Franz Bardon's magick and method
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@axismundi said
"The Initiation into Hermetics training schedule in Bardon's first book is applicable to virtually any system or path. Thelemic technique I feel is especially applicable because of the fusion of ritual and yoga that Crowley pioneered. Initiation into Hermetics in my opinion is particularly relevant to the thelemic practitioner from the standpoint of technique."
I agree. IIH is a good primer.
But much of it is dross. Which makes it a good primer.
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@Frater 639 said
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I agree. IIH is a good primer.
But much of it is dross. Which makes it a good primer.
"I feel it is more than a good primer. From step 8 (arguably step 6) the material provides the practitioner with experiences and abilities that are not commonly described elsewhere. I'm thinking specifically about the Akasha work and electromagnetic 'volting' as examples.
A lot of the 'secret stuff'
in Alexandrian Wicca is Bardon adapted for group work; the artificial elementals for example, the terminology is changed but the underlying principals are the same.The whole idea of IIH is that it is a universal key so it lacks in my view 'dross'. It is stripped down so you can plug it into an existing system: Enochian, Wicca, Runes, Druidry, Goetia; I'm not just listing these I have used IIH stuff in these or with the other listed paths have seen the techniques being adapted but no recognition that they come from Bardon by the authors.
In fact I think that it is only in the Thelemic instructions, that different but comparable quality techniques can be found, for example 'SSS' the astral raising of kundalini.
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@axismundi said
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@Frater 639 said
"I agree. IIH is a good primer.
But much of it is dross. Which makes it a good primer.
"I feel it is more than a good primer. From step 8 (arguably step 6) the material provides the practitioner with experiences and abilities that are not commonly described elsewhere. I'm thinking specifically about the Akasha work and electromagnetic 'volting' as examples.
A lot of the 'secret stuff'
in Alexandrian Wicca is Bardon adapted for group work; the artificial elementals for example, the terminology is changed but the underlying principals are the same.The whole idea of IIH is that it is a universal key so it lacks in my view 'dross'. It is stripped down so you can plug it into an existing system: Enochian, Wicca, Runes, Druidry, Goetia; I'm not just listing these I have used IIH stuff in these or with the other listed paths have seen the techniques being adapted but no recognition that they come from Bardon by the authors.
In fact I think that it is only in the Thelemic instructions, that different but comparable quality techniques can be found, for example 'SSS' the astral raising of kundalini."
Cool. I agree with your assessment of "volting" -- I think it is useful when working with an "energy" model. However, lots of his techniques and ideas are very Old Aeonic IMHO. He seems to rely on glamor instead of a more quantitative approach with his explanations -- which I would assume is partly due to limited scientific apprehension of the phenomena. Also, his training suggestions are a little slavish from a certain POV. To clarify, I'm not arguing that some concepts aren't useful...
Kasper: I completely agree with your assessment of the brush exercise -- a non-synthetic brush, no less -- if I recall correctly. As if the mindfulness exercise Bardon is trying to convey needs to be slavishly imitated. Again, I'm not doubting that anyone can benefit from an obvious Dharana exercise, but the tone that he uses does seem to be a little "wack."
I have yet to see someone raise the dead, too. His ideas on magical mirrors are hilarious in some places. Anyway, I still stand by the idea that it is a good primer -- very useful from the POV of learning to cut through bullshit with experimentation.
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I have not discussed technique amongst Thelemites (presumably) for some time, the demeanour is refreshing irrespective of whether or not I agree.
There is merit in the responses however I make the following simple point. Bardon's stuff is adapted for use by other systems (often without recognition) more then any other I have come across. IIH is much more then a primer and dovetails into his other stuff perfectly, the system is coherent and largely dross free.
The only other coherent body of Magickal technique which reaches to the very highest level that I know of is Crowley's system. I'm sure there are others but they are not generally obtainable from amazon and you probably need to 'kiss arse' to gain the 'secrets'.
