Outdoor offerings
-
@HounganRocky said
"The Lwa are essentially Briatic in Nature, but employ Yetziratic beings to communicate and cause effect in Assiah."
This matches my experience / perception of the Orishas, who appear to be substantially the same type of beings. (In both cases, though, they seem to easily take on Yetziratic trappings - personality characteristics, for example.)
-
"This matches my experience / perception of the Orishas, who appear to be substantially the same type of beings. (In both cases, though, they seem to easily take on Yetziratic trappings - personality characteristics, for example.)"
Yes, Absolutely.
The Yetziratic attributes can be as varied as the individuals working with said beings. There are often agreed upon traits held by each entity, but oftentimes as relationships are established the personalities become more complex and the spirit seems to have a very "human" personality.
The best houngans train these Yetziratic "personalities" in various ways, and eventually they are able to perform great miracles and open doorways to vast knowledge via the Briatic Lwa. Most houngans, however, don't even have the slightest understanding of what they are doing and simply believe that the Lwa are just "like people."
It is useful in practice to treat such beings as people as well as most spirits in general, as it establishes trust and frequency so that the spirit is more willing to work for the magician with little demand.
Rocky
-
@HounganRocky said
"In other words, what appears as superstition on my part, comes from experience in things that you obviously know nothing about.Rocky"
No, no I don't, because the last time I encountered something like that more than a decade ago I told it to F*** off, and I haven't been disturbed by anything like it since.
It's not that I'm completely against the idea of such things, because I encountered plenty of 'spirits' up until my early twenties, and even spent several memorable months obsessed by one such. I've found that fearing them simply gives them more power over my life, and to my mind leaving appeasement offerings simply reinforces that cycle of fear and appeasement.
Hey, maybe it's not my path to work with Allies, or Spirits, or even angels (except Him, but that's another matter).
-
It's not fear. It's respect. Lose your respect for a lion and face the consequences.
-
@HounganRocky said
"It's not fear. It's respect. Lose your respect for a lion and face the consequences."
Well let me put it this way; after I told it where to go it never came back. Of course this could have been something different but I wouldn't know anything about that.
-
"Well let me put it this way; after I told it where to go it never came back. Of course this could have been something different but I wouldn't know anything about that"
Then you may actually not know about the things that I know about. All you know is that a spirit of some unknown order went away when you told it to, which means nothing in the context of the Lwa, Orishas, and offerings made to unknown spirits.
Based on your limited knowledge of such matters you should be slow to judge or gauge the appropriateness of the reaction or the advice given to the OP.
-
@HounganRocky said
"
"Well let me put it this way; after I told it where to go it never came back. Of course this could have been something different but I wouldn't know anything about that"Then you may actually not know about the things that I know about. All you know is that a spirit of some unknown order went away when you told it to, which means nothing in the context of the Lwa, Orishas, and offerings made to unknown spirits.
Based on your limited knowledge of such matters you should be slow to judge or gauge the appropriateness of the reaction or the advice given to the OP."
And how would you go about determining what such a thing might be?
-
Judging from the description of the offering and it's location, I would say that it is most likely an ebbo for an Orisha, possible the Orisha Oshun. Oshun is considered to be a beautiful maiden and is associated with rivers and canals. Most offerings include: sweets, honey, flowers, citrus fruits, and perfume. Now, there is also a Lwa named Erzuli Freda, who receives her offerings in a similar fashion.
Neither of these beings are to be trifled with and both are easily offended if their offerings are disturbed. Furthermore, such wrath of either one of these spirits is far from trivial. Erzulie Freda may cause poverty and disease if offended, and most workers will not attempt to appease her on behalf of a client as she may interpret the placation as an undermining of her will and authority.
That being said, leave things alone if you are unsure. The idea that anything can be dominated because of one's status of being an incarnate human being is silly. Take a look a Roy Horn and "his" tiger Montecore.
-
@HounganRocky said
"Judging from the description of the offering and it's location, I would say that it is most likely an ebbo for an Orisha, possible the Orisha Oshun. Oshun is considered to be a beautiful maiden and is associated with rivers and canals. Most offerings include: sweets, honey, flowers, citrus fruits, and perfume. Now, there is also a Lwa named Erzuli Freda, who receives her offerings in a similar fashion.
