Secret Chiefs and attainment
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Curious about Mr. Eshelman's position on this, too.
The way I understand it the highest triad of AA grades are evolutionary agents for the whole of mankind.
Masters of the Temple can found organisations like the AA.
Magi initiate a whole planet, kickstarting new 2000-year-paradigms or supporting or facilitating those paradigms if they are not the kickstarter.
Ipsissimi swear an oath "to retreat into their human person and stay silent about this attainment".So, the grade of Ipsissimus is the most senior grade formulated (a chief) and secret too.
The Secret Chiefs are, in the AA measuring scale, of the grade of Ipisissimus. They initiate those who found things like the AA and initiate whole planets.
And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking.
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@Simon Iff said
"Curious about Mr. Eshelman's position on this, too.
The way I understand it the highest triad of AA grades are evolutionary agents for the whole of mankind.
Masters of the Temple can found organisations like the AA.
Magi initiate a whole planet, kickstarting new 2000-year-paradigms or supporting or facilitating those paradigms if they are not the kickstarter.
Ipsissimi swear an oath "to retreat into their human person and stay silent about this attainment".So, the grade of Ipsissimus is the most senior grade formulated (a chief) and secret too.
The Secret Chiefs are, in the AA measuring scale, of the grade of Ipisissimus. They initiate those who found things like the AA and initiate whole planets.
And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking."
Nice...
How do you understand "retreat into their human person"? doesnt it sound contradictory to the atainment itself?! what is supposed to happen doin so?
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@Frater Horus said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"But there is common sense data that we can let guide us in place of this nonsense about the supernals, right?"Let who "guide" us? HGA?
Why "nonsense"?"
It was a tongue in cheek comment about denying the supernals, and making a false crown out of Da'ath.
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@danica said
"http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_09.html"
Re-reading that, I have nothing to add. Including to Los: You'll find your answer to the question you asked me in there.
Also, the secrecy of the Ipsissimus grade, plus what Crowley has to say about OIVZ in there, plus your (Los') discussion about the contradiction between OIVZ being his HGA and a sumerian man, resolves the contradiction, does it not.
Regards
Simon
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@Simon Iff said
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@danica said
"http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_09.html"Re-reading that, I have nothing to add. Including to Los: You'll find your answer to the question you asked me in there.
Also, the secrecy of the Ipsissimus grade, plus what Crowley has to say about OIVZ in there, plus your (Los') discussion about the contradiction between OIVZ being his HGA and a sumerian man, resolves the contradiction, does it not.
Regards
Simon"
I'm quite sure that Los will merely point out that this is part of the 33 or 50 percent of "it" Crowley got wrong. It's the simplest argument.
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@Simon Iff said
"Re-reading that, I have nothing to add. Including to Los: You'll find your answer to the question you asked me in there."
No, I won't. I asked you what convinced you that the so-called "Secret Chiefs" actually exist. I can't learn what convinced you from reading what Crowley had to say. Now sure, maybe Crowley was convinced by something that also convinced you, or maybe it was reading Crowley itself that convinced you, but I can't learn that just by reading Crowley. You have to tell me if you want me to know.
Just to be super clear, I suspect that you've been convinced for really crappy reasons, but I'm willing to change my mind. Of course, I can't change my mind if you won't answer me, which of course you haven't done so far.
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@Takamba said
"I'm quite sure that Los will merely point out that this is part of the 33 or 50 percent of "it" Crowley got wrong. It's the simplest argument."
Assuming that you're referring to Crowley's ramblings about invisible magic men guiding him, the optimist in me holds out the possibility that he was just deliberately making up those stories to flatter his own vanity and to impress the supremely gullible. 'Course, it's always possible that he was just simply wrong and not consciously faking. Or perhaps he was "losing it" at the end of his life.
I think it's unlikely we'll ever know for sure, but we can be reasonably sure that invisible goblins aren't directing the events of the world, allowing "Frater Superiors" to discover annotated books at just the right time, or delivering daydreams (oh, excuse me, "communications") that appoint people grand poobahs of the Elk Lodge.
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@Los said
"Assuming that you're referring to Crowley's ramblings about invisible magic men guiding him, the optimist in me holds out the possibility that he was just deliberately making up those stories to flatter his own vanity and to impress the supremely gullible. 'Course, it's always possible that he was just simply wrong and not consciously faking. Or perhaps he was "losing it" at the end of his life.
I think it's unlikely we'll ever know for sure, but we can be reasonably sure that invisible goblins aren't directing the events of the world, allowing "Frater Superiors" to discover annotated books at just the right time, or delivering daydreams (oh, excuse me, "communications") that appoint people grand poobahs of the Elk Lodge."
LOL @ LOS
False, deluded, wrong, mistaken.
Simply put, "he got it wrong."
Thought so. Simple enough. Answers every thing.
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@Los said
"Assuming that you're referring to Crowley's ramblings about invisible magic men guiding him, the optimist in me holds out the possibility that he was just deliberately making up those stories to flatter his own vanity and to impress the supremely gullible. 'Course, it's always possible that he was just simply wrong and not consciously faking. Or perhaps he was "losing it" at the end of his life."