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@kasper81 said
"I'll tell you 2 wack things he said
1
A magician could unwittingly, somnambulistically sign his "soul" over to a demon so at the point of death, the demontakes his soul2
Using someone who is not "morally pure" as a sex-magick vessel is horrendously degenerate and immoral3
This wack crap about eye-washes
4
Elemental control can allow a man to melt snow on distant mountain tops
5
If a selfish business man evokes spirits for wealth his house becomes possessed by them unless exorcisedEtc etc
This stuff about electro magnetism and the astral light"
If we judge people by only the "wack crap" they spew from time to time, no matter how brilliant they otherwise are - Kasper my boy, you be wack.
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Essential point missed.
Anyone can be subjected to hyper criticism, and come out smelling bad. Crowley said some pretty wack stuff.
If you're evaluating something in good faith, one ought to be careful not to cherry pick samples and base the conclusion on them.
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Also, some of these one-liners are subject to more than one reading. I suspect that, in some cases, the meaning is nearly the opposite of what it first seems - much like most things Levi ever wrote.
Take No. 2. Among initiates, "morally pure" in sexual matters means unconflicted about one's sexuality and sexual activities, e.g., informed, alert, and totally feeling good about what she's doing (and wanting to be doing it). If that's what Bardon meant (I can't be sure), then I agree with his statement entirely.
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From my personal interactions with Takamba I feel that he is very artistic in the manner in which he can hold a mirror, at just the right angle so that we can best see what we need to see in our reflection. Not many people I know can do that, and I am always grateful when he shares this talent with me. Even though it sometimes does not show my thought, words and beliefs in a nice light, it is none the less the light that is needed for me to see how I am shackling myself.
When I read his statement, I was clearly able to see my own "wackedness" and feel gratitude that even though I may say or believe some pretty wacky things (here) at times, it's not held against me.
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93,
"Crowley did not make consistent wack claims. See method of science etc. Bardon's wackness puts his method into disrepute imo."
I disagree, the Crowley who wrote liber aba and the Crowley who wrote some of the letters in magick without tears were definitely two sides to one coin. He claimed he had levitated-people had saw him do it a few times. That he could turn invisible etc. The giy claimed to have talked to Gods, that a being called Aiwass told him things.....from an outside perception those are pretty high claims....I personally believe the last one, but my own thoughts on what the HGA is perhaps makes it less whack. Whilst we're on the subject Crowley changed his view of the HGA like a hundred times, one minute its a separate being another minute its a part of the unconscious mind.....the latter seems more credible (to most people), but it would seem that in the end of it all he settled with the former.
The only occultist who comes to mind who hasn't made these sorts of claims is Regardie, I haven't read all of his work, but what I have is usually very detailed, excellent and usually down to earth and very 'real'.
Of course I wasn't there, maybe Crowley could do all the things mentioned. My point is Crowley was still one of the greats and still made some pretty unbelievable claims. Sure Bardons are a litttle more 'out there' but I would say Kenneth Grants more nuts. Bardon had some great ideas and techniques, I have heard his book on qabalah is pretty good from a friend whom I trust....if we judged crowley from a few quotes from his work you'd be saying he was a whack or a weirdo or perverted old man who condoned sacrifice of children.
He wasn't any of those things.....
"As for Takamba's unconstructive, perrenial smart assed tone which has some sort of sleight of mind over Jim... Another story"
pots calling kettles black.
93, 93/93.
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I've never read him either, but I learned this...
Franz Bardon (December 1, 1909 â July 10, 1958), was a Czech stage magician and student and teacher of Hermetics. He was born in Opava, Austrian Silesia. During World War II Bardon was held in a concentration camp for refusing to participate in Nazi mysticism. Bardon was rescued by Russian soldiers who raided the camp. Bardon continued his work in the fields of Hermetics until 1958 when he was arrested and imprisoned in Brno Czechoslovakia. Bardon died on July 10, 1958 while in the custody of police.
Wondering what sort of books he lists in his bibliographies....
I find this brief bio of him stirring much admiration towards him, he must have been a very courageous person. I am also intrigued by the fact that he was a stage magician who seems to have studied much more then tricks of diversion, glamour and presence. I doubt Copperfield or the Las Vegas performers have hermetics under their belt. This man seemingly not only wanted to enertain people but help them reach new potentials of personal growth. His methods I am sure appealed to the general public, much like Silver RavenWolf would today, a nice introduction laced with much deeper theory for those who are able and willing to see them.
