I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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In the authentic crossing of the Abyss, one doesn't battle these things into submission. Rather, one changes one's relationship to them. If anything is battled, it is one's reactivity; but, even then, it is more a matter of the reactivity not keying in because one's relation ship to the phenomena (and to one's one reactivity) is different.
One doesn't move further from experience, but more deeply into it.
One doesn't even get rid of negative feelings. They're just feelings, like the weather. Again, it's a matter of changing one's relationship to them. I think I would say that one's feelings. Thoughts, and circumstances are no longer the context within which one exists but, rather, that one is the context within which they exist.
Or, at least, this is what arises in response to your words.
You have my sympathy for what you are going through, and my respect for waging the war. This does, indeed, sound like the ordeals of Geburah, or those of the Geburah phase of Yesod (in case that observation is useful to you).
Peace unto you.
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Jim,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"In the authentic crossing of the Abyss, one doesn't battle these things into submission. Rather, one changes one's relationship to them. "
It’s a good thing I didn’t comment upon the word “battled”, as I for a while thought of doing… I intuitively knew it was the wrong choice of word to use in describing what would have been a true process of crossing the abyss… But… on the other hand… my choice of word “somewhat” describes what I have been doing “unconsciously” to some degree – without me knowing about it (Do you follow my way of reasoning?).
I have against me knowing about it, sometimes unconsciously reacted “negatively” towards what people would call “negative feelings”. My conscious intellectual, intuitive, understanding tells me that I shall greet every experience with “gratitude”. But there is this split in myself – since there is also this part of me feeling allergic to all this darkness and suffering.
@Jim Eshelman said
"One doesn't even get rid of negative feelings. They're just feelings, like the weather. Again, it's a matter of changing one's relationship to them. I think I would say that one's feelings. Thoughts, and circumstances are no longer the context within which one exists but, rather, that one is the context within which they exist."
I know this… That it’s all about changing my “relation” to every phenomena, not making any difference between sunshine or rain… I know this… and what you write corresponds perfectly with how I “feel” it is supposed to be done, but still haven’t managed myself to “fully” embrace. Have you never felt the difficulty of getting a hold of every part of that mosaic that you used to call “ego”?
Some parts of me are “elusive” like this part of me that doesn’t want to do the great work at all (I think that my awareness of all processes that is going on inside of me – Isn’t yet that good. This process of “crossing” has much to do with “observation skills” right?) That feeling of wanting to live a normal life and not the life of a beggar. This part that wishes to escape from all of this, back to “utopia”. To quote from my own diary:
"“After 1,5 years I still feel like a guest on the street. If I am correct the universe will not let me move on until I fully identify with being a Beggar, with fully being a child of the street – like the other gypsies.”"
It’s hard for me to accept this destiny, can you understand this? I don’t want to be a Beggar… I don’t want to “feel” what I have been feeling for so long… but I know that I have to adapt or die – there is no other way. I feel forced by the gods to do their biddings and a part of me simply refuses to be submissive, and perhaps that’s why I have to suffer so much?
Do you understand my problem? I “intuitively” know exactly what to do, but it’s hard to have “the whole of my nature” to do what I instinctively know is right – but what feels wrong for that stubborn little child deep down inside of me. He keeps crying over his lost life and all the sacrifices he has had to make. That’s why I keep talking about the “gross must pass through fire”... I therefore sometimes keep “reacting” the wrong way. Do you understand me when I say that it's hard get a hold over every reaction? But of course, eventually I will get there.
I didn’t “choose” to do the Great Work… First I did but then I tried to abandon it... I had this “normal life” and everything. I was content with how things were. But then I was pulled into all this against my own will. Now I am somewhat upset deep down inside, and I feel that this part of me, is still looking for a way back to a regular life... That “false” part of my inner self, has to be overcome and it will take time… I know I am doing it right, but sometimes I fail to “conquer” (meaning staying really “grateful”
) the really dark emotions, then trying to evade them. But I think I will eventually get there… I must keep my spirit up and work my way through this.Thanks, your reply was most helpful, and I actually feel back on track - as if I make a diffrence between the feelings of being "off track" or "back in track!"
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
My initiation has taken a new turn - or to use a more correct expression - it has intensified. I can't pray anymore... Yes, you heard me! My "nature" simply refuses to occupy itself with what I have been doing for more than three weeks.
It seems that my former undertaking was a critical step in this initiation and thus finaly made it possible to accept this new formula of "constant awareness" of that which is going on. This technique is even more effective since it seem to be deepening the experience of "letting go" or "none-attachement".
This new way of handling existance came together with this "Choronzon-like experience", that has been going on for a few days. When I came to feel that "silent observation" was the only thing my nature wanted to stay involved with... Something inside of me simply refuses going back to those prayers. When I try, nothing happens... my tounge and lips simply won't move - it's not even possible doing it within my own mind! Instead, I now greet every experience simply by staying "aware" all the time... There are therefore no more "interruptions", by formulating the words: "Thank you so much". Now there is only constant awareness of that which is going on...
