Last resort magic?
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Yep, it's deliberately off topic.
I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
I like to turn on pandora, ( which is programed with about fifty channels of all genres) and ask my question as I use the shuffle option. Always unto Nuit, from my heart.
Never fails. I always listen.
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@Angel of Death said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Yep, it's deliberately off topic.I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
I like to turn on pandora, ( which is programed with about fifty channels of all genres) and ask my question as I use the shuffle option. Always unto Nuit, from my heart.
Never fails. I always listen."
Radiomancy.
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@Legis said
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@Angel of Death said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Yep, it's deliberately off topic.I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
I like to turn on pandora, ( which is programed with about fifty channels of all genres) and ask my question as I use the shuffle option. Always unto Nuit, from my heart.
Never fails. I always listen."
Radiomancy.
"Evolution.
Never static
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Until cars got computer chips, I actualy could fix my own car. Both my older brothers were gear heads and taught me.
Rocky,
I appreciate you attempting to stimulate genuine conversation, and share you knowledge.
I'll share an aspect of a deeply personal experience, that I did use all resources to my ability, mundane and magical.As a forward to those whose true will does not encapsulate rituals, higher intelligence and magick, I will simply state this. I live in a very very big world and have tolerance for just about anything. If what I share causes an intellectual rebuttal, and my methods seem unreasonable please do not disrespect me by belittling me. You are entitled to your own personal intrepration of your own life experiences and so am I.
My experience, to sum it up was that I was in a hostile domestic situation, rapidly deteriorating, and escalating to maddness of the most vicious and violent sorts. I had exhausted most all means of mundanely dealing with the situation. I actually feared for my life and my childrens lives. It was at this time, my last resort in a way, that I asked this forum the simple question of what is the most effective ritual for protection.
I received a lot of great support and encouragement, and I got a ritual for Angelic protection. This wasn't a flash in the pan rite though. I reworked it to my own liking and very very quickly got great results.
I was dealing with a man who invited demonic forces into himself and was enjoying it. It was as if heaven and hell were fighting in my own home. This man became what I will stereotype as a feminine hating, racist, redneck, abusive, addicted hardcore metal Satanist, the biggest baddest thing he could think of becoming he did. Which pair up with little miss love n light rainbow glitter me......isn't a good mix.
I mentioned previously here about how I got lost in the inner city, and came upon a gothic cathedral to St. Michael. Since leaving that church, and the ephifany I had there, week by week different men by the name Michael have come to my aid, out of the blue unbidden, they show up and have gifts for me and strengthen me with our relationship. Two months ago, I was contacted by the seventh Michael. This man was a childhood friend, but he was also much much more. When these Men show up, I play it very cool and just see what's up with them with out divulging to much of my true situation.
Each one of these men are what we could call adepts in their own fields. Extremely successful powerful men. Not garbage men, but multimillion dollar business men, Priests, Master Technicians, or other professionals. This last Michael was really appropriate to my domestic violence situation in that not only was he a professional boxer, and a law enforcement officer but a highly decorated Marine, as well as an Army Special Forces. The good guys had arrived to ~not~ take care of my business, but to let me know they were standing behind me in case I truly did need the back up to take care of my own business.
I asked for an army of angels, and I got one and now I can mundanely take care of detangling myself from my situation and getting on with my life. Magick is not making others do things for you, magick is empowering yourself so you can do what ever you need to do to get it done.
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@Angel of Death said
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" I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need"Wow. That thought would have never ever crossed my mind.
I am so thankful that my "powers that be" are not the types that would not "show up" when the need was great.
I am almost speechless at that comment."
Do you practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"? If not, then there would be no reason for this thought to cross your mind unless you chose to ponder things outside your experience. You are likely engaging with your "powers that be" with honesty and integrity and they will likely always be there for you in your hour of need.
However, if you do practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"... well, that would cause me to at least consider that I might be heading down the left-hand path (as it was originally defined) and might wake up one day deserted and alone. If that thought has truly never crossed your mind to the point that you are left almost speechless... well, I find myself in the same boat as you did: Wow.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Angel of Death said
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Do you practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"? If not, then there would be no reason for this thought to cross your mind unless you chose to ponder things outside your experience. You are likely engaging with your "powers that be" with honesty and integrity and they will likely always be there for you in your hour of need.However, if you do practice "unnecessary" rituals for "unneeded financial gain"... well, that would cause me to at least consider that I might be heading down the left-hand path (as it was originally defined) and might wake up one day deserted and alone. If that thought has truly never crossed your mind to the point that you are left almost speechless... well, I find myself in the same boat as you did: Wow."