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The thing to bear in mind on any forum is that you can never change another's view, or at least they will rarely admit it if you do. Having an argument is analogous to shouting at a brick wall and as productive. Any post may glean more info which is useful but trying to 'win' anything is futile.
Also it has to born in mind that the forum members could be anyone from a 14year old spotty fapping teenager to a wheelchair bound 80yr old.A pinch of salt gentlemen?
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Actually... I'll have some salt all around the rim and an orange slice if you don't mind...
Welcome to the bar. The regulars are highly intelligent, unapologetically eccentric, strongly opinionated, powerful personalities.
Have a drink. Don't worry so much about the immovable objects and irresistable forces. We collide.
Tell us some more about your experience with Bardon. My memory of him is shakey. I read him straight through very early on my path. Some of it stuck, like the creation of qabalistic words of power. Some of it was, you know..."What's the point of telling me all the positive and negative flows of all my internal organs?" Did you ever find a practical use for that instruction?
Did you ever work with his evocation system? I've heard it's mostly taken from old German grimoires. It's strange to me that there are different "entities" attributed to slightly different zodiacal degree separations than are usually given by Golden Dawn systems. It makes me think when you pick up an evocation system, you're getting a lot of the original evoker's own psycho-spiritual organization of Reality - strange that others seem to be able to tap into each different system with pretty consistent results. Thoughts?
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@kasper81 said
"constant pissy smart ass statements following my posts
like being in a {*******} gay bar"
@Jim Eshelman said
"You have something against {*******} gay bars? Hmm. My girlfriend's and my four favorite bars in New York City are gay bars. (They're just great bars.)"
I just have to continue to enjoy this (slightly) off topic direction by adding something a friend of a friend of mine created and I hope you'll all enjoy as much as I do.
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@Legis said
"Tell us some more about your experience with Bardon. My memory of him is shakey. I read him straight through very early on my path. Some of it stuck, like the creation of qabalistic words of power. Some of it was, you know..."What's the point of telling me all the positive and negative flows of all my internal organs?" Did you ever find a practical use for that instruction?
Did you ever work with his evocation system? I've heard it's mostly taken from old German grimoires. It's strange to me that there are different "entities" attributed to slightly different zodiacal degree separations than are usually given by Golden Dawn systems. It makes me think when you pick up an evocation system, you're getting a lot of the original evoker's own psycho-spiritual organization of Reality - strange that others seem to be able to tap into each different system with pretty consistent results. Thoughts?"
Hello there. In an effort to try to keep this interesting conversation going, I'd like to take a stab at answering some of these questions:
I encountered Bardon very early on my Path. My ideas of qabalistic Words of Power are more from A.'.A.'. training. I did find Bardon's take on energy visualization (pore breathing, volting, etc. in particular) to help with garnering sufficient energized enthusiasm early on; although, it wasn't slavishly imitated -- I substituted and experimented at will, as I was encouraged to do. When it comes to energy work (along the lines of bhakti and pranayama), I think adrenalin dumps at will should to be used judiciously...regardless of the other "magical implications" that energy work is claimed to have an effect on...
The internal organ flow reminds me of the microcosmic orbit and western efforts to ascribe parts of the body to Zodiac signs, etc. I have found some correlations with the ida and the pingala in my own experiments -- and these are largely subjective phenomenon that can be measured with some physiological correlation -- so I look at these particular "channels" (and meridians, etc.) as possible explanations using relative models, while still paying heed to fallibilism. A nice galvanometer or even a cheap EEG (they are getting inexpensive!
) can really help nail down some of these concentration exercises, and even invocation, with some concurrent physiological phenomena.As far as the evocation system, from what I can remember, I've noticed much of Bardon's system to be like the GD as you mentioned -- I think I remember seeing the diagrams of the spirits using the diagram of the Rosy Cross to base the sigils on, etc.
I agree with your statement mostly with the idea that systems are largely a reflection of the magician's view on the world. I also see that there are some correlations across the board when it comes to other people using the same system. I believe this is a sticky combination of self-suggestion, egregores, and/or memes/spirits. It really just matters what model or perspective you wish to draw from, IMHO.
