I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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93,
I read the first two pages of the thread, and pretty much skimmed the rest. Noticed that everyone here seems really helpful, and Jim is giving excellent advice.
I only want to add two things, which may or may not be of help. I read the Terms of Agreement, but I am unsure of the protocol for posting links or quotes on this site. So if this post happens to be in violation, please feel free to remove it. No harm is intended.
Jim said:
@Jim Eshelman said
"In the authentic crossing of the Abyss, one doesn't battle these things into submission. Rather, one changes one's relationship to them. If anything is battled, it is one's reactivity; but, even then, it is more a matter of the reactivity not keying in because one's relation ship to the phenomena (and to one's one reactivity) is different.
One doesn't move further from experience, but more deeply into it.
One doesn't even get rid of negative feelings. They're just feelings, like the weather. Again, it's a matter of changing one's relationship to them. I think I would say that one's feelings. Thoughts, and circumstances are no longer the context within which one exists but, rather, that one is the context within which they exist.
"The Venerable Zen Master Thicht Nhat Hanh talks about, "Holding anger like a mother holding a baby". One could replace "anger" with any emotion, such as despair, doubt, grief, etc.
Also, Liber 418, The Cry of the 12th Aethyr, offers this:
"(This wine is such that its virtue radiateth through the cup, and I reel under the intoxication of it. And every thought is destroyed by it. It abideth alone, and its name is Compassion. I understand by "Compassion," the sacrament of suffering, partaken by the true worshippers of the Highest. And it is an ecstasy in which there is no trace of pain. Its passivity (=passion) is like the giving-up of the self to the beloved.)
The voice continues: This is the Mystery of Babylon, the Mother of abominations, and this is the mystery of her adulteries, for she hath yielded up herself to everything that liveth, and hath become a partaker in its mystery. And because she hath made herself the servant of each, therefore is she become the mistress of all. Not as yet canst thou comprehend her glory. "
93 93/93
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Post some early delusion & confusion, I now realize that I have a long road to walk and many obstacles to overcome before I reach the city of the pyramids and the final annihilation of the ego. My nature is very deformed from a lifetime of carrying the heaviness of a severely traumatized and restrictive personality, and will therefore not be overcome and erased just like that.
The mind is also very tricky and has had me fooled more than twice, but my awareness of it is making me more knowledgeable about all it’s tricks, and then at the same time, how to keep myself from interfering with it’s business… I just keep “watching” myself all day long, trying to work without “lust for result”. I even had to fall back to the prayer of gratitude for a while, since I have not in anyway fully formed the proper relation to all phenomena. Sometimes, I am still overpowered by the intensity of some of the darker shadows of despair, hopelessness and suicide.
There is so much suffering… The famous Gurdjieff is supposed to have said that:
“Ordinary men never experience true suffering and sorrow, for they live mechanical and routine lives, and their troubles are routine, automatic and inescapable. But a man who has willfully undertaken the extraordinary and unnecessary burden of the work, he alone knows the taste of real sorrow and sickness of heart, for he will suffer pain and pressures that life does not ordinarily require.”
I know by experience of what he meant by those words... I also know it's the only cure for overcoming all that pride and arrogance of mine… One must stay strong; let those tears keep coming.
The prayer of gratitude keeps the spirit up in my darkest moments (I'm very grateful for it; it's a life saver and the holy graal.), and from time to time when strong enough, I also get to “watch” the emotions without having to resort to the prayer. I feel more and more just to shut up and stay silent. I can’t see any reason to further comment upon this matter.
What will be will be...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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PS - There is no "final annihilation of the ego." There is just annihilation of the ego. And reconstitutes itself rather quickly.
The difference is that what your (for lack of a more convenient phrase) experience as yourself no longer identifies with it.
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Do What Thou Wilt,
I know well (my interpretation) of the emotional states you've described, THc, and for what it's worth (to you) I have recently been shared this audio book. The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruíz. It's not explicitly Thelemic, but to my ears has quite a resonance.
In my own quests I've found it helpful when one's Self reminds themselves that the Abyss is of Hallucinations, has "Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods." The Ego Driven quest for explanation is a short cut to Understanding, and it does not cross the Abyss with one's Self, but is stripped away. Short Circuits can cause an overload of current that contemporaneously "damages" the established circuitry. This sorrow (to me) sounds of the nature of that shedding of the skin, the clinging to Reason and
"27. There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.
- Now a curse upon Because and his kin!
- May Because be accursed for ever!
- If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.
- If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.
- Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.
- Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!
- But ye, o my people, rise up & awake!"
and also
"45. There is death for the dogs.
- Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?
- Where I am these are not.
- Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler."
and
"66. Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whososeeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
I would suggest you converse with your HGA as to what this state you are passing through is all about, and S/HE can relay better information.
Your Will is yours, and it is not feasible that another Star could discern it's nuances, even enough to pinpoint relevant anecdotes to answer your Initial quest-ion. IM(ns)HO your discussion speaks to many symptoms not just of Clinical Depression, but also to a state of (what seems to me to be) Grandiosity and other traits that confirm to the Clinical term Bipolar. The Oscillation between Despair and Ego Explosions is a red flag, to me.
My own painful stories are, like most stories, ones of Ego (identity, not Self) impinging it's Reason on Will, surrounded by the hallucinations of Time (past/future focus, leaving the Now immobilized with despair); the release from that state of Perpetual Despair has taught me this: Faith = +(Certainty); Hope = +(Uncertainty); Fear = -(Uncertainty); Despair = -(Certainty). With that Hope = Faith + Fear; Fear = Despair + Hope.
Let go and let God (as the southern baptists say). Acceptance is what it sounds like you're missing, and the lack of acceptance (the clinging to Pain, by the hands of Remorse and Regret) sounds (to me) to be a major component of what you're describing. I would recommend, for your own health, though you're explicitly not asking for it, that you look into some of the Cognitive Therapy that's been discussed. Psychology is a grandchild of Magick, and it's approach can be helpful. I particularly find use in Mindfulness Based therapies, as they are heavily influenced from Buddhism, and (in my experience) compatible with Magickal thought patterns.
"42. Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
- Do that, and no other shall say nay.
- For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."
I speak but from my own Ego's mouth, and would Do well to remember:
"21. We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world. Think not, o king, upon that lie: That Thou Must Die: verily thou shalt not die, but live. Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. Nuit! Hadit! Ra-Hoor-Khuit! The Sun, Strength & Sight, Light; these are for the servants of the Star & the Snake."
In summary, I found this topic to be quite thoroughly discussed and elucidating, and I appreciate the efforts of all, and the earnest honesty of your sharing, THc. Many Gratitudes to you, AL.
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all,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I'm so sick and tired of this staying aware! I have tried this method for the past 9 months.
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT!
Now I will go unconscious! I will try to stay a sleep! I will be mechanical! No more of this trying to be alert! No more of this watching my emotions and thoughts! I am going to try real hard trying to think a thousand thoughts and feel emotional all day long!
I will be active instead of trying to be passive!
I will be walking backwards instead of forwards
I will be trying instead of not trying!
I will live instead of trying to die!
I will eat instead of starving!
I will boast and brag, instead of being modest and simple!
I will be complex instead of being simple!
I will be old and dead instead of childish!
I will be arrogant instead of humble!
I will be impatient; to hell with patience!
I will be trying to smoke as much as I can instead of not smoking!I am sick and tired of this mind and it's quest for virtue! I don't care for enlightenment! I embrace ignorance! I am sick and tired of of doing it correctly! Now I will do everything backwards! You hear me! Backwards! I will do everything the wrong way!
To all these wrongdoings my mind seem to respond with a big "ERROR"! But it gave me a good laugh.
Love is the law, love under will!
Peace
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There is no "Try."
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"Thou wast long seeking Me; thou didst run forward so fast that I was unable to come up with thee.
Oh thou darling fool! what bitterness thou didst crown thy days withal."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"There is no "Try.""
To my mind there is a trying "not be trying" - it understands that it shouldn't be trying, but the mind doesn't know anything else than trying, becoming, moving, creating tension. So I will take my vengeance upon it! I will feed the mind with the idea of trying, all day long I will tell my mind to try harder, become tense, move, be active, think!
The mind knows that it has to relax and just be! But it's very nature is to be on the move and create tension. It can only pretend and hide itself... and it does...