"
"I do ponder over lots of things.
Like the words unnecessary and unneeded.
In Nuit is everything, even things we would label as unnecessary and unneeded.
In Nuit we are never alone, deserted.
Those things, unnecessary, unneeded, alone, deserted are illusions. -
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me. "
It ain't about "unnecessary" or "unneeded".
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@Angel of Death said
"In Nuit is everything, even things we would label as unnecessary and unneeded."
Agreed. That does not mean that there are not things within Nuit that are unnecessary or unneeded for the life path of your particular Hadit. Or mine. A fish and a bicycle both exist within Nuit. A fish who tries to ride a bicycle will quickly find that she is having a distinct difficulty in breathing.
@Angel of Death said
"In Nuit we are never alone, deserted. "
I'd be curious to see if you have the same conviction as you cross the Abyss.
@Angel of Death said
"Those things, unnecessary, unneeded, alone, deserted are illusions."
Below the Abyss, certainly. Perhaps even above (I don't claim those grades or that knowledge). However, as I understand it, it is exactly this part of you that the Abyss tests. Given the certainty with which you speak, I might be led to believe that you're speaking from Binah and I should just take you at your word. However, the vibrant personality you display in your writing suggests that this probably isn't yet the case.
Av Bin's quote from Liber Al is right on the money. It contains the operative word, though: Will. Anything outside of Will is unnecessary/unneeded. As has been said countless times: "Do what thou wilt" does not mean "Do any old thing you damn well please."
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Oh, more flattery.
How nice of you to be curious about me getting ripped to shreads in the abyss. Really, now don't bother your brain wondering about what is going on in my world and how strong my convictions are, I'm a distraction from your GreatWork, Brother.And as always,
Don't take my word on it,
Or anything else.
You have to find your own answers.Your subtle way of speaking with a forked tounge leaves me wanting more. My direct, forceful tounge lashing leave no one guessing what my intention is. I couldn't care less what station you think I have or have not achieved, it has no relevance in my life, and IMO your response to me is ot. I'm just trying to contribute to Rockys topic.
Your comment about a fish and a bike is absurd and doesn't even make methophoical sence. A fish would never desire to ride a bike. All things in my life, even things some would say are unnecessary or unneeded are aspects of Nuit, so if my limited perception thought a million dollars was necessary, then it is necessary to me at that instant. My desires and my ability to fulfill those desires are what drives my actions. Yet my desires are often fueled by my limited mental ability, governed by my endocrine system.
My son used to say, mom, I want some money.
I would say, what do want the money for?
A game he replied.
Then, you focus on getting the game, not the money.It's ok with me that you see the world differently then me, just don't expect me to lay down and take your subtle slips of the tounge. I'm not that type of girl.
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@Angel of Death said
"Oh, more flattery.
How nice of you to be curious about me getting ripped to shreads in the abyss. Really, now don't bother your brain wondering about what is going on in my world and how strong my convictions are, I'm a distraction from your GreatWork, Brother."I'm endlessly amazed at how you take everything written on these forum posts to be specifically about and exclusively in relation to you. I could care less if you personally get ripped to shreds crossing the abyss. I'm curious if those concrete views would survive the battering, in you or anyone else with such strong convictions. A thought experiment. Nothing more.
@Angel of Death said
"And as always,
Don't take my word on it,
Or anything else.
You have to find your own answers."Obviously. But this is a discussion forum. Where we discuss ideas and, through that process, if we're lucky, we might find some of our own answers.
@Angel of Death said
"Your subtle way of speaking with a forked tounge leaves me wanting more. My direct, forceful tounge lashing leave no one guessing what my intention is. I couldn't care less what station you think I have or have not achieved, it has no relevance in my life, and IMO your response to me is ot. I'm just trying to contribute to Rockys topic."
