human being. Have u set the rules in this house of God? And what is the difference between a humans "inner nature" and "your higher self" (This could really start to be a play with words!)? In the end - but two different experiences coming to us, depending on the very nature of the man experiencing the phenomena of his own universe.
It is mine UNIVERSE you hear me! MINE!
Some see "Aliens" others see "Angels"... If you know what I mean... I would advice against describing any objective reality to any of them.
Stay put! Do the work and shut up!
93 93/93
Peaceactive"
That's actually exactly the response I expected, but then you asked my opinion, if you follow my alternative reasoning then you can carry on as one in the abyss should.
A black brother is simply one who cannot let go.
Let go.