Neither of these beings are to be trifled with and both are easily offended if their offerings are disturbed. Furthermore, such wrath of either one of these spirits is far from trivial. Erzulie Freda may cause poverty and disease if offended, and most workers will not attempt to appease her on behalf of a client as she may interpret the placation as an undermining of her will and authority.
That being said, leave things alone if you are unsure. The idea that anything can be dominated because of one's status of being an incarnate human being is silly. Take a look a Roy Horn and "his" tiger Montecore."
So could you classify and Orisha according to something like 777? Would it be a sort of water nymph or more your grendal type monster? And Oshun?
By the way; apologies for my slightly snide tone earlier, we got off on the wrong foot. Obviously I had some sort of reaction to the talk of spirits, probably because my own experiences in that area have been a bit rubbish. I figure it's best to address that reaction by inquiring more sympathetically.
-
I would consider Orishas to be primarily Briatic beings. Oshun would be considered Netzach for example. Yemaya could be Yesod or even placed on the path of Gimel. They are highly complex beings and can be placed throught the tree based upon their "path" or road.
-
@HounganRocky said
"I would consider Orishas to be primarily Briatic beings. Oshun would be considered Netzach for example. Yemaya could be Yesod or even placed on the path of Gimel. They are highly complex beings and can be placed throught the tree based upon their "path" or road."
So can you get an idea of what they might be by there appearance? I've always written them off as Qlippothic shells or 'Dead things' to be honest but it would be interesting to get a detailed account of a few that I encountered.
-
@Archaeus said
"So could you classify and Orisha according to something like 777? Would it be a sort of water nymph or more your grendal type monster? And Oshun? "
There's a table of this in 776 1/2 (Col. 712). I attribute Oshun to Netzach. (However, don't mix her attributes with other beings from the Venus hierarchies. E.g., the amber of Netzach in the King Scale is very close to her favorite yellow, and she's very tuned into copper and the number 7; but she has little room for green, etc.!)
She can be enormously generous and kind, but easily snaps and rends, like a female mountain lion with wounded young nearby, if she feels slighted or her time wasted.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Archaeus said
"So could you classify and Orisha according to something like 777? Would it be a sort of water nymph or more your grendal type monster? And Oshun? "There's a table of this in 776 1/2 (Col. 712). I attribute Oshun to Netzach. (However, don't mix her attributes with other beings from the Venus hierarchies. E.g., the amber of Netzach in the King Scale is very close to her favorite yellow, and she's very tuned into copper and the number 7; but she has little room for green, etc.!)
She can be enormously generous and kind, but easily snaps and rends, like a female mountain lion with wounded young nearby, if she feels slighted or her time wasted."
So it would be safe to say that she has certain Netzachian traits, but unwise to see her as a psuedonym for Venus. In fact I imagine that doing so would probably not be the wisest thing to do.
-
Kinda like being with a woman, who is soaking up every iota of attention and adoration you can stream at her, and telling her repeatedly how much she reminds you of your other girlfriend.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"Kinda like being with a woman, who is soaking up every iota of attention and adoration you can stream at her, and telling her repeatedly how much she reminds you of your other girlfriend."
So in other words you'd end up being served your balls on a plate for supper.
-
Orishas have Yetziratic forms:
Yemaya: Can appear as an African woman robed in the colors of the Ocean and sea foam. She may carry a conch shell in her hand.
Obatala: Often appears as an African old man with a long white beard robed in white, he may have a staff or a sword.
Oshun: A young Mulatto woman dressed in yellow, who has a high pitched laugh.
Oya: A fierce young warrior maiden with black skin, robed in rainbow colors.
Chango: A young king with a gluttonous appetite, wielding a double edge sword.
The list goes on. These beings have been dealt with for thousands of years in a continual fashion in what we call Yoruba land. The Orishas are specific to Yoruba culture and are typically approached with Yoruba prayers and traditional Yoruba offerings.