Rocky's topic was regarding the use of magic regularly, as a matter of course, rather than just as a last resort. My comment that brought on this back-and-forth was questioning the idea of regularly doing financial-gain rituals, without need, just to keep one in practice for that day when money is actually needed. Takamba's reply introduced the idea of "magickal hygene" rituals rather than actual focused rituals as a regular practice which seemed perfectly sensible and definitely on-topic to me. You hijacked that thought with your "thought had never crossed my mind"/"almost speechless" sideways insult of my own relation with the powers-that-be and focused the entire discussion on you and your superior relation with your own personal powers-that-be. If you're interested in keeping things OT, start with your own house. (Is that a direct enough tongue for you?)
@Angel of Death said
"Your comment about a fish and a bike is absurd and doesn't even make methophoical sence. A fish would never desire to ride a bike. All things in my life, even things some would say are unnecessary or unneeded are aspects of Nuit, so if my limited perception thought a million dollars was necessary, then it is necessary to me at that instant. My desires and my ability to fulfill those desires are what drives my actions. Yet my desires are often fueled by my limited mental ability, governed by my endocrine system. "
I guess the Parable of the Ibis, the Humming-Bird, and Uraeus Serpent just goes right over your head as well because a humming-bird would never desire to drip poison from its fangs?
@Angel of Death said
"It's ok with me that you see the world differently then me, just don't expect me to lay down and take your subtle slips of the tounge. I'm not that type of girl."
Then don't take everything I say on every forum post whether in response to something you wrote or otherwise as a personal attack against you. It's not. The subtle slips of the tongue on this one were started by you in response to something I wrote to Takamba. If you can't take it, don't deal it.
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You specifically said that
I'd be curious to see if you have the same convictions as you cross the abyss.That is pretty personal. If you were having a thought excesize in ambiguity on humans in general, then you might do well to change your wording so that the person you are responding to does not think you are specifically referring to her.
It was from that initial challenge, which set the tone of your post being an attack, or rather, not supporting me but attempting to undermine me.
Also everyone of my posts has related directly to the topic, except for this one, and the one I spouted back at your personal attack of me, which was off topic completely.
I also think, regarding Av's post that the most important part is " always unto me". But if you think it's your will then that's your POV.
"You hijacked that thought with your "thought had never crossed my mind"/"almost speechless" sideways insult of my own relation with the powers-that-be and focused the entire discussion on you and your superior relation with your own personal powers-that-be."
I did not intend my comment to be an insult. Truly. That type of think is alien to me, it never would have crossed my mind on it's own. But, when you said it, with your. Personal conviction, Meaning that you do believe that......I was amazed. I can't even begin to fathom what existence could be like holding on to that belief. I am always amazed when I grok anothers point of view, or realize that most people don't think at all like I do. I shared my surprise publicly because I do believe that the concept of a higher power that is cruel, is old aeon patriarchal bondage that needs to be personally evaluated by each person who still grasps that chain. That's my opinion.
I also would like to say that in your opinion I attempted to "focused the entire discussion on you and your superior relation with your own personal powers-that-be."
I did no such thing, I wrote two post directly in response to Rockys topic. I shared my first post, and then when things were getting derailed I attempted to bring it back to topic by sharing a second on topic post. I did not insinuate anything about my relationship with my universe and frankly I think that sentence of yours is revealing more about your attitudes then my experience. I shared my personal experiences and left the intrepation to others to draw conclusions from.
Listen, I am in the midst of turmoil in my life right now, lots of people in my circle in ICU, my moms house is flooded, I have a psycho stalker, DSS is preventing me from getting real work, my dog was hit by a car, ect ect ect.....I am literally stressed to the max. That does not excuse me from anything, but I am human and when you start a post to me about me getting ripped to shreads,......
Well I'm going to get defensive because the world around me is like a game of dodge ball. I'm in the game, and you are either trying to knock me out or helping me stay in the game. The gentlemen on this board whom I've had the pleasure of chatting with for five years now are kind enough to not knock me out when I might say something stupid or unkind, which I'm sure I have, as all humans do.I don't want to fight you, But I guess you could say I'm a wild child, I will not lay down and. Be quiet and take any sort of negative bs. Ever. I will fight, and scream, and raise holy hell if anyone ever tries to hurt me, and your very first sentence definately set the tone for you wanting to hurt me, personally, as well as your insulting remark about my personality and Binha.
I truly don't want to engage with you, Brother, at all about this. I certainly don't want the boards permeant posts littered with stupid crap, I wanted to talk about the topic and try to generate conversation about that.
