"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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"Though this wasn't addressed to me...
I think it's the wrong basis for a decision. This turns it into "what feels right to me, what I like" - mostly, "what would I like it to say" - rather than, "What does the Book actually say?"
The main import of H.B.'s citing that, I think, is to disarm the equally-invalid basis of assessment, that somebody "likes it better the other way." But, whichever way it makes most sense to you, that shouldn't be the basis of assessing its rightness.
IMVHO."
Hmmm I see. Thanks Jim, I agree.
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@Takamba said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Alrah said
"If you say he is a nice guy Jim, and an honorable one then I believe you, but there are some things that can never be compromised on, and this one is going to run and run."I agree that even the best of people in the best of times don't always get it right.
(That's a generalization. <s>)"In light of this issue concerning the kill/fill/thrill cult, Crowley either got it wrong or got it right. So there's that. Yep."
At the moment, for H.B. to be right then Crowley has to be wrong, and for Crowley to be right, then H.B. has to be wrong.
Isn't this just a crazy situation going down between a present OHO and a past OHO?
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It really doesn't affect me though. I'm not personally changing anything one way or the other. I'm just reading different versions, and so far, no one is making anybody choose between the two versions as authoritative that I can tell.
I did grow up with people arguing over whether or not the King James Version of the Bible was the "Holy Bible" while the other translations weren't. "Says so right there on the cover!" So I'm kind of pessimistic about it.
But so far as I can tell. It just doesn't affect me. I hope it never does.
I'm so ****ing tired of being forced to choose between two things by people who themselves just don't get it.
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@Bereshith said
"I did grow up with people arguing over whether or not the King James Version of the Bible was the "Holy Bible" while the other translations weren't. "Says so right there on the cover!" So I'm kind of pessimistic about it. "
So I learned Hebrew and Greek so I could read the Bible in the original.
It seems "read it in the original" resolves a certain amount of friction in the present instance, as well.
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@Bereshith said
"It really doesn't affect me though. I'm not personally changing anything one way or the other. I'm just reading different versions, and so far, no one is making anybody choose between the two versions as authoritative that I can tell.
I did grow up with people arguing over whether or not the King James Version of the Bible was the "Holy Bible" while the other translations weren't. "Says so right there on the cover!" So I'm kind of pessimistic about it.
But so far as I can tell. It just doesn't affect me. I hope it never does.
I'm so ****ing tired of being forced to choose between two things by people who themselves just don't get it."
I suppose that it doesn't personally affect me either. Nobody is going to break into my flat and start expunging the F from my copy like the Inquisition used to to with books (although apparently modern electronic versions are susceptible to on the fly revisions?). But it is possible that in the future this will grow to be a divisive issue and I wouldn't want any of my descendants suffering the same sort of crap that you grew up with Bereshith. That must have been so.... boring! Urgh!
I think I'm being driven by a sense of duty as well as a love of the books puzzles and beautiful complexities. I just want this one thing... this one book which I have probably explored and had a more tumultuous relationship with over the years than many of my ex-lovers... to just NOT change. Everything else can, and I can change around it - that's OK... but give this one book a couple of thousand years first? That's how I feel.
We get on this magical path and it's a total rollercoaster of change. There needs to be an anchor in something, somewhere, and for a lot of people that something is Liber AL.
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@Alrah said
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At the moment, for H.B. to be right then Crowley has to be wrong, and for Crowley to be right, then H.B. has to be wrong.Isn't this just a crazy situation going down between a present OHO and a past OHO?
"You've got a point there, and from an outsider's point of view of things (not saying you have such, just saying "from such") that would indeed appear to be the case. But H.B. didn't say it was Crowley's mistake, it was the mistake of who ever originally typed up Liber L from the handwritten version (the implication was that this was not Crowley). Crowley's error, according to H.B., was in being lazy and forgetful.
I personally stand with Jim. I'd need more evidence than what has been presented to make such a change. If the only argument that we have is to say that Crowley was too lazy, inattentive, or forgetful to make the "correction" himself all the reprinting during his lifetime, then we probably diminish any other credit we could give the old man.
