I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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True I'm a harsh critic (Saturn in conjunct with natal Virgo) but believe me I'm gentle with you compared to how I treat myself
Anyway, as Universe said, on your way and rejoice, I accept that 'Thou hast no right but to do thy Will'.
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
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Looking back, I've probably written more about 6=5 than any other part of the journey. There is so much to say. But lt me try this: The entry is the Path of Lamed, and the experience of that is a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma - of coming to recognize (with the same simplicity that one breathes) the inseverable connection between one's actions and their consequences. The time in the grade of blistering hot, energy high, impact of events high. Though it isn't the whole of the experience of the grade, person after person has reported a path of Severity, harsh realities, abrupt disruptions in life, a kind of purgation and a kind of accident of losing things through one's clear actions. There were, for me, visions of Babalon, soul-stripping severity, and the like."
"This honestly sounds erielly familiar to me........
And honestly, how would all Thelemites agree on what exactly the abyss is???? How are we able to determine the doctrine of something of which that there may be no exact formula to exact from the experience of others than that of Crowley?? If the example left by him, minus all the symbolism in the holy writings then how is it we can all determine the actuality of this experience.....
Also could you please describe the qualifications, benchmarks and or anything as to what development is at 6=5??
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I don't want to spew my own experience all over these forums, so I would like to adress this special phenomena of the abyss here instead - quoting from this other thread (magick forums): "Using black magick to cross the abyss"
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Horus said
"A counter intuitive idea... using black magick to cross the abyss.As far as the intent is crossing the abyss, couldnt it work theorically?
If i worship money and muscles and cars and women, place them as supernals on the tree of life, keep on assuming harpocrates form every morning, and get not distracted by 333, couldnt it work?"
Now, your instinct about counterintuitive approaches is correct. Totally sound. It's a paradox, though, that if you're going to break all the rules, you need to do it the right way. ;"
That is really amazing. Because in my own case for instance. I didn't have a clue to this concept of "invoking the opposite". I had no preconceived idea of the abyss at all... I am also not aware of ever having read anything about how it is supposed to be done... (It perhaps is possible, but I have no re-collection of it.). Then after over two years in the dark (!) out sprung this "greeting of shadows with gratitude". That something like this - after all these years of suffering - finaly came to me - is so beyond every word of expression...
I would call it a miracle... if didn't knew better... And also if I would have had the emotions to back up the word. Now days, I find it hard to get emotionally excited by anthing, even so called "miracles" fail to stirr up any special feelings at all... It's funny to feel like this - almost like being indiffrent - but still not being at all indiffrent about anything in life!
I'm not that easily excited any longer, that's it... Perhaps it is called having "matured"? Finaly!
I also thought that this "letting go" princple was an "passive" decision. That I were supposed to "float around" in this darkness; to make myself as passive as possible. I had the mindset of making myself like "a corpse" so to say. And by doing so, that things would work out - that all those suicidal feelings, tears, pain etc. would finaly worn themselves out and go away...
They didn't... and it later came to my knowledge that I had actually been clinging to them - yes that is true! I were doing just the opposite of "letting go", thinking I were letting go! How crazy isn't that? If I didn't know that all has been necessary, I would have called myself a fool... Okey, okey I were a fool...
But finaly, out of the sacrament of suffering; out of necessity (I have been at the tree where to hang myself three times! Been trying for so long just to "hang in there".) "suddenly" forth sprung salvation, in form of this prayer. For so long blinded by ignorance, had I failed to understand that "letting go" actually is an "active" decision.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I must confess that today has been a very very tough day. The “shadows” I thought I had battled somewhat to submissiveness, has been striking back with full force, and so had me “partly” falling back in tears, doubt, despair, suicidal feelings etc.
From what I have written so far, I understand that I have jumped to “rushed conclusions” and “wishful-thinking”, mistaking the prayer of being an antidote towards negative feelings – unconsciously hoping myself never to have to experience what I have been experiencing for so long, ever again (thus making a difference between “this and that” – that’s not being grateful for EVERYTHING and that is NOT the way to do it!). One could say that our relation wasn’t as good as I thought… In one sense; it’s a good thing they came back so we could work on our relation… I mean since I have to treat every phenomena as “holy”; and as from “God”.