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Rocky,
Honestly, I've never heard the "last resort" idea. I've heard a lot about making sure you really want what you ask for and making sure it lines up with your True Will, but not the "last resort" bit. Just knowing me, that's something I'd have to learn the hard way anyway.
You're not exactly a newbie, and that sounds more like newbie advice. You know, trying to obtain something through magical means can really jack with your head if something more central to yourself (True Will) is unconsciously running counter to it. It can be like asking for a "lesson" instead.
From a theory standpoint, it kind of makes sense to me that trying practical means first would be beneficial. It helps clarify the problem, clarify the actual blocks, clarify the actual desire, and impress upon your magical unconscious (spirit, whatever...) through concrete action that something is your serious intent - through the practical application of ALL of one's powers.
But only as a "last resort"? Ehhh... That seems like a form of extreme caution to me too. Truth is... I do tend to be extremely cautious because I've done a lot of stuff in the past that jacked with my head. But I don't think I'd warn people of such things specifically with the "last resort" advice.
I'd tell the joke where the guy wished to be "surrounded by *****," and the genie turned him into a tampon.
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@Angel of Death said
"I truly don't want to engage with you, Brother, at all about this. I certainly don't want the boards permeant posts littered with stupid crap, I wanted to talk about the topic and try to generate conversation about that."
Copy that.
Over and out. -
@Legis said
"I'd tell the joke where the guy wished to be "surrounded by *****," and the genie turned him into a tampon."
Reminds me:
Q. What did one tampon say to the other tampon?
A. Nothing...they're both stuck up bitches.
This is a very interesting topic. First of all, the topic doesn't seem to pay heed to confirmation bias. I'll fire off a few POVs that I think every magician has spent time with, when they consider "results" magick:
1.) The "results" have superseded the normal odds of something taking place. This could be considered more "miraculous" or more "coincidental," depending on the POV one wishes to take.
The magician is the Lord of Illusion. The strongest magician is the one that can see both POVs simultaneously (i.e. Silence).
2.) The "results" magick idea presupposes that there is "outside" and "inside" phenomena. Again, this sets up the dyad. The "2" in 2=0. But, of course, the separateness is actually just another form of Nuit. Or the Magician is just a different form or attitude of the Fool and vice versa. The Point (Hadit) is only the bird's eye view of (and separated from) the Wave (Nuit).
*In the sphere I am everywhere the centre, as she, the circumference, is nowhere found.
Yet she shall be known and I never. *
-- Hadit
and:
*With the God and the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit. *
-- Nuit
This can be further explained with the overall symbology and relations of 0 and 1.
In practical terms, the magician learns economy of energy. This extends to all "actions" in all planes. The True Will is theoretically effortless, as it is the natural orbit for any one Star. One POV would be that the practice of magick is used to remove "obstacles" in the way of this Path. However, the opposite is true as well, is there anything that is truly an obstacle, if it is in the Path?
Yes and no. Depending on the POV.
The magician can see both and realize both are untrue, when they are isolated into the false dyad. All that is left is Will.
3.) The True Will in Assiah is very relatable to the Inverted Palace:
*41.He leads us into the Inverted Palace.
42.There is the Heart of Blood, a pyramid reaching its apex down beyond the Wrong of the Beginning. *This Palace can be considered as starting in the Infinity of Atziluth and ending at the "point of action" in Assiah.
4.) As far as magick not being used in Assiah is laughable. We sneeze and it's magick. Are we talking about works in the Astral? Back to confirmation bias, and the magician uses models that can never wholly discount skepticism. And thank god for that! Imagine if everything in the imagination materialized without effort!
Again, the magician is the Lord of Illusion. As equally as he can control his belief that he worked something onto the material plane in the astral, he should be able to employ disbelief in that particular POV. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The confirmation bias and "truth" of that individual is only their Self and Its relation with the Other; that is, if they choose to see the separation. But, we're all here, aren't we? I guess we did choose the separation, no?
Now, results in Assiah? Yes. I've used ceremonial magic to gain wealth and success against tremendous odds (a high paying income according to standards here, although, is it ever enough?
). I've used magick (using methods in the astral) to get hella girls -- I've slept with beautiful girls half my age (I assure you they just turned 18 ).And I loved it. The moth is always attracted to the flame, and everything is lawful.