Why do you feel the need to be optimistic?
You should open your self up, stop assuming or hoping -
Allow the Universe to speak to you.
Its Word is more powerful than childish theories and dreams.@Takamba said
"LOL @ LOSFalse, deluded, wrong, mistaken.Simply put, "he got it wrong."Thought so. Simple enough. Answers every thing."
I do not think his reply was that simple.
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@Frater Horus said
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@Simon Iff said
"Curious about Mr. Eshelman's position on this, too.The way I understand it the highest triad of AA grades are evolutionary agents for the whole of mankind.
Masters of the Temple can found organisations like the AA.
Magi initiate a whole planet, kickstarting new 2000-year-paradigms or supporting or facilitating those paradigms if they are not the kickstarter.
Ipsissimi swear an oath "to retreat into their human person and stay silent about this attainment".So, the grade of Ipsissimus is the most senior grade formulated (a chief) and secret too.
The Secret Chiefs are, in the AA measuring scale, of the grade of Ipisissimus. They initiate those who found things like the AA and initiate whole planets.
And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking."
Nice...
How do you understand "retreat into their human person"? doesnt it sound contradictory to the atainment itself?! what is supposed to happen doin so?"
From what I have read that someone who reaches the grade of Ipsissimus is required to remain silent about their attainment, or at least it's insisted upon.
I'm not sure WHY exactly that is, but I could imagine it has something to do with the nature of the grade and the idea of silence and the sound of breath. -
@milkBoxx said
" From what I have read that someone who reaches the grade of Ipsissimus is required to remain silent about their attainment, or at least it's insisted upon. I'm not sure WHY exactly that is, but I could imagine it has something to do with the nature of the grade and the idea of silence and the sound of breath."
One only gains a gleaming upon crossing The Abyss - even then it is conjecture until Union.
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@kasper81 said
"It's plain wack. I mean the very name itself, "secret chief" is hilarious isn't it?"
It is. Plus the fact that, as far as I can tell, the concept of "Secret Chiefs" was just made up out of the blue in the eighteenth century.
But facts have never stopped wackadoos from claiming "contact" with all sorts of exalted spiritual forces.
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@kasper81 said
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@Frater Horus said
"I was wondering how is supposed to be related general attainment to communication with the Secret Chiefs. If there's a step where it is likely? Strong? Is there union with them?Also, is it considered possible to become a Secret Chief?
And what is their "power"(or position in the tree)? More than Magus? Ipsissimus?"
as a teenager this seemed all so mysterious and freaky and awesome. Now, as an adult, I cannot believe that Crowley was at all serious about this. It's plain wack. I mean the very name itself, "secret chief" is hilarious isn't it?
Then again maybe it is for the teenagers only
To see what you are veering into here I suggest you watch some youtube films on channellers switching on their possession by aliens. It's great stuff watching these fraudsters getting away with it"
I can honestly say, that given what I have seen and witnessed since things have really started for myself, the idea of "Secret Chiefs" does not seem out of
the realm of possibility. In fact, I would say in my view that it's more than possible, that it's fact. I wont claim to have contact with these beings, because I have yet to have anything like that happen. But, I have seen enough to know that this world is not what we think it is and when you see something that changes you forever you wont doubt the possibility that what we call "Secret Chiefs" could certainly be another phrase for something we cannot explain, and yet (Some of us) experience it anyway. As far as fraudsters are concerned, there certainly are many of them. However, simply because fraudsters exist does not negate the possibility of something genuine existing as well. It's like if I go to buy a car, simply because I have a negative experience does not mean EVERYONE is going to have a negative experience at some shitty dealership. Some people may go to a great dealer and have a positive experience, does not mean I should simply write off the idea that this is HOW IT IS. I certainly would never claim that I know for a fact something does not exist or that it's silly, I keep an open mind with just about everything. I still maintain doubt, but a little humility about this world we live in can go a long way. -
@kasper81 said
"as a teenager this seemed all so mysterious and freaky and awesome. Now, as an adult, I cannot believe that Crowley was at all serious about this. It's plain wack. I mean the very name itself, "secret chief" is hilarious isn't it?"
There are "Secret Chiefs," various personages of wealth and power, pulling the strings of government -
Is it so far fetched to propose there are exceptionally spiritual beings effecting the evolution of mankind?Perhaps the reality of the situation does not live up to the legend, they may be just "normal people" who only think they are in control of world events (though invariably have some effect).
@Los said
"It is. Plus the fact that, as far as I can tell, the concept of "Secret Chiefs" was just made up out of the blue in the eighteenth century."
An entirely inaccurate statement.
The idea of Secret Chiefs and Hidden Masters has been the foundation of various Orders [and traditions] going back thousands of years. -
@milkBoxx said
"I can honestly say, that given what I have seen and witnessed since things have really started for myself, the idea of "Secret Chiefs" does not seem out of
the realm of possibility. In fact, I would say in my view that it's more than possible, that it's fact."So I'll ask you the same question that Simon ran away from: what convinced you that these "Secret Chiefs" actually exist?
As was the case with Simon, I suspect that you've been convinced for crappy reasons, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise.