Last resort magic?
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So, yes... only using magick as a "last resort" seems foolish. However, using magick that isn't aligned with one's True Will just for the sake of "testing things out" or in order to "make things easier" in a general sense seems equally foolish to me.
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"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
If you haven't learned the lesson of using a tool wisely, then you need as much experience as it takes to learn the lesson. If you already have the lesson down, you don't need lessons in using the tool wisely.
Your misuse of your debit card taught you some valuable lessons. :
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@Takamba said
"Then you've missed the entire point of the OP. Why wait until a catastrophe? (I'm only supporting this is his discussion point and you (unsurprisingly) attempt to derail his main discussion platform)."
So then is your suggestion that he should be practicing rituals to Pluto on a regular basis, invoking the powers of Material Gain and reaping their rewards even though he has no need of them just to keep him in practice for that theoretical day when he might be 50p short for that much-needed banana? I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
""Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
If you haven't learned the lesson of using a tool wisely, then you need as much experience as it takes to learn the lesson. If you already have the lesson down, you don't need lessons in using the tool wisely.
Your misuse of your debit card taught you some valuable lessons. :
"These are all good points. They've caused me to go back and read the OP a few times over. This has raised a really big question: How do the questions raised in the OP relate to the story used to introduce it? The questions seem to be focused on this idea of only using magic as a last resort: an emergency tool. As it is written, this is something that he has "read in many places and been told by many so-called magicians that they only use magic to cause change in Assiah as a last resort," but that doesn't seem to be the case in the example or for any of us. The individual in the example did "repeatedly talk to the spirits and work magic to turn the tides in my favor, but every bit of work I did only seemed to hinder me more." The ritual that worked wasn't something that s/he held off on attempting until every mundane possibility had been exhausted. It was just one in a long line of magical attempts to right the ship; it just happened to be the one that worked so no future ones were attempted.
Is there really a conflict here? Or has there just been a conflation of the ideas of "only as a last resort" and "only if it is in line with your True Will"?
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Wow.
Thanks guys for trying your best to keep the thread on topic despite the best efforts of a certain user.
"The OP is about the notion of, "using magick" so I didn't, "miss the entire point of the thread" at all. The only derailment is in the mind of someone who buys into wrong ideas about Thelema and magick. If you want to continue the fantasy without my input then we'd better redefine our whole idea of what Thelema is. You asked me to engage in hypothetical abstraction. I wouldn't, so you had a tantrum. For the sake of civility and intelligence increase; welcome to my ignore list."
Kasper, I can most certainly assure you I have quite a depth of understanding of Thelema, True Will, High Magic, and Low Magic. It's your ever changing definitions of these subjects that I think you need to come to terms with.
You obviously did not understand my topic post on this thread: I had made every attempt to correct my experiences at my previous place of employment. I took every course of action, that includes my work performance, interoffice politics, AND magic. Every attempt was a dead end, this was strange because I had grown the business net revenue by 22% within a year. Yet, due to the constant shift in upper-management I went unnoticed. My magic was not to necessarily get a new job quickly, but also to cover all expenses and have the entire experience of transition expedited so that I could continue focusing on my work.
I performed the proper divinations and determined my best course of action and took it. You see Kasper, I actually DO THINGS. I don't imagine myself becoming a master of the temple, nor do I require anyone to pay attention to my paradigm of belief. I do the Work of Will every day. True will is not some static point, it is a fountain that is constantly outpouring and creating a lust and desire to grow and change. Causing change in Assiah, and in all worlds for that matter, is the Work of Geburah mastering and commanding the powers of action and driving the chariot. All this while it appears that you are doing nothing at all. Without having acquired Knowledge and Conversation nothing I do would be possible... well maybe, but certainly not as effective.
To refer to the Abramelin operation: Why do you think you have the the Lords of Hell submit to you? Because you are now a King, a representative of the Will of God. Oh, but you wouldn't even have the slightest knowledge of that experience because all of what I do is just theory and rhetoric to you. I will tell you what takamba is strongly implying: If anyone here is vocalizing on their lack of understanding of thelema and True Will it is most certainly you, and you are so very proud of your ignorance that you choose to display it for all of us. Thank you for the willful ignorance it is really entertaining.
You are very transparent in your need to "troll" me, and honestly I could care less at this point. Please stop posting on my topics. It's not fun. It's really pitiful and obnoxious.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
@Avshalom Binyamin said
""Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."If you haven't learned the lesson of using a tool wisely, then you need as much experience as it takes to learn the lesson. If you already have the lesson down, you don't need lessons in using the tool wisely.
Your misuse of your debit card taught you some valuable lessons. :
"These are all good points. They've caused me to go back and read the OP a few times over. This has raised a really big question: How do the questions raised in the OP relate to the story used to introduce it? The questions seem to be focused on this idea of only using magic as a last resort: an emergency tool. As it is written, this is something that he has "read in many places and been told by many so-called magicians that they only use magic to cause change in Assiah as a last resort," but that doesn't seem to be the case in the example or for any of us. The individual in the example did "repeatedly talk to the spirits and work magic to turn the tides in my favor, but every bit of work I did only seemed to hinder me more." The ritual that worked wasn't something that s/he held off on attempting until every mundane possibility had been exhausted. It was just one in a long line of magical attempts to right the ship; it just happened to be the one that worked so no future ones were attempted.
Is there really a conflict here? Or has there just been a conflation of the ideas of "only as a last resort" and "only if it is in line with your True Will"?"
If you read my original post, I said that I took every possible course of action. If everything fails, even when you are doing everything "right," what are you left to assume?
I look back at the career path I was so rigidly stuck on was actually a huge distraction from my magical work. I became focused on the interests of a corporation rather than my own. That is not to say that I was being prevented from the work I do, it simply means that I was not able to work at my fullest potential.
You may not be aware of the fact that I am an initiated Voodoo Priest and I have clients needs that I tend to as well as my own. The former position I was in allowed for me to communicate with my clients very easily, but used up much of my precious energy that I need to deal with their spiritual needs.
Why did I no longer continue corrective action once I made up my mind to leave the position? Well, I think the question answers itself. I'm not going to water someone's garden if they don't want me to be their gardener.
The point of the story was not that I was in a last resort situation, but due to the fact that I had been so practiced I accomplished something quite easily without creating any extra distractions for myself. For some, they may well feel as if using magic to get out of an extremely stressful situation as a last resort. For me it was simply a realization that the boat I was on was going nowhere. So, I had my communications officer send a very noticeable signal to the most suitable nearby vessel, reached an arrangement with it's captain, and promptly jumped ship. Turns out, the new captain offered me better lodgings and pay to stay on his boat, as well as better things to do with my recreational time.
By the definition of True Will, being in alignment with the Universe blah, blah, blah, I would say that I demonstrate it's performance in my magic.
Can anyone say that they acquired a high paying position (high paying being between $1000-$2000 weekly) within 24 hours of submitting their resume? If so, I 'd like to read your resume.
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@HounganRocky said
"If you read my original post, I said that I took every possible course of action. If everything fails, even when you are doing everything "right," what are you left to assume?"
As I said, I went back and read over it several times. You did not say you took every course of action. To do so would require all of Nuit. You tried a bunch of things and none of them worked. Then you had the idea to do an uncrossing ceremony and that worked. Devising a perfect crime to murder your boss without a trace in order to leave a position open for yourself might have worked as well. Now we'll never know.
@HounganRocky said
"I look back at the career path I was so rigidly stuck on was actually a huge distraction from my magical work. I became focused on the interests of a corporation rather than my own. That is not to say that I was being prevented from the work I do, it simply means that I was not able to work at my fullest potential."
None of this was in the OP nor does it really affect the question of "last resort magic".
@HounganRocky said
"You may not be aware of the fact that I am an initiated Voodoo Priest and I have clients needs that I tend to as well as my own. The former position I was in allowed for me to communicate with my clients very easily, but used up much of my precious energy that I need to deal with their spiritual needs."
