Franz Bardon's magick and method
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@Frater Horus said
"What do you think was Bardon's level on the tree of life?"
The Four Worlds are a better map for overall attainement than the Sephiroth alone. But in A.'.A.'. terms, anything from 5=6 to 8=3. Roughly, of course.
"What do you think about his method as described in his three books?"
Looks solid and I know people who worked with his material in a productive way.
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It seems powerful to me as well. Most of his stuff is very straight to the point and applyable. All about drilling the basics again and again. I remember one winter night, it was cold as hell and i was riding a bike. I could barely feel my hands and i did his alchemy stuff to be able to get home haha. Great experiences with his method of "rising on the planes" and evocations(second book) also.
The third book(qabala) very interesting indeed. But it seems very advanced. Doesnt it take adepthood to master this kind of "dynamic" qabala?
One thing that confuses me in the first book is contacting the HGA with a pendulum, at this rather early phase of training. Doesnt this surprise you? Do you think it is his way of inducing "vision of Adonai" of Malkuth?
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@Frater Horus said
"One thing that confuses me in the first book is contacting the HGA with a pendulum, at this rather early phase of training. Doesnt this surprise you? Do you think it is his way of inducing "vision of Adonai" of Malkuth?"
That probably corresponds to the "Vision of Adonai".
Bardon's version of "HGA" is the "personal god" method from chapter 10 of his first book.
@indeed93 said
"I've heard stories that Germer was trying to recognize Bardon as a Master of the Temple but discussions fell off for one reason or another."
I would be surprised as there would only have been a very narrow time window in Bardon's life when this would have been possible, but who knows.
@Frater Horus said
"It feels funny a post-Crowley Christian"
Bardon was not a Christian in any sense of the word.
He cites the Liber Al a few time in his three books.
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I've not read Bardon for more than a year... from what i remember he called himself a christian, and/or mentioned Jesus, but also said what is important is having a religion, certainly not being a christian in particular. So from this i dont think he would not be "anti" anything. Were is he supposed to mention Crowley or Liber?
Also, as he clearly considers himself a magician from the Hermetic tradition, his christianhood(in theory and practice) may be way closer to Kybalion and Liber than to sunday's local church blabla anyway.
Something interesting about Bardon is he seemed a very simple, quiet, solitary guy... very different from 666 globaly... Complementary point of vue maybe.
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@Frater Horus said
"It seems powerful to me as well. Most of his stuff is very straight to the point and applyable. All about drilling the basics again and again. I remember one winter night, it was cold as hell and i was riding a bike. I could barely feel my hands and i did his alchemy stuff to be able to get home haha. Great experiences with his method of "rising on the planes" and evocations(second book) also."
My initial practices were based on what was in his first book.
It provides the smallest amount of theory possible, all exercises, experimentation.@Frater Horus said
"The third book(qabala) very interesting indeed. But it seems very advanced. Doesnt it take adepthood to master this kind of "dynamic" qabala?"
You need to have at least completed up to Step 8 in Initiation before trying to work with his Kabbalah.
It requires, amongst other things, the ability to project ones intent beyond a persons conscious mind. -
@kasper81 said
"still waiting for evidence where Bardon cited Liber Al
ie hell hasn't frozen over yet"
Okay, off the cuff ...
Step 10, Initiation into Hermetics, "Magic Mental Training":
"He must keep the motto in mind: love is the law, but love under a strong will."
Somewhere in "Evocation":
"Universal symbols, signs, seals of intelligences, divine names, and the like, may serve this purpose as far as they represent the true will-power of the magician."
"Never should the magician forget that the wand represents his true will in its completeness, absoluteness and power, which may well be compared with a magical oath, and therefore many magicians have their magic wand symbolize not only their will-power, but also the magical oath, which, from the hermetic point of view, may never and can never be broken."
Etc.
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@kasper81 said
"i see what you mean but are they really Thelemic Crowleyan references or homages?
. If he respected Liber Al and Crowley then he would've come out and admitted openly the influence that the latter had upon him
Why didn't he? That was my pointTrue will-power? That isn't true will"
Isn't this point of view a bit dogmatic?
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Whatever contact Bardon may or may not have had with Crowley. The Initiation into Hermetics training schedule in Bardon's first book is applicable to virtually any system or path. Thelemic technique I feel is especially applicable because of the fusion of ritual and yoga that Crowley pioneered. Initiation into Hermetics in my opinion is particularly relevant to the thelemic practitioner from the standpoint of technique.
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@axismundi said
"The Initiation into Hermetics training schedule in Bardon's first book is applicable to virtually any system or path. Thelemic technique I feel is especially applicable because of the fusion of ritual and yoga that Crowley pioneered. Initiation into Hermetics in my opinion is particularly relevant to the thelemic practitioner from the standpoint of technique."
I agree. IIH is a good primer.