In my own experience, these "markers" or "energies" can have a "two-way" communication with other people (beings, etc.), but how they receive and "see" these energies are largely based on their respective egos reaction to said projected/received "energy." It seems that the further one goes with concentration training, the clearer the pictures get -- astrally, my view may be different than your view in specifics; however, we can still agree on the basic idea -- and even get down to the same feelings and even colors. This can be extrapolated to a certain extent by studying comparative religion and the depictions of certain gods...
What has your experience been that makes you conclude that people tend to have the same "visions?" Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your statement. Also, have you ever worked with Liber 231? In any event, very interesting questions and I look forward to hearing your reply.
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Oh now, don't let me fool you into thinking I'm any kind of expert magician. I was really asking.
Mostly, I'm a natural mystic-type whose had to learn to deal with the more spontaneous creations of his own mind. But, I've had to learn to deal with that enough, and have read enough, and have pondered it all long enough to get a decent glimpse of the potential of it all. Seems like you'd just need a good system to dial-in to a specific aspect of Mind/Being.
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@Legis said
"Oh now, don't let me fool you into thinking I'm any kind of expert magician. I was really asking.
Mostly, I'm a natural mystic-type whose had to learn to deal with the more spontaneous creations of his own mind. But, I've had to learn to deal with that enough, and have read enough, and have pondered it all long enough to get a decent glimpse of the potential of it all. Seems like you'd just need a good system to dial-in to a specific aspect of Mind/Being."
Ahhh! So refreshing! Love it.
Ditto.Now, if you'll excuse me...I'm gonna brush myself with horsehair and go to a gay bar!
Love everything that you see, my friend! 93 93/93
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@Frater 639 said
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Ahhh! So refreshing! Love it.
Ditto.Now, if you'll excuse me...I'm gonna brush myself with horsehair and go to a gay bar!
Love everything that you see, my friend! 93 93/93"
Last time I went to a gay bar there was the most difficult pub quiz I have ever encountered. For example the quiz master had a batch of ten questions for "latin scholars amongst you". No prize just the kudos of winning and the competition was intense.
I have always wondered are there separate gay bars for women and men, not a single woman at that gay bar that had the pub quiz.
sieg heil!
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What differentiates Bardon's stuff and some Thelemic techniques is that in the occult I have found them to be extraordinary.
For example learning to work with the electric and magnetic fluids is an eye opener. The ramifications are not even by analogy identified in other systems (except Thelema). Other stuff has the 4 elements sure, but the occult principles that are directly experienced using these fluids, well you have to go back to Agrippa to get any info let alone practical experience of them.
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@axismundi said
"For example learning to work with the electric and magnetic fluids is an eye opener. The ramifications are not even by analogy identified in other systems (except Thelema). "
Well, I think this is only partially correct -- the Eastern paradigms definitely covered these models. Unless you mean explicit instruction in Western schools using an energy model, early in the 20th century. Of course, Fraternitas Saturni and the IOT cover these principles. I tend to disagree that they weren't "identified by analogy." Even in the earliest western methods the analogy was conveyed very clearly with the symbolism.
But you're right, the more popular Western methods (or perhaps the most researched and analyzed) *seemed to be *more confined to a more spiritual model, if that's what you were implying. Even then, I feel that the energetic aspects were probably more conveyed from master to student and, from a historical POV, all we can see is the spiritual archetypes that surround the methods. That, and the historical perspective stays away from including ideas that aren't accepted by mundane science -- it wants to dismiss all the "kooky superstitions" that other cultures may have believed (including "magical techniques") because science obviously knows everything now...
The GD definitely had training using these "energetic" principles; although, the aim was not widely published or explained. I think Bardon talks about it clearly -- but his method (IMHO) or ideas remind me of someone who read and listened a lot, but never separated his confusion from his results. Or, if he did, he didn't readily convey that...I guess I'm just trying to reiterate the importance of not getting carried away with obsessions that can result when looking at phenomena under a certain lens. His skeptic left a bit to be desired.
He seems to cover much of the work that one encounters as a 1=10 -- or possibly aspects of a 2=9 in the A.'.A.'. system (which I might add that many students find much earlier). So, I agree that his curriculum does cross into the training system of the A.'.A.'., if that's what you mean by thelemic. And yes, magnetic and electric models are definitely covered as early as 0=0 in the A.'.A.'. in certain aspects.