I am, actually, but it still doesn't affect the question of "last resort magic".
@HounganRocky said
"Why did I no longer continue corrective action once I made up my mind to leave the position? Well, I think the question answers itself. I'm not going to water someone's garden if they don't want me to be their gardener."
Obviously. Standard human nature.
@HounganRocky said
"The point of the story was not that I was in a last resort situation, but due to the fact that I had been so practiced I accomplished something quite easily without creating any extra distractions for myself. For some, they may well feel as if using magic to get out of an extremely stressful situation as a last resort. For me it was simply a realization that the boat I was on was going nowhere. So, I had my communications officer send a very noticeable signal to the most suitable nearby vessel, reached an arrangement with it's captain, and promptly jumped ship. Turns out, the new captain offered me better lodgings and pay to stay on his boat, as well as better things to do with my recreational time."
Well, that begs the question: Why were your previous uses of magic and talking with the spirits not effective? Is it possibly because, even though you are so practiced that you can accomplish things quite easily, this time your powers were hampered by the incorrect belief that you could improve the situation from within? That it wasn't until you began to feel truly trapped (last resort) that you had the idea to do your uncrossing ceremony to remove those incorrect beliefs? Once you successfully gave up the notion that you could solve your problem while staying with your same employer (whether you did this on your own or whether it was a result of the ceremony, I don't know), you were free and empowered to travel down your correct path which was to find new employment?
@HounganRocky said
"Can anyone say that they acquired a high paying position (high paying being between $1000-$2000 weekly) within 24 hours of submitting their resume? If so, I 'd like to read your resume."
I can, but I'm in a different industry than you, one that hires the guy who comes with a personal recommendation and is available to start yesterday, not necessarily the one whose resume is better than the 200 others that were submitted.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Takamba said
"Then you've missed the entire point of the OP. Why wait until a catastrophe? (I'm only supporting this is his discussion point and you (unsurprisingly) attempt to derail his main discussion platform)."So then is your suggestion that he should be practicing rituals to Pluto on a regular basis, invoking the powers of Material Gain and reaping their rewards even though he has no need of them just to keep him in practice for that theoretical day when he might be 50p short for that much-needed banana? I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need."
I'm supporting staying on topic. Notice I have said nothing of validity of the OP's idea (as he requested this not be a place of argument, dissention, skepticism concerning the purpose/value of magick) but the sharing on the specific topic.
If I were to add my two cents on the original content and idea, it would be that the daily rituals practicing what is called "magical hygiene" (the LBRP, Middle Pillar, so forth) suffice. If a vodun wants to recommend daily magick "spells," that's fine. I'm suggesting he can do so and doesn't need master-baiters ramming their junk down his throat if he requests that that doesn't happen.
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" I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need"
Wow. That thought would have never ever crossed my mind.
I am so thankful that my "powers that be" are not the types that would not "show up" when the need was great.
I am almost speechless at that comment.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Yep, it's deliberately off topic.
I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
I like to turn on pandora, ( which is programed with about fifty channels of all genres) and ask my question as I use the shuffle option. Always unto Nuit, from my heart.
Never fails. I always listen.
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@Angel of Death said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Yep, it's deliberately off topic.I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
I like to turn on pandora, ( which is programed with about fifty channels of all genres) and ask my question as I use the shuffle option. Always unto Nuit, from my heart.
Never fails. I always listen."
Radiomancy.
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@Legis said
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@Angel of Death said
"
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Yep, it's deliberately off topic.I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
I like to turn on pandora, ( which is programed with about fifty channels of all genres) and ask my question as I use the shuffle option. Always unto Nuit, from my heart.
Never fails. I always listen."
Radiomancy.
"Evolution.
Never static
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Until cars got computer chips, I actualy could fix my own car. Both my older brothers were gear heads and taught me.
Rocky,
I appreciate you attempting to stimulate genuine conversation, and share you knowledge.