That's why I refuse to have the mind believing in the idea of "no try"! The mind has no right to believe in that kind of stuff! The mind doesn't know that kind of stuff... So I will feed the mind with what it deserves. I will shove every falsity there is; everything that is the opposite of becoming enlightened I will show down it's throat!
The mind should know it's damn place! It should know that it isn't invited to the partey!
Love is the law, love under will
Peace
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Not much peace there, bro, though I wish it to you, too.
There are times when discipline is needed, a training of reactive subconsciousness or self-conscious reason. I'm hearing a lot of pain and hostility, though. The mind does need to be invited to the party. You need all of your resources, all the faculties that you are building.
I think (best guess) you're recoiling from your intellect's existing patterns of judging you. If so, I agree that there is benefit in getting Rusch out of the habit of being judgmental.
Peace.
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Thank you for your replies!
@Jim Eshelman said
"Not much peace there, bro, though I wish it to you, too.
There are times when discipline is needed, a training of reactive subconsciousness or self-conscious reason. I'm hearing a lot of pain and hostility, though. "To some degree I probably exaggerate how I feel… and to some degree it is what you see… I have a tendency to lean towards exaggeration. In both cases emotionalism is there; being like this big frustrated child; lusting for result.
I don’t understand myself or this outburst of mine, whatever it means. I can’t see that I will make any major changes from the life I live right now: just sitting on a chair, sitting everywhere, most of the time doing nothing in particular. I don’t even feel like doing anything special. If something would come to mind I would do it, but the thing is, nothing really comes to mind!
It’s blank…
I don’t think what I say at the moment is to be trusted… I don’t feel trustworthy… I feel frustrated and confused. I sometimes feel confusion… confusion makes me unable to listen to advice, making up my mind about anything, being consistent about anything… This is why nothing these days seem to give me some everlasting satisfaction or consolation due to confusion… But also oblivion; yesterday somehow doesn’t exist anymore and is immediately swept away to be forever forgotten… I always have had a poor memory, but now it's really none existent. At the moment there seem to be no place for me to lay down my head and thus to rest in any kind of certainty.
Getting out of my head, just keep feeling seem to be the only answer to it… I can just go on feeling… relaxing… accepting… not trying… letting things happen by themselves… Wu wei…
That’s what it all boils down to, just living… paying attention to feeling… I don’t know how to get out of this vacuum that’s for sure… and I really shouldn’t feel like that since this trip shouldn’t have any goal… I have this vague feeling that there is no such thing as “crossing” anything.
Anyways, I still believe that all is going well, judging from my experience of these last 9 months. I laugh and feel quite happy most of the time – the 2,5 years of tears, pain and utter despair is no more... I cried from meditation (?) a few days ago, I cried and then I laughed, then I cried and then I laughed again back and forth… But it was good tears, not tears of despair; those were months ago. I have probably not felt better in my whole life… getting better each day…
Perhaps there has unconsciously been some “lust for result”, to much desire… but logically living like this, not doing anything in particular, will probably kill me somehow in the end… How else to end desire, how to counteract it? I don’t know… It’s so hard to putting no effort to it… being effortless…
I’ll just go on living… accepting… yes accepting is also so hard! How to accept everything as it is? How to relax? I know all these beautiful words but how to live by them? Either it will sort itself out, or it won’t… I’ll just go on living… hoping to calm down once again… I really can’t do anything than just letting things happen by themselves and having myself slowly growing into the experience…
In the end and once again, I feel that all is going well. Thank you.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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If you miss the point, you are lost.
The point is, there is no point. The mind cannot "kill" itself. The very purpose of the mind is to continue its seeming existence.
In the Abyss, the continuity is shattered. The more you clamor to try and piece it back together, the harder the ordeal, and the longer the journey through it.
You have to shed EVERYTHING... hence the symbolism inherent in the "Babe of the Abyss". However, you cannot actively shed anything. So, you are stuck with that paradox. And that is the paradox of the Abyss.
You have to find your own answer, and your own question.
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I am glad we had this public talk, since today I have been back on track touching; I mean "watching" myself.
As Krishnamurti put it: "The observer is the observed".
@Jim Eshelman said
"The mind does need to be invited to the party. You need all of your resources, all the faculties that you are building."
I really needed to hear that... Now I want to dance, no more of this endless talking okey!?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@kasper81 said
"Jim how would you say the total beginner is impacted upon by Tav, Shin and Coph?"