Does this make any sense at all? Not that it matters, this seem like a final "natural" step and I couldn't keep myself from doing it even if you told me to.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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It makes perfect sense; it means to me that you are no longer a closet Christian.
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@Archaeus said
"It makes perfect sense; it means to me that you are no longer a closet Christian."
Is this because he is not "praying" ?
To address some of the thoughts of the original poster:
You seem to be focused on the "begging" aspect and not the "gratitude"
After all, we are reliant on one another to maintain this existenceRecall, that notion of silent observation:
Thou art the King!
Whom merely plays the part of the Beggar
To say you are a "beggar" is a ridiculous notion,
As it is to presume that you are the body,
Not that which gives it life -
I have also often viewed the Abyss as having the pure potential of infinity without the direction of Will
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@Uni_Verse said
"
@Archaeus said
"It makes perfect sense; it means to me that you are no longer a closet Christian."Is this because he is not "praying" ?
To address some of the thoughts of the original poster:
You seem to be focused on the "begging" aspect and not the "gratitude"
After all, we are reliant on one another to maintain this existenceRecall, that notion of silent observation:
Thou art the King!
Whom merely plays the part of the Beggar
To say you are a "beggar" is a ridiculous notion,
As it is to presume that you are the body,
Not that which gives it life"Maybe I was somewhat hasty but I only read in passing; so I should clarify.
I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude. I noticed the recurrence of prayer to God in the OP's posts and the whole overall flavor of Christianity. So maybe the cessation of prayer is a first step towards slaying that demon.Just my opinion though, no doubt mixed with my own projections.
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@Archaeus said
"Maybe I was somewhat hasty but I only read in passing; so I should clarify.
I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude. I noticed the recurrence of prayer to God in the OP's posts and the whole overall flavor of Christianity. So maybe the cessation of prayer is a first step towards slaying that demon.Just my opinion though, no doubt mixed with my own projections."
Are you familiar with the Elemental Prayers ?
Such as that of the Gnomes
Where in, the Magician says the prayer on behalf of the Gnomes,
As opposed to praying to the Gnomes
The prayer becoming an adoration in practice to Adonai -
@Uni_Verse said
"
@Archaeus said
"Maybe I was somewhat hasty but I only read in passing; so I should clarify.
I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude. I noticed the recurrence of prayer to God in the OP's posts and the whole overall flavor of Christianity. So maybe the cessation of prayer is a first step towards slaying that demon.Just my opinion though, no doubt mixed with my own projections."
Are you familiar with the Elemental Prayers ?
Such as that of the Gnomes
Where in, the Magician says the prayer on behalf of the Gnomes,
As opposed to praying to the Gnomes
The prayer becoming an adoration in practice to Adonai"Yes I'm familiar with them, but that wasn't what the OP was doing. I already explained that it seemed as though he was praying to some supreme being to 'save him' or to be grateful to. It doesn't matter though, like I said; maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, it wouldn't be the first time
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Hawkheaded
Sometimes prayer simply stop, as if the mind turns itself inwards and search for silence. Action in general becomes meaningless, almost a disturbance.
Sometimes the key is to fight, but other is just a matter of relax the inner tension and let it flow through you. This intellectual and emotional fever that wants to label everything, control and explain usually is the very source of inner tension.
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@Archaeus said
"I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude."
I wanted, in passing, to remark on this.
Expanded gratitude is distinctly Christian? Sir, I would disagree most fiercely with this. One could argue, instead, that gratitude as a practice is one of the most effective fundamental practices one can undertake.
I agree with Cicero that, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others,” and with Elie Wiesel who wrote, “When a person doesn’t have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity.”
It is (among other things) my fundamental attitude toward Nuit.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Archaeus said
"I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude."I wanted, in passing, to remark on this.
Expanded gratitude is distinctly Christian? Sir, I would disagree most fiercely with this. One could argue, instead, that gratitude as a practice is one of the most effective fundamental practices one can undertake.
I agree with Cicero that, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others,” and with Elie Wiesel who wrote, “When a person doesn’t have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity.”
It is (among other things) my fundamental attitude toward Nuit."
Yeah I knew I was going to regret this post. Something about what I was reading in the OP's posts didn't sound quite right but I guess I can't put my finger on it at the moment. I withdraw my previous statement.
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I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something.
I started to draw that distinction in my own post, then went back and deleted it. It seemed to me to be too... simple, without being grounded in more details, and I thought the generalization was too general to serve well. But it did cross my mind.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something.
I started to draw that distinction in my own post, then went back and deleted it. It seemed to me to be too... simple, without being grounded in more details, and I thought the generalization was too general to serve well. But it did cross my mind."