I'll share an aspect of a deeply personal experience, that I did use all resources to my ability, mundane and magical.As a forward to those whose true will does not encapsulate rituals, higher intelligence and magick, I will simply state this. I live in a very very big world and have tolerance for just about anything. If what I share causes an intellectual rebuttal, and my methods seem unreasonable please do not disrespect me by belittling me. You are entitled to your own personal intrepration of your own life experiences and so am I.
My experience, to sum it up was that I was in a hostile domestic situation, rapidly deteriorating, and escalating to maddness of the most vicious and violent sorts. I had exhausted most all means of mundanely dealing with the situation. I actually feared for my life and my childrens lives. It was at this time, my last resort in a way, that I asked this forum the simple question of what is the most effective ritual for protection.
I received a lot of great support and encouragement, and I got a ritual for Angelic protection. This wasn't a flash in the pan rite though. I reworked it to my own liking and very very quickly got great results.
I was dealing with a man who invited demonic forces into himself and was enjoying it. It was as if heaven and hell were fighting in my own home. This man became what I will stereotype as a feminine hating, racist, redneck, abusive, addicted hardcore metal Satanist, the biggest baddest thing he could think of becoming he did. Which pair up with little miss love n light rainbow glitter me......isn't a good mix.
I mentioned previously here about how I got lost in the inner city, and came upon a gothic cathedral to St. Michael. Since leaving that church, and the ephifany I had there, week by week different men by the name Michael have come to my aid, out of the blue unbidden, they show up and have gifts for me and strengthen me with our relationship. Two months ago, I was contacted by the seventh Michael. This man was a childhood friend, but he was also much much more. When these Men show up, I play it very cool and just see what's up with them with out divulging to much of my true situation.
Each one of these men are what we could call adepts in their own fields. Extremely successful powerful men. Not garbage men, but multimillion dollar business men, Priests, Master Technicians, or other professionals. This last Michael was really appropriate to my domestic violence situation in that not only was he a professional boxer, and a law enforcement officer but a highly decorated Marine, as well as an Army Special Forces. The good guys had arrived to ~not~ take care of my business, but to let me know they were standing behind me in case I truly did need the back up to take care of my own business.
I asked for an army of angels, and I got one and now I can mundanely take care of detangling myself from my situation and getting on with my life. Magick is not making others do things for you, magick is empowering yourself so you can do what ever you need to do to get it done.
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@Angel of Death said
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" I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need"Wow. That thought would have never ever crossed my mind.
I am so thankful that my "powers that be" are not the types that would not "show up" when the need was great.
I am almost speechless at that comment."
Do you practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"? If not, then there would be no reason for this thought to cross your mind unless you chose to ponder things outside your experience. You are likely engaging with your "powers that be" with honesty and integrity and they will likely always be there for you in your hour of need.
However, if you do practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"... well, that would cause me to at least consider that I might be heading down the left-hand path (as it was originally defined) and might wake up one day deserted and alone. If that thought has truly never crossed your mind to the point that you are left almost speechless... well, I find myself in the same boat as you did: Wow.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Angel of Death said
"
"
Do you practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"? If not, then there would be no reason for this thought to cross your mind unless you chose to ponder things outside your experience. You are likely engaging with your "powers that be" with honesty and integrity and they will likely always be there for you in your hour of need.However, if you do practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"... well, that would cause me to at least consider that I might be heading down the left-hand path (as it was originally defined) and might wake up one day deserted and alone. If that thought has truly never crossed your mind to the point that you are left almost speechless... well, I find myself in the same boat as you did: Wow."
"
"I do ponder over lots of things.
Like the words unnecessary and unneeded.
In Nuit is everything, even things we would label as unnecessary and unneeded.
In Nuit we are never alone, deserted.
Those things, unnecessary, unneeded, alone, deserted are illusions. -
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me. "
It ain't about "unnecessary" or "unneeded".
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@Angel of Death said
"In Nuit is everything, even things we would label as unnecessary and unneeded."