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Yup - I agree Takamba. And what are we supposed to say to newbies or those just getting interested in Thelema or to our children or grandchildren?
Do we tell little Tommy that "yes, OK - the book said not to change it but the prophet was too lazy to make sure and so a man called H.B. had to sort it out later?" Or will the footnote that H.B. intends to add to the book go missing at some point in the future, from the sheer embarrassment of it all and the little Tommy's of this future world will grow up believing it was always a 'K'? Probably. Even likely. It's a slippery slope.
Yup... I agree Takamba.
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Maybe we should forget the stupid paraphrase altogether and read it in ancient Egyptian.
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@Alrah said
"I suppose that it doesn't personally affect me either. Nobody is going to break into my flat and start expunging the F from my copy like the Inquisition used to to with books (although apparently modern electronic versions are susceptible to on the fly revisions?)."
One of the many reasons I won't be buying DRMed ebooks.
More reasons not to buy DRMed ebooks here.
www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm -
Jim - thank you for taking the time and trouble to critique H.B.'s explanation and weigh the facts. I don't disagree with anything you've said, and you've done a far better job of it than I could have. 93's.
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@Alrah said
"Yup - I agree Takamba. And what are we supposed to say to newbies or those just getting interested in Thelema or to our children or grandchildren?
Do we tell little Tommy that "yes, OK - the book said not to change it but the prophet was too lazy to make sure and so a man called H.B. had to sort it out later?" Or will the footnote that H.B. intends to add to the book go missing at some point in the future, from the sheer embarrassment of it all and the little Tommy's of this future world will grow up believing it was always a 'K'? Probably. Even likely. It's a slippery slope.
Yup... I agree Takamba."
One of the points that H.B. makes in his "20 pages" (I call it) is that Crowley did "change so much as the style of a letter" and you can see it in the manuscript itself where he crosses out something and writes something else (a correction as dictated by Rose, for instance). Now, my beef is that H.B. uses this as justification that Crowley can (as the Prophet) make such a move, yet he never in his life time made that move with fill/kill (except in that one copy of Thelema in question). I think Los would have a field day with that kind of "reasoning."
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@Jason R said
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What do you think (in case you missed this part) about "kill" being suitable to the title "self-slain"? Just curious. It does seem to make sense though. Right?"
It also makes sense to me, at least intuitively - in relationship to the other powerful and violent energy of the third chapter - perhaps bringing it all into a deeper context.
I can't help but wonder if this isn't some sort of practical joke, perhaps serving a higher purpose - that Crowley intentionally set up to cause a 'stir' years later in the community. I would imagine Crowley could have made quite clear what it should be considering his life revolved around this text. considering your point, it is about 'changing not the style of the letter' and here we have somewhat of what, at least the OTO claims, is a paradoxical situation to be in.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript.""
Part of this information is in the blog piece.
@HB said
"From Crowley's conversations recorded in 1924 by Norman Mudd, we know that a typescript was prepared in Cairo, and that three copies were made:
“Three typed copies made in Cairo. One used by publishers of Zaehnsdorf edition (Chiswick Press) previous to rediscovery of MSS. Errors in vellum books due to the fact that this typescript not properly checked from MSS.”"
So these typescripts were made before they left Cairo - meaning immediately after the dictation, within days at most. By "vellum books" that had errors, he meant the 1909 edition of Thelema. This surely means, therefore, that the verse numbers were penciled in almost immediately after the dictation. (The versification in Thelema matches that in all later versions (and with the way they are penciled on the original manuscript), so it seems highly likely that these were there when the typescripts were made. It only makes sense that the instructions penciled in verse 37 (to include the text from "vellum book" meaning, in this case, his poetic paraphrase) were also inserted already, to benefit the typist.