Oh dear… it sounded so easy…
What the prayer does, is giving me the power of not having my spirit pulled down into the darkness of the abyss… One effect of the prayer is that it hinders the shadows from multiplying like bacteria, creating this chain-reaction of “one thing leads to another”. Such an "unchecked" thought-process, could have one negative thought ending up taking enormous proportions – and thus at the same time – having myself thrown completely out of balance … Therefore the attacks probably would have been much worse, if I wouldn’t have had the common sense of greeting all shadows with gratitude…
It was not easy staying grateful… I have felt the temptation of wanting to cling to all that pain and sorrow… But doing so would lead nowhere but backwards… The logical choice has therefore not been anything else but to stand my “grateful-ground” and to welcome whatever “Shadow” the Lord sends in my direction…
The universe knows my sore spots and weaknesses... Today’s events has been an excellent proof of this being the very case. Now, what could be better, than to have all this darkness thrown at me like this? Knowing this in my heart, actually turned some of that aching agony into gratefulness… Thank you Lord...
At one moment when I had this most blackest darkness of despair coming over me, bringing me into tears and the most agonizing doubt – this acute attack was actually “fended off” – what could have been a “chain-reaction”, with hell of a lot more of negativity, was “cut off” – by me starting to laugh at the thought of this being such an excellent testing of my strength!
That was an crazy experience…
So I guess that’s what it’s all about… keeping my spirit “up” not bothering about what shadow that enters into my consciousness – always keeping that spirit up by staying grateful. Always keeping that heart beating bravely and that passionate fire burning – at all times! That’s what’s it’s all about, or to put it as I once wrote (before falling into the trap of getting emotional all over these forums):
"It's like really cold weather; me greeting every shadow with gratitude , doesn't take away the cold, but it takes away "the edge" and the psyche downward spiral down the abyss. It keeps my spirit up and it keeps me in control of my emotions.”"
I would say that “Pain”, in whatever form, is a necessary part of life and one could either lose oneself in a psyche downward spiral, whining about it, or staying strong keeping one’s spirit up. As I have come to understand it – life is not about “feeling” good – it’s about mastering all emotions and keeping one’s spirit up at all times. Today’s events showed me that, no matter what comes around, it’s all about keeping that spirit up!
Existence will always be about this constant flux between “good” and “bad” emotions depending on the circumstances (without me noticing and once again: unconsciously I fell prey of making a difference between “this and that” emotion…) I’m not sure it’s even possible, but I have made it my quest to raise myself above all these circumstances (practicing this prayer of none attachment and not making any difference between “this or that”)… How else can a man be accepted into the city of the pyramids?
Time will tell… Even if I wanted to, I really have no choice but pray…
Perhaps, this will be my last post… and the end of all these emotional “ups and downs”. I feel refreshed and sobered from today’s happenings, and feel like drawing myself back into the silence of the shadows… I have been far too “talkative” about everything and nothing. Now I need to shut my mouth, stay quiet and not to waste any more strength.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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In the authentic crossing of the Abyss, one doesn't battle these things into submission. Rather, one changes one's relationship to them. If anything is battled, it is one's reactivity; but, even then, it is more a matter of the reactivity not keying in because one's relation ship to the phenomena (and to one's one reactivity) is different.
One doesn't move further from experience, but more deeply into it.
One doesn't even get rid of negative feelings. They're just feelings, like the weather. Again, it's a matter of changing one's relationship to them. I think I would say that one's feelings. Thoughts, and circumstances are no longer the context within which one exists but, rather, that one is the context within which they exist.
Or, at least, this is what arises in response to your words.
You have my sympathy for what you are going through, and my respect for waging the war. This does, indeed, sound like the ordeals of Geburah, or those of the Geburah phase of Yesod (in case that observation is useful to you).
Peace unto you.
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Jim,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"In the authentic crossing of the Abyss, one doesn't battle these things into submission. Rather, one changes one's relationship to them. "
It’s a good thing I didn’t comment upon the word “battled”, as I for a while thought of doing… I intuitively knew it was the wrong choice of word to use in describing what would have been a true process of crossing the abyss… But… on the other hand… my choice of word “somewhat” describes what I have been doing “unconsciously” to some degree – without me knowing about it (Do you follow my way of reasoning?).
I have against me knowing about it, sometimes unconsciously reacted “negatively” towards what people would call “negative feelings”. My conscious intellectual, intuitive, understanding tells me that I shall greet every experience with “gratitude”. But there is this split in myself – since there is also this part of me feeling allergic to all this darkness and suffering.