Agreed. That does not mean that there are not things within Nuit that are unnecessary or unneeded for the life path of your particular Hadit. Or mine. A fish and a bicycle both exist within Nuit. A fish who tries to ride a bicycle will quickly find that she is having a distinct difficulty in breathing.
@Angel of Death said
"In Nuit we are never alone, deserted. "
I'd be curious to see if you have the same conviction as you cross the Abyss.
@Angel of Death said
"Those things, unnecessary, unneeded, alone, deserted are illusions."
Below the Abyss, certainly. Perhaps even above (I don't claim those grades or that knowledge). However, as I understand it, it is exactly this part of you that the Abyss tests. Given the certainty with which you speak, I might be led to believe that you're speaking from Binah and I should just take you at your word. However, the vibrant personality you display in your writing suggests that this probably isn't yet the case.
Av Bin's quote from Liber Al is right on the money. It contains the operative word, though: Will. Anything outside of Will is unnecessary/unneeded. As has been said countless times: "Do what thou wilt" does not mean "Do any old thing you damn well please."
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Oh, more flattery.
How nice of you to be curious about me getting ripped to shreads in the abyss. Really, now don't bother your brain wondering about what is going on in my world and how strong my convictions are, I'm a distraction from your GreatWork, Brother.And as always,
Don't take my word on it,
Or anything else.
You have to find your own answers.Your subtle way of speaking with a forked tounge leaves me wanting more. My direct, forceful tounge lashing leave no one guessing what my intention is. I couldn't care less what station you think I have or have not achieved, it has no relevance in my life, and IMO your response to me is ot. I'm just trying to contribute to Rockys topic.
Your comment about a fish and a bike is absurd and doesn't even make methophoical sence. A fish would never desire to ride a bike. All things in my life, even things some would say are unnecessary or unneeded are aspects of Nuit, so if my limited perception thought a million dollars was necessary, then it is necessary to me at that instant. My desires and my ability to fulfill those desires are what drives my actions. Yet my desires are often fueled by my limited mental ability, governed by my endocrine system.
My son used to say, mom, I want some money.
I would say, what do want the money for?
A game he replied.
Then, you focus on getting the game, not the money.It's ok with me that you see the world differently then me, just don't expect me to lay down and take your subtle slips of the tounge. I'm not that type of girl.
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@Angel of Death said
"Oh, more flattery.
How nice of you to be curious about me getting ripped to shreads in the abyss. Really, now don't bother your brain wondering about what is going on in my world and how strong my convictions are, I'm a distraction from your GreatWork, Brother."I'm endlessly amazed at how you take everything written on these forum posts to be specifically about and exclusively in relation to you. I could care less if you personally get ripped to shreds crossing the abyss. I'm curious if those concrete views would survive the battering, in you or anyone else with such strong convictions. A thought experiment. Nothing more.
@Angel of Death said
"And as always,
Don't take my word on it,
Or anything else.
You have to find your own answers."Obviously. But this is a discussion forum. Where we discuss ideas and, through that process, if we're lucky, we might find some of our own answers.
@Angel of Death said
"Your subtle way of speaking with a forked tounge leaves me wanting more. My direct, forceful tounge lashing leave no one guessing what my intention is. I couldn't care less what station you think I have or have not achieved, it has no relevance in my life, and IMO your response to me is ot. I'm just trying to contribute to Rockys topic."
Rocky's topic was regarding the use of magic regularly, as a matter of course, rather than just as a last resort. My comment that brought on this back-and-forth was questioning the idea of regularly doing financial-gain rituals, without need, just to keep one in practice for that day when money is actually needed. Takamba's reply introduced the idea of "magickal hygene" rituals rather than actual focused rituals as a regular practice which seemed perfectly sensible and definitely on-topic to me. You hijacked that thought with your "thought had never crossed my mind"/"almost speechless" sideways insult of my own relation with the powers-that-be and focused the entire discussion on you and your superior relation with your own personal powers-that-be. If you're interested in keeping things OT, start with your own house. (Is that a direct enough tongue for you?)