Bottom line: If the (flawed) typescripts from which Thelema was later typeset were made before they left Egypt, then the penciled addition was made immediately after the dictation - perhaps as soon as the same day, having roughly the same time relation to the original dictation as Rose's additions. This also means that "fill me" was written onto the manuscript (by Crowley's hand) within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases - not some long time after when his memory could be faulty - and that it was done while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession.
If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sens that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.
Still under investigation... but added while it was fresh in my mind.
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Aum! Let them bill me!
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93, I think Jim has posted an insightful and substantial response here that significantly informs the debate, so I would encourage people to share it on FB and other community forums to make sure it get's the proper coverage it deserves.
Btw Jim, One thing I'm being told is that the vellum book is lost so H.B. cannot know what was actually written in it.
93 93/93.
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Yes, AFAIK it's lost.
Nonetheless, based on the secondary (or indirect) evidence, I'm 93% sure the original said "kill."
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Why does it have to be one or the other?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes, AFAIK it's lost.
Nonetheless, based on the secondary (or indirect) evidence, I'm 93% sure the original said "kill.""
It just goes to show the weaknesses of the case H.B. makes though. It's circumstantial evidence based on at least 2 assumptions. The first is the assumption that 'fill me' is a mistake. There is no evidence to back that assumption. The second is the assumption that we know what was in the vellum book, when infact we can only speculate on what was in it on the basis of probabilities.
I know that in courts there is a requirement that the more serious the crime committed then the evidence must be stronger and carry more weight to get a conviction, whereas for misdemeanors or in exceptional circumstances then a judge can weigh evidence on the basis of probabilities.
The way I see it, is that following the 2 assumptions he makes then he presents a well reasoned case, but there is no 'smoking gun'.
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"In my travels I have learned to be cautious. “The Great Invocation” and the Paraphrase were both “corrected” by yours truly in Magick (Liber ABA) (1994 and later editions) to change their original readings of "kill me" to “fill me”—a woefully misguided attempt to make these non-Class A texts agree with what I had every reason to assume was the correct reading in Liber Legis. I think I originally picked up the “fill me” version by “picking up” (a term of art for cutting and pasting from another electronic document) part of the Paraphrase from Liber CCXX to save time, and failed to catch the different wording. In a later revision I decided to let it stand, and just annotated it as such, thinking that one of the readings had to be wrong, and it couldn’t be the Class A, could it? This was an object lesson for me: wait for the source material. You might have to wait a hundred years, but it may turn up."
An object lesson evidently not learned! We're still waiting for the source material (vellum notebook) to show up, so it looks like "yours truly" is heading for another woefully misguided attempt.
BTW: Isn't the word you're looking for 'abject?' "object" is what everyone is doing to another woefully misguided attempt.
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@Carrot_Childe said
""In my travels I have learned to be cautious. “The Great Invocation” and the Paraphrase were both “corrected” by yours truly in Magick (Liber ABA) (1994 and later editions) to change their original readings of "kill me" to “fill me”—a woefully misguided attempt to make these non-Class A texts agree with what I had every reason to assume was the correct reading in Liber Legis. I think I originally picked up the “fill me” version by “picking up” (a term of art for cutting and pasting from another electronic document) part of the Paraphrase from Liber CCXX to save time, and failed to catch the different wording. In a later revision I decided to let it stand, and just annotated it as such, thinking that one of the readings had to be wrong, and it couldn’t be the Class A, could it? This was an object lesson for me: wait for the source material. You might have to wait a hundred years, but it may turn up."
An object lesson evidently not learned! We're still waiting for the source material (vellum notebook) to show up, so it looks like "yours truly" is heading for another woefully misguided attempt.
BTW: Isn't the word you're looking for 'abject?' "object" is what everyone is doing to another woefully misguided attempt.
"CC... Jim has jokingly estimated that the vellum would say 'kill' at a 93% probability. But what is 'really' known about the vellum book? To quote an old movie... 'gimmie the facts man!' What are the facts that we can safely say about the vellum book, and what is guesswork, speculations and wishful thinking on the part of H.B.?
We shall all be 'abject' until you answer!