The Lwa come from the West Coast of Africa, and it's senior spirits were primarily served by the Dahomey and practitioners of the Fon religion.
Some of the Lwa appear as:
Baron Samedi: A tall dark man in a top hat wearing dark sunglasses, often accompanied by similarly dressed men in fedoras (the guede)
Erzulie Freda: A white woman with blonde hair and blue eyes, dressed in pink and pale blues.
Erzulie Dantor: A dark African woman, who has a varied appearance, with blue or red eyes depending upon her mood or season.
Ti Jan: Seen as a little African boy or Dwarf.
Ogou: A family of Spirits that appear as warriors clad in armor or military uniforms from various ages.
Papa Legba: A crippled old man walking with a cane or crutches.
Dambalah: A large white serpent or sometimes striped like the sandworms from the movie Beetlejuice.
The list goes on and on. The Lwa can be Briatic or Yetziratic to explain them for practical purposes. I gave a very narrow list based upon the most popular beings from each tradition.
These beings choose their "horses" or "children" for whom they become the Holy Guardian Angel or the Met Tet (Spirit of the Head). The spirit develops their horse with the necessary powers so that the horse can work with the Spirit properly. Oftentimes, the Met Tet outlines taboos for their initiates to follow to ensure a strong bond and to strengthen the weaknesses of the horse. Having a Lwa for an HGA is a very interesting experience, as the Lwa act like a family and work with each other to accomplish things. It is like being brought into an extension of one's own family that was never known about.
Rocky
-
@Archaeus said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Archaeus said
"So could you classify and Orisha according to something like 777? Would it be a sort of water nymph or more your grendal type monster? And Oshun? "There's a table of this in 776 1/2 (Col. 712). I attribute Oshun to Netzach. (However, don't mix her attributes with other beings from the Venus hierarchies. E.g., the amber of Netzach in the King Scale is very close to her favorite yellow, and she's very tuned into copper and the number 7; but she has little room for green, etc.!)
She can be enormously generous and kind, but easily snaps and rends, like a female mountain lion with wounded young nearby, if she feels slighted or her time wasted."
So it would be safe to say that she has certain Netzachian traits, but unwise to see her as a psuedonym for Venus. In fact I imagine that doing so would probably not be the wisest thing to do.
"Lol You captured it pretty well!
-
Apart from my HGA, whom I've met but not spoken too directly, I've only met three other spirits, all of which were pretty unpleasant.
One was a tall man in a black suit and tie with bulging eyes and pale skin, he was hungry and grasping.
The second was a woman, dead, with eyes rolled back in her head, she made me vomit and blocked my entrance into an underground cathedral, this was a long time ago and I have since entered the cathedral unmolested.
The last (The one I told to **** off) was a black figure, very aggressive and intrusive, but not very powerful as simply swearing at him sent him on his way.
Any of these familiar?
-
They all sound to be something like larval entities, which in Vodou are called "Zonbis." They are generally beings that are starving for some sort of attention. Such entities can be trained into becoming good hard-working servitors when offered a bit of light and libation.
I have several entities frequent my "quadrant" so to speak, seeking such things. I tell the spirit to demonstrate it's usefulness and, if it follow through, begin to work with it and give it what it needs. Be warned, it is like bringing a stray into your home... better to leave it outside so that it doesn't sh** on the carpet.
-
@HounganRocky said
"They all sound to be something like larval entities, which in Vodou are called "Zonbis." They are generally beings that are starving for some sort of attention. Such entities can be trained into becoming good hard-working servitors when offered a bit of light and libation.
I have several entities frequent my "quadrant" so to speak, seeking such things. I tell the spirit to demonstrate it's usefulness and, if it follow through, begin to work with it and give it what it needs. Be warned, it is like bringing a stray into your home... better to leave it outside so that it doesn't sh** on the carpet."
Laval entities: That's pretty much what I had assumed to be honest, and I chose not to invite them in, although I have not seem him I have occasionally had the sense that the tall man was around somewhere although he doesn't come close enough to do more than make the hairs on my back rise up, and even then it's only when I actively think about him.