@Jim Eshelman said
"One doesn't even get rid of negative feelings. They're just feelings, like the weather. Again, it's a matter of changing one's relationship to them. I think I would say that one's feelings. Thoughts, and circumstances are no longer the context within which one exists but, rather, that one is the context within which they exist."
I know this… That it’s all about changing my “relation” to every phenomena, not making any difference between sunshine or rain… I know this… and what you write corresponds perfectly with how I “feel” it is supposed to be done, but still haven’t managed myself to “fully” embrace. Have you never felt the difficulty of getting a hold of every part of that mosaic that you used to call “ego”?
Some parts of me are “elusive” like this part of me that doesn’t want to do the great work at all (I think that my awareness of all processes that is going on inside of me – Isn’t yet that good. This process of “crossing” has much to do with “observation skills” right?) That feeling of wanting to live a normal life and not the life of a beggar. This part that wishes to escape from all of this, back to “utopia”. To quote from my own diary:
"“After 1,5 years I still feel like a guest on the street. If I am correct the universe will not let me move on until I fully identify with being a Beggar, with fully being a child of the street – like the other gypsies.”"
It’s hard for me to accept this destiny, can you understand this? I don’t want to be a Beggar… I don’t want to “feel” what I have been feeling for so long… but I know that I have to adapt or die – there is no other way. I feel forced by the gods to do their biddings and a part of me simply refuses to be submissive, and perhaps that’s why I have to suffer so much?
Do you understand my problem? I “intuitively” know exactly what to do, but it’s hard to have “the whole of my nature” to do what I instinctively know is right – but what feels wrong for that stubborn little child deep down inside of me. He keeps crying over his lost life and all the sacrifices he has had to make. That’s why I keep talking about the “gross must pass through fire”... I therefore sometimes keep “reacting” the wrong way. Do you understand me when I say that it's hard get a hold over every reaction? But of course, eventually I will get there.
I didn’t “choose” to do the Great Work… First I did but then I tried to abandon it... I had this “normal life” and everything. I was content with how things were. But then I was pulled into all this against my own will. Now I am somewhat upset deep down inside, and I feel that this part of me, is still looking for a way back to a regular life... That “false” part of my inner self, has to be overcome and it will take time… I know I am doing it right, but sometimes I fail to “conquer” (meaning staying really “grateful”
) the really dark emotions, then trying to evade them. But I think I will eventually get there… I must keep my spirit up and work my way through this.Thanks, your reply was most helpful, and I actually feel back on track - as if I make a diffrence between the feelings of being "off track" or "back in track!"
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
My initiation has taken a new turn - or to use a more correct expression - it has intensified. I can't pray anymore... Yes, you heard me! My "nature" simply refuses to occupy itself with what I have been doing for more than three weeks.
It seems that my former undertaking was a critical step in this initiation and thus finaly made it possible to accept this new formula of "constant awareness" of that which is going on. This technique is even more effective since it seem to be deepening the experience of "letting go" or "none-attachement".
This new way of handling existance came together with this "Choronzon-like experience", that has been going on for a few days. When I came to feel that "silent observation" was the only thing my nature wanted to stay involved with... Something inside of me simply refuses going back to those prayers. When I try, nothing happens... my tounge and lips simply won't move - it's not even possible doing it within my own mind! Instead, I now greet every experience simply by staying "aware" all the time... There are therefore no more "interruptions", by formulating the words: "Thank you so much". Now there is only constant awareness of that which is going on...
Does this make any sense at all? Not that it matters, this seem like a final "natural" step and I couldn't keep myself from doing it even if you told me to.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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It makes perfect sense; it means to me that you are no longer a closet Christian.
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@Archaeus said
"It makes perfect sense; it means to me that you are no longer a closet Christian."
Is this because he is not "praying" ?
To address some of the thoughts of the original poster:
You seem to be focused on the "begging" aspect and not the "gratitude"
After all, we are reliant on one another to maintain this existenceRecall, that notion of silent observation:
Thou art the King!
Whom merely plays the part of the Beggar
To say you are a "beggar" is a ridiculous notion,
As it is to presume that you are the body,
Not that which gives it life -
I have also often viewed the Abyss as having the pure potential of infinity without the direction of Will
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@Uni_Verse said
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@Archaeus said
"It makes perfect sense; it means to me that you are no longer a closet Christian."Is this because he is not "praying" ?