The total beginner is impacted by so many jumbled, unsorted, intermixed factors, it's hard to say. It's not just "Qabbalistic influences" for which this is so - undirected psychological processes, bodies out of balance, prana channels disequilibrated, etc. can and do exist in different combinations for different people.
The preliminary work starts to sort these out, smooth them. At first, the energization of the preliminary work may seem to make things even more chaotic because there is an acceleration of how ever we find the person to begin with. It's quite usual to see an effect like rapid acceleration of a car with badly balanced tired that jerks one way or the other, with a driver over-compensating etc. The preliminary work should "balance the tires" so that acceleration tends to propel one in a straight curve.
One could analyze these three Paths in different ways and find different kinds of influences - for example, these three Paths relate to time in dramatically different ways - I think, though, that the main factor is that these aren't the only operative factors for someone who is "all over the map."
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@kasper81 said
"Isn't Tav literally a cross as in a "crossing" a min-Abyss? What about the fire aspect of Shin and the Piscean aspect of Qoph? Pisces can imply hesitancy and self-conflict as both fishes go off in conflicting directions. Doesn't this represent the dread feelings?"
Interesting thought. It had never occurred to me that the cross was a crossing. (The original meaning is a signature - "make your mark on the contract" - a commitment to agreement, hence describing the universe as a consensual reality etc.)
I don't object to the "crossing" idea, but it's no more a "crossing" of boundaries than, say, Samekh, which doesn't have that meaning.
Yes, the Fire vs. Water themes of the collateral channels would be important, especially since Tav/Saturn/Earth corresponds to the muladhara chakra. Shiyn and Qof are one way of representing the Fire and Water currents moving up either side of the spine (and this is described in the Tav paragraph of The 32 Paths of Wisdom).
"Dread feelings" are the marks of someone not ready to take the step inward.
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"He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings."
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Hawkheaded,
It's been a while since all this began for you and since you first wanted feedback.
Could you maybe reframe all this for us again in terms of what you intended to accomplish when you entered this experience? - what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have? - how you intend to judge yourself done?
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I guess what I'm saying, man, is...
Hey, frater, let's lay aside all assumptions about grade and proper methodology. You want to call it an Abyss? Okay, cool, let's talk about why you're using that symbolism. You know? And there'll be a side discussion of the technical requirements of the grade associated with that full experience, I'm sure. But I'm more interested in how you're thinking about your own experience. As far as you feel comfortable in a public setting, what is your experience like for you? Would that kind of discussion be beneficial in determining your own organization of your experience? If that would help you determine your next step... If you're at that point...
I've been both helped and hurt by the process, but in the end, I feel understood, at least by some. And I learn.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(The original meaning is a signature - "make your mark on the contract" - a commitment to agreement, hence describing the universe as a consensual reality etc.)"
This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath.
@kasper81 said
"Nietzsche did not practice magick I think it's fair to say. He was a visionary and an intellectual (or anti-intellectual)."
I don't think Nietzsche necessarily practiced magick in the sense of Crowley and ceremonial magick, but he definitely did in the sense you were bringing up a while ago with the "magically clueless Magister Templi." He didn't necessarily use the same terms but was experiencing much of the same things.
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"This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath."
I'm fairly certain he didn't pass the probationer period, I am sure i have read this. I believe this is why he said some childishly nasty things about Crowley, despite never meeting the man. I think he was a little jealous that he wasn't good enough for the A.'.A.'...... (This says more about me- I have never liked LaVey.)
"I just want to add to this. Jim made a point about Frederick Nietzsche approaching the Abyss but without a connection to the divine. Nietzsche did not practice magick I think it's fair to say. He was a visionary and an intellectual (or anti-intellectual)."
A few months ago when you quoted the following a lot comes to mind
"Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'. A.'. without ever hearing that such an Order exists. The universe is, in fact, busy with nothing else,"
Nietzsche is perhaps an example of the above statement. Life itself is an initiation to some people, for others initiation is part of their lives, for a time anyway. I believe the A.'.A.'. could speed things up a bit i.e. doing the work seems to stir the pot so to speak.....but for some people their pots have already been stirred too much.
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Guys, no offense intended, but please take it to the Nietzsche thread.