That sounds about right: I guess I take issue with the idea of Gratitude "to" something/somebody; which would probably be because I'm essentially an atheist. (Or maybe naturalistic pantheist might be a better way to put ut, which makes being grateful to somebody rather untenable) Still; that's no reason to berate somebody for not seeing things from my point of view. I'm getting that a lot recently, must be a phase I'm going through.
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What about gratitude to individuals?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"What about gratitude to individuals?"
That's not the same as gratitude to imaginary friends though is it? I'm grateful to my mother and I'm at least half certain that she exists?
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Archaeus said
"I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude."I wanted, in passing, to remark on this.
Expanded gratitude is distinctly Christian? Sir, I would disagree most fiercely with this. One could argue, instead, that gratitude as a practice is one of the most effective fundamental practices one can undertake.
I agree with Cicero that, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others,” and with Elie Wiesel who wrote, “When a person doesn’t have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity.”
It is (among other things) my fundamental attitude toward Nuit."
Jim! Oh Jim! That is such an beautiful way to put it; you make me once again want to lose myself in those prayers of gratitude. But Hadit in my heart have had enough and refuses to go along with this wish of mine... I keep clapsing my hands, over and over again, trying to do the work of the past... but there is only silence coming from the stillness of my lips.
@Archaeus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something."That sounds about right: I guess I take issue with the idea of Gratitude "to" something/somebody"
I would say that what you talk of here, are both ways the same thing. Doing it both ways, is directing force towards something... Also: I haven't been thankful towards anything - not even when I sang the words: "Oh Lord hear my prayer! Thank you so much!". That song only shows a human heart feverishly occupied with expressing it's current emotional status.
The radio doesn't play for you - it simply plays.
I have all this time been invoking the feeling of gratitude in my heart - like how a man switches on the light in a dark room. Sometimes using phrases like: "Oh Lord hear my prayer! Thank you so much" Only to catch the beauty and to intensify the fever of mine prayers.
I am in love when I do it... Have no doubt about it... My heart is on fire!
I prayed gratitude... I have been invoking the feeling of gratitude... I didn't pray towards anything - even though I sometimes did pretend that I prayed towards something, just to keep the illusion of reality being real... But in reality there is no God but man, and you are all a part of my Khabs...
Patrick Ossoski: I am the universe! You hear me!? I am the universe!
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@ Hawkheaded Lord et al:
I had a bit of a realization this morning: Recently I have seen rather a lot of Order politics, claims and counter-claims of this and that grade and all the rest, and have myself gotten involved in dragging the work of the Order into the realm of common things like a bauble to be owned.I also realize that many of my comments to the OP on this thread stem from the same source of spiritual pride manifesting as criticism of the claims of others. I realize that this kind of thing simply makes the work of the AA into just another item that I am trying to grasp and hold onto in a universe where I can hold nothing but have only my determination to walk the path.
To that end I apologize to the OP and to everyone else for my ego-based comments (There must be hundreds
) And will henceforth get on with my own work and only post when I have something worthwhile to say.93 93/93
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@Archaeus said
"@ Hawkheaded Lord et al:
I had a bit of a realization this morning: Recently I have seen rather a lot of Order politics, claims and counter-claims of this and that grade and all the rest, and have myself gotten involved in dragging the work of the Order into the realm of common things like a bauble to be owned.I also realize that many of my comments to the OP on this thread stem from the same source of spiritual pride manifesting as criticism of the claims of others. I realize that this kind of thing simply makes the work of the AA into just another item that I am trying to grasp and hold onto in a universe where I can hold nothing but have only my determination to walk the path.
To that end I apologize to the OP and to everyone else for my ego-based comments (There must be hundreds
) And will henceforth get on with my own work and only post when I have something worthwhile to say.93 93/93"
Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I respect you for this last post and I think what you say goes for the rest of us too. Thanks for saving me from my own shame and for bringing me back to earth. I apologize for having lured you down this filthy ego-pathic path. I can't help myself for doing it though and probably won't stop doing it.
That harashness towards yourself (Which I too had once, and still is letting go of. I have the same Saturn/virgo conjuction as you do!) is going to be what you will be up against in the abyss. This will be the time when that "paddle" that has brought you so far; will stop working... And you will then suffer immensly for not understanding "how" to submit to the glory of the most high... That good honest heart of yours will take you through this and life as a whole, I'm sure.
Take care...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Archaeus said
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Yes I'm familiar with them, but that wasn't what the OP was doing. I already explained that it seemed as though he was praying to some supreme being to 'save him' or to be grateful to. It doesn't matter though, like I said; maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, it wouldn't be the first time"The idea I was trying to get across is that of agency,
Where in the situation I brought forth, the Magician becomes the conduit of the Divine
Causing the Prayer to rise and the response of Adonai to descend.With the Magician requiring a belief in neither...
Perhaps an example that might better resonate with you :
Even though you personally lean towards Atheism, as a member of the Order were you to be placed in charge of a person more Devotee in character you would work as an agent of their Divine principle regardless of your personal beliefs.