To address some of the thoughts of the original poster:
You seem to be focused on the "begging" aspect and not the "gratitude"
After all, we are reliant on one another to maintain this existenceRecall, that notion of silent observation:
Thou art the King!
Whom merely plays the part of the Beggar
To say you are a "beggar" is a ridiculous notion,
As it is to presume that you are the body,
Not that which gives it life"Maybe I was somewhat hasty but I only read in passing; so I should clarify.
I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude. I noticed the recurrence of prayer to God in the OP's posts and the whole overall flavor of Christianity. So maybe the cessation of prayer is a first step towards slaying that demon.Just my opinion though, no doubt mixed with my own projections.
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@Archaeus said
"Maybe I was somewhat hasty but I only read in passing; so I should clarify.
I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude. I noticed the recurrence of prayer to God in the OP's posts and the whole overall flavor of Christianity. So maybe the cessation of prayer is a first step towards slaying that demon.Just my opinion though, no doubt mixed with my own projections."
Are you familiar with the Elemental Prayers ?
Such as that of the Gnomes
Where in, the Magician says the prayer on behalf of the Gnomes,
As opposed to praying to the Gnomes
The prayer becoming an adoration in practice to Adonai -
@Uni_Verse said
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@Archaeus said
"Maybe I was somewhat hasty but I only read in passing; so I should clarify.
I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude. I noticed the recurrence of prayer to God in the OP's posts and the whole overall flavor of Christianity. So maybe the cessation of prayer is a first step towards slaying that demon.Just my opinion though, no doubt mixed with my own projections."
Are you familiar with the Elemental Prayers ?
Such as that of the Gnomes
Where in, the Magician says the prayer on behalf of the Gnomes,
As opposed to praying to the Gnomes
The prayer becoming an adoration in practice to Adonai"Yes I'm familiar with them, but that wasn't what the OP was doing. I already explained that it seemed as though he was praying to some supreme being to 'save him' or to be grateful to. It doesn't matter though, like I said; maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, it wouldn't be the first time
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Hawkheaded
Sometimes prayer simply stop, as if the mind turns itself inwards and search for silence. Action in general becomes meaningless, almost a disturbance.
Sometimes the key is to fight, but other is just a matter of relax the inner tension and let it flow through you. This intellectual and emotional fever that wants to label everything, control and explain usually is the very source of inner tension.
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@Archaeus said
"I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude."
I wanted, in passing, to remark on this.
Expanded gratitude is distinctly Christian? Sir, I would disagree most fiercely with this. One could argue, instead, that gratitude as a practice is one of the most effective fundamental practices one can undertake.
I agree with Cicero that, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others,” and with Elie Wiesel who wrote, “When a person doesn’t have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity.”
It is (among other things) my fundamental attitude toward Nuit.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Archaeus said
"I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude."I wanted, in passing, to remark on this.
Expanded gratitude is distinctly Christian? Sir, I would disagree most fiercely with this. One could argue, instead, that gratitude as a practice is one of the most effective fundamental practices one can undertake.
I agree with Cicero that, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others,” and with Elie Wiesel who wrote, “When a person doesn’t have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity.”
It is (among other things) my fundamental attitude toward Nuit."
Yeah I knew I was going to regret this post. Something about what I was reading in the OP's posts didn't sound quite right but I guess I can't put my finger on it at the moment. I withdraw my previous statement.
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I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something.
I started to draw that distinction in my own post, then went back and deleted it. It seemed to me to be too... simple, without being grounded in more details, and I thought the generalization was too general to serve well. But it did cross my mind.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something.
I started to draw that distinction in my own post, then went back and deleted it. It seemed to me to be too... simple, without being grounded in more details, and I thought the generalization was too general to serve well. But it did cross my mind."
That sounds about right: I guess I take issue with the idea of Gratitude "to" something/somebody; which would probably be because I'm essentially an atheist. (Or maybe naturalistic pantheist might be a better way to put ut, which makes being grateful to somebody rather untenable) Still; that's no reason to berate somebody for not seeing things from my point of view. I'm getting that a lot recently, must be a phase I'm going through.
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What about gratitude to individuals?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"What about gratitude to individuals?"
That's not the same as gratitude to imaginary friends though is it? I'm grateful to my mother and I'm at least half certain that she exists?