In any event, the odds that were surpassed still baffle me, but I can still tear the results apart with skepticism. Beware the belief of any bullshit, as anyone halfway trained in magick can make a truth out of a turd. The Qabalah can always be stretched. Value in regard to the True Will is the only useful gain. And even that is subject to the POV! I will say that for me, momentum has replaced effort, and Adjustment of the inside happens just as quick as Adjustment of the outside:
If I don't "like" it, I change my "like" on the inside -- or, if it's easier to change the surroundings (the outside), I do that...this flow and momentum to me is synonymous with the True Will. If that is securing a new job with magical voracity or calming my desires down to live within my means, they are up the unique Will, and the one who can "listen and act" in accordance with their "orbit" has the least discomfort.
Also, looking up to the heavens is just as useful as looking into the depths of hell. They all lead to the same place eventually.
As far as "saving" magick for spiritual reasons, Do what thou wilt. However, the real momentum and magick is already in line with your True Will, is it not? Anything else is a false morality and absolute restriction. There is never a hard and fast rule regarding right, wrong, proper ways, improper ways, etc. These are all ridiculous when not considered in context and are intrinsically linked to POVs...
Control the POV and you control the reality. It's that simple. Same goes for the individual AND the collective. Just look at the media...
One more thing, one would hope that one sets their reality up to be beautiful and harmonious, whatever that means to that particular person. You can spin around all day long effecting one magick trick after another, or you can be completely Silent, allowing the world to spin around you without using any effort; however, at the end of your turn, Saturn will get you, regardless of how "important" you deemed any action or inaction.
Just my two cents. ENJOY WHILE IT LASTS.
Very interesting topic! Thank you!
Love to All! Have a wonderful Jupiter Day!
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@Frater 639 said
"Love to All! Have a wonderful Jupiter Day!
"
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@Takamba said
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@kasper81 said
" Last week I needed a banana. I took some money to the supermarket, collected a banana, took a banana to the till, paid for it and SHAZAM!! Result. I acquired a banana."What if you didn't have the money for a banana? Would you just convince yourself that it wasn't your Will to complete your recipe?"
Yessssss, this this this. I feel like a whole lot of this 'a real magician doesn't need to use magic for material things' is a really classist attitude. This may be true for Mr Petit-Bourgeois magician who lives quite comfortably and never has cause for such magic. But, lets remember, most magical traditions centered around generating wealth, etc., are not created by bored suburban teens with no greater sense of their Truer Will, it's created by ex-slaves, farmhands and artisans. A spell for a big meal might seem superfluous to someone like Kasper, it's very seductive for someone like me...
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"If I don't "like" it, I change my "like" on the inside -- or, if it's easier to change the surroundings (the outside), I do that...this flow and momentum to me is synonymous with the True Will. If that is securing a new job with magical voracity or calming my desires down to live within my means, they are up the unique Will, and the one who can "listen and act" in accordance with their "orbit" has the least discomfort."
This attitude also, even - I do not mean to denigrate you, Frater, you're a good man, but I must bring it up
I mean, I was always taught that this was one of the highest alchemical secrets - this, if you don't like your situation, change yourself so you do like it... This is kind of... I mean, as I said before, this is alright for comfortable-living Mr Petit-Bourgeois Magician, but for magicians who live in poverty, or Magicians who face racism, etc, this seems ridiculous advice. I could not picture Clarence 13x, upon attaining to some powerful sphere, suddenly bending his knees and saying, 'thank Allah for you, White Officer, I'm so glad you're out here brutalizing my brothers' - or whatever. Or, even that I may some day attain to some great degree in the A.'.A.'. I do not imagine I shall ever be happy having to forgo meals or having my heat cut, or that I may celebrate my disability which leaves me bedridden and say to everyone 'oh you really must try it...' - I mean... All I'm saying is: when we consider this kind of attitude in terms of Oppression, you know? It seems to fall apart? It seems to presuppose that the magician benefits from the structures put in place by Colonizer Capitalism. It seems to me that for someone who suffers from those structures, the most powerful magician is the one who doesn't like her oppressive surroundings, who rises up and changes those structures, etcAh, I am being harsh on your comments, of course. I do not think that you nearly suggest that if the oppressed want to do magic they should be happy with their oppression. I'm just saying: a part of the discourse which is missed by a lot of these discussions, I think, is that there are people doing magic who aren't wealthy, white or able-bodied!