@Angel of Death said
"Your comment about a fish and a bike is absurd and doesn't even make methophoical sence. A fish would never desire to ride a bike. All things in my life, even things some would say are unnecessary or unneeded are aspects of Nuit, so if my limited perception thought a million dollars was necessary, then it is necessary to me at that instant. My desires and my ability to fulfill those desires are what drives my actions. Yet my desires are often fueled by my limited mental ability, governed by my endocrine system. "
I guess the Parable of the Ibis, the Humming-Bird, and Uraeus Serpent just goes right over your head as well because a humming-bird would never desire to drip poison from its fangs?
@Angel of Death said
"It's ok with me that you see the world differently then me, just don't expect me to lay down and take your subtle slips of the tounge. I'm not that type of girl."
Then don't take everything I say on every forum post whether in response to something you wrote or otherwise as a personal attack against you. It's not. The subtle slips of the tongue on this one were started by you in response to something I wrote to Takamba. If you can't take it, don't deal it.
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You specifically said that
I'd be curious to see if you have the same convictions as you cross the abyss.That is pretty personal. If you were having a thought excesize in ambiguity on humans in general, then you might do well to change your wording so that the person you are responding to does not think you are specifically referring to her.
It was from that initial challenge, which set the tone of your post being an attack, or rather, not supporting me but attempting to undermine me.
Also everyone of my posts has related directly to the topic, except for this one, and the one I spouted back at your personal attack of me, which was off topic completely.
I also think, regarding Av's post that the most important part is " always unto me". But if you think it's your will then that's your POV.
"You hijacked that thought with your "thought had never crossed my mind"/"almost speechless" sideways insult of my own relation with the powers-that-be and focused the entire discussion on you and your superior relation with your own personal powers-that-be."
I did not intend my comment to be an insult. Truly. That type of think is alien to me, it never would have crossed my mind on it's own. But, when you said it, with your. Personal conviction, Meaning that you do believe that......I was amazed. I can't even begin to fathom what existence could be like holding on to that belief. I am always amazed when I grok anothers point of view, or realize that most people don't think at all like I do. I shared my surprise publicly because I do believe that the concept of a higher power that is cruel, is old aeon patriarchal bondage that needs to be personally evaluated by each person who still grasps that chain. That's my opinion.
I also would like to say that in your opinion I attempted to "focused the entire discussion on you and your superior relation with your own personal powers-that-be."
I did no such thing, I wrote two post directly in response to Rockys topic. I shared my first post, and then when things were getting derailed I attempted to bring it back to topic by sharing a second on topic post. I did not insinuate anything about my relationship with my universe and frankly I think that sentence of yours is revealing more about your attitudes then my experience. I shared my personal experiences and left the intrepation to others to draw conclusions from.
Listen, I am in the midst of turmoil in my life right now, lots of people in my circle in ICU, my moms house is flooded, I have a psycho stalker, DSS is preventing me from getting real work, my dog was hit by a car, ect ect ect.....I am literally stressed to the max. That does not excuse me from anything, but I am human and when you start a post to me about me getting ripped to shreads,......
Well I'm going to get defensive because the world around me is like a game of dodge ball. I'm in the game, and you are either trying to knock me out or helping me stay in the game. The gentlemen on this board whom I've had the pleasure of chatting with for five years now are kind enough to not knock me out when I might say something stupid or unkind, which I'm sure I have, as all humans do.I don't want to fight you, But I guess you could say I'm a wild child, I will not lay down and. Be quiet and take any sort of negative bs. Ever. I will fight, and scream, and raise holy hell if anyone ever tries to hurt me, and your very first sentence definately set the tone for you wanting to hurt me, personally, as well as your insulting remark about my personality and Binha.
I truly don't want to engage with you, Brother, at all about this. I certainly don't want the boards permeant posts littered with stupid crap, I wanted to talk about the topic and try to generate conversation about that.