But much of it is dross. Which makes it a good primer.
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@Frater 639 said
"
I agree. IIH is a good primer.
But much of it is dross. Which makes it a good primer.
"I feel it is more than a good primer. From step 8 (arguably step 6) the material provides the practitioner with experiences and abilities that are not commonly described elsewhere. I'm thinking specifically about the Akasha work and electromagnetic 'volting' as examples.
A lot of the 'secret stuff'
in Alexandrian Wicca is Bardon adapted for group work; the artificial elementals for example, the terminology is changed but the underlying principals are the same.The whole idea of IIH is that it is a universal key so it lacks in my view 'dross'. It is stripped down so you can plug it into an existing system: Enochian, Wicca, Runes, Druidry, Goetia; I'm not just listing these I have used IIH stuff in these or with the other listed paths have seen the techniques being adapted but no recognition that they come from Bardon by the authors.
In fact I think that it is only in the Thelemic instructions, that different but comparable quality techniques can be found, for example 'SSS' the astral raising of kundalini.
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@axismundi said
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@Frater 639 said
"I agree. IIH is a good primer.
But much of it is dross. Which makes it a good primer.
"I feel it is more than a good primer. From step 8 (arguably step 6) the material provides the practitioner with experiences and abilities that are not commonly described elsewhere. I'm thinking specifically about the Akasha work and electromagnetic 'volting' as examples.
A lot of the 'secret stuff'
in Alexandrian Wicca is Bardon adapted for group work; the artificial elementals for example, the terminology is changed but the underlying principals are the same.The whole idea of IIH is that it is a universal key so it lacks in my view 'dross'. It is stripped down so you can plug it into an existing system: Enochian, Wicca, Runes, Druidry, Goetia; I'm not just listing these I have used IIH stuff in these or with the other listed paths have seen the techniques being adapted but no recognition that they come from Bardon by the authors.
In fact I think that it is only in the Thelemic instructions, that different but comparable quality techniques can be found, for example 'SSS' the astral raising of kundalini."
Cool. I agree with your assessment of "volting" -- I think it is useful when working with an "energy" model. However, lots of his techniques and ideas are very Old Aeonic IMHO. He seems to rely on glamor instead of a more quantitative approach with his explanations -- which I would assume is partly due to limited scientific apprehension of the phenomena. Also, his training suggestions are a little slavish from a certain POV. To clarify, I'm not arguing that some concepts aren't useful...
Kasper: I completely agree with your assessment of the brush exercise -- a non-synthetic brush, no less -- if I recall correctly. As if the mindfulness exercise Bardon is trying to convey needs to be slavishly imitated. Again, I'm not doubting that anyone can benefit from an obvious Dharana exercise, but the tone that he uses does seem to be a little "wack."
I have yet to see someone raise the dead, too. His ideas on magical mirrors are hilarious in some places. Anyway, I still stand by the idea that it is a good primer -- very useful from the POV of learning to cut through bullshit with experimentation.
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I have not discussed technique amongst Thelemites (presumably) for some time, the demeanour is refreshing irrespective of whether or not I agree.
There is merit in the responses however I make the following simple point. Bardon's stuff is adapted for use by other systems (often without recognition) more then any other I have come across. IIH is much more then a primer and dovetails into his other stuff perfectly, the system is coherent and largely dross free.
The only other coherent body of Magickal technique which reaches to the very highest level that I know of is Crowley's system. I'm sure there are others but they are not generally obtainable from amazon and you probably need to 'kiss arse' to gain the 'secrets'.
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@kasper81 said
"I'll tell you 2 wack things he said
1
A magician could unwittingly, somnambulistically sign his "soul" over to a demon so at the point of death, the demontakes his soul2
Using someone who is not "morally pure" as a sex-magick vessel is horrendously degenerate and immoral3
This wack crap about eye-washes
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Elemental control can allow a man to melt snow on distant mountain tops
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If a selfish business man evokes spirits for wealth his house becomes possessed by them unless exorcisedEtc etc
This stuff about electro magnetism and the astral light"
If we judge people by only the "wack crap" they spew from time to time, no matter how brilliant they otherwise are - Kasper my boy, you be wack.
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Essential point missed.
Anyone can be subjected to hyper criticism, and come out smelling bad. Crowley said some pretty wack stuff.
If you're evaluating something in good faith, one ought to be careful not to cherry pick samples and base the conclusion on them.
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Also, some of these one-liners are subject to more than one reading. I suspect that, in some cases, the meaning is nearly the opposite of what it first seems - much like most things Levi ever wrote.
Take No. 2. Among initiates, "morally pure" in sexual matters means unconflicted about one's sexuality and sexual activities, e.g., informed, alert, and totally feeling good about what she's doing (and wanting to be doing it). If that's what Bardon meant (I can't be sure), then I agree with his statement entirely.