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"If you do desperately need food in the wonderfully advanced civilized UK, there are plenty of charities that will provide. www.trusselltrust.org/ma. There's also a section in any ASDA with cheap food that is near it's eat-by date. This isn't Africa we don't let people starve and the powers that be will do all they can to prevent Communism."
This kind of snobbish, willful classism is the kind of thing I'm talking about I think is common in magical discourse
and yes, I know, comrade, Crowley was a bourgeois who lived off his inheritance, I am not particularly interested in what he had to say about peasant magic & as many people would say, Thelema is not 'Crowley-ism'! -
Anyway, my GOD, Kasper, there are thelemites in Africa. Thelema isn't 'first world white boy only magic'
(and, nice job saying Africans aren't civilised - real nice, pal) -
"(1) Kasper says that Crowley wanted to take the folk-lore out of magic and embed the Hermetic principles with Vedanta and scepticism so it becomes a modern science and philosophy and so Kasper therefore is "classist" and "snobbish". I'm sorry but you're conclusions are incorrect. "
Well, no. Crowley had some classist attitudes, a lot of high magicians of that time did, they were the borugeoisie and by and large supported sexist & racist western imperialism. They were a lot better than a lot of people in England at that time! Crowley especially, I think, when you get past a lot of his awful attitudes, he was at least a 'progressive' - but these harmful attitudes were still there, and one of those attitudes was that condescending approach towards peasant magic. What is classist is when you say that thelema has no place for working class magic, that thelema's raison d'etre was to get rid of working class magic - your attitude is borderline exterminationist. And: I'm not saying 'Kasper is a classist', I'm saying your classist attitudes are common in this type of discourse over magic. (However, when someone working class asks you to challenge your views on the working class, and your response is telling them they're being illogical, you might well be a classist, fratrer)
"(2) Kasper claims and provides precise examples of there being mundane and practical means in the West for alleviating starvation and desperation and he thinks that discussions about "last resort magic" are silly. Ergo, again Kasper is being "classist" and "snobbish""
This is exactly what I mean. As someone who clearly isn't starving, telling someone who is that my concerns aren't really real, if I was in any real danger surely this society would look after me, blah blah - which is basically saying, 'shut up and quit complaining, be grateful for what you have' etc - this is pure classism.
"the African states are not on parr with the West in their social provision."
Yeah, uh... And this is basically descending into scientific racism. The poor oppressed third world, huh? The poor Africans who can't even rule themselves, right? 'Better bring back the Empires' - I mean, this is a horrible attitude, come on.
"However yes if I thought Rocky was only addressing African and Third World Thelemites on this forum then he should've stated so in the OP."
I mean, I'm not even suggesting he is. He may not be. But I'm trying to say: why is that discourse shut off from this discussion? Why do we have to explicitly mention these narratives from the get-go for them to be valid to bring up? More than this: I, as a poor magician, bring up how magic of this kind means something very different to me than it might to you, and you shut me down immediately by saying it's unnecessary, that I'm lucky to be part of a civilized first world country (Ireland is third world, btw - go look it up), and that I'm not logical - and with the tone of, 'don't talk about the magic you find useful, it's distracting/not thelemic.' Whatever... If an African magician did come into this thread, I don't think they'd find their narrative very well received.
"that done, to try and follow their inclinations which I'm guessing would be to try and GET OUT of the nightmare rogue-state which they inhabit!!"
Is this your position, though? Like, this is your reaction to me saying - magicians who face oppression may find so-and-so to be true for them... You say: magicians who are oppressed should try and get out of their oppression first. Christ, what is magic for, if not for that? You are really quite literally saying: magic is only for the white bourgeoisie. That's horrible essentialism.
"By the way Laura , y'know fopr someone whose ,"classist" and "snobbish" I have a weird way of showing it. That's why I make threads like this viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13139&start=0 in which I try to get across that uneducated folk are sometimes no different to "high adepts" as far as initiation goes."
[clutches heart] Oh! Oh! How mistaken I was! All is forgiven! I did not know that you made a thread saying Garbage Men don't know what the A.'.A.'. is. Clearly you value the working class enough to assume we haven't even heard of thelema, nevermind that we could ourselves be thelemites. When we're not eating from the tomorrow's date section in Asda, of course. And of course we could never become High Adepts.