I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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Not much peace there, bro, though I wish it to you, too.
There are times when discipline is needed, a training of reactive subconsciousness or self-conscious reason. I'm hearing a lot of pain and hostility, though. The mind does need to be invited to the party. You need all of your resources, all the faculties that you are building.
I think (best guess) you're recoiling from your intellect's existing patterns of judging you. If so, I agree that there is benefit in getting Rusch out of the habit of being judgmental.
Peace.
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Thank you for your replies!
@Jim Eshelman said
"Not much peace there, bro, though I wish it to you, too.
There are times when discipline is needed, a training of reactive subconsciousness or self-conscious reason. I'm hearing a lot of pain and hostility, though. "To some degree I probably exaggerate how I feel… and to some degree it is what you see… I have a tendency to lean towards exaggeration. In both cases emotionalism is there; being like this big frustrated child; lusting for result.
I don’t understand myself or this outburst of mine, whatever it means. I can’t see that I will make any major changes from the life I live right now: just sitting on a chair, sitting everywhere, most of the time doing nothing in particular. I don’t even feel like doing anything special. If something would come to mind I would do it, but the thing is, nothing really comes to mind!
It’s blank…
I don’t think what I say at the moment is to be trusted… I don’t feel trustworthy… I feel frustrated and confused. I sometimes feel confusion… confusion makes me unable to listen to advice, making up my mind about anything, being consistent about anything… This is why nothing these days seem to give me some everlasting satisfaction or consolation due to confusion… But also oblivion; yesterday somehow doesn’t exist anymore and is immediately swept away to be forever forgotten… I always have had a poor memory, but now it's really none existent. At the moment there seem to be no place for me to lay down my head and thus to rest in any kind of certainty.
Getting out of my head, just keep feeling seem to be the only answer to it… I can just go on feeling… relaxing… accepting… not trying… letting things happen by themselves… Wu wei…
That’s what it all boils down to, just living… paying attention to feeling… I don’t know how to get out of this vacuum that’s for sure… and I really shouldn’t feel like that since this trip shouldn’t have any goal… I have this vague feeling that there is no such thing as “crossing” anything.
Anyways, I still believe that all is going well, judging from my experience of these last 9 months. I laugh and feel quite happy most of the time – the 2,5 years of tears, pain and utter despair is no more... I cried from meditation (?) a few days ago, I cried and then I laughed, then I cried and then I laughed again back and forth… But it was good tears, not tears of despair; those were months ago. I have probably not felt better in my whole life… getting better each day…
Perhaps there has unconsciously been some “lust for result”, to much desire… but logically living like this, not doing anything in particular, will probably kill me somehow in the end… How else to end desire, how to counteract it? I don’t know… It’s so hard to putting no effort to it… being effortless…
I’ll just go on living… accepting… yes accepting is also so hard! How to accept everything as it is? How to relax? I know all these beautiful words but how to live by them? Either it will sort itself out, or it won’t… I’ll just go on living… hoping to calm down once again… I really can’t do anything than just letting things happen by themselves and having myself slowly growing into the experience…
In the end and once again, I feel that all is going well. Thank you.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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If you miss the point, you are lost.
The point is, there is no point. The mind cannot "kill" itself. The very purpose of the mind is to continue its seeming existence.
In the Abyss, the continuity is shattered. The more you clamor to try and piece it back together, the harder the ordeal, and the longer the journey through it.
You have to shed EVERYTHING... hence the symbolism inherent in the "Babe of the Abyss". However, you cannot actively shed anything. So, you are stuck with that paradox. And that is the paradox of the Abyss.
You have to find your own answer, and your own question.
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I am glad we had this public talk, since today I have been back on track touching; I mean "watching" myself.
As Krishnamurti put it: "The observer is the observed".
@Jim Eshelman said
"The mind does need to be invited to the party. You need all of your resources, all the faculties that you are building."
I really needed to hear that... Now I want to dance, no more of this endless talking okey!?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@kasper81 said
"Jim how would you say the total beginner is impacted upon by Tav, Shin and Coph?"
The total beginner is impacted by so many jumbled, unsorted, intermixed factors, it's hard to say. It's not just "Qabbalistic influences" for which this is so - undirected psychological processes, bodies out of balance, prana channels disequilibrated, etc. can and do exist in different combinations for different people.
The preliminary work starts to sort these out, smooth them. At first, the energization of the preliminary work may seem to make things even more chaotic because there is an acceleration of how ever we find the person to begin with. It's quite usual to see an effect like rapid acceleration of a car with badly balanced tired that jerks one way or the other, with a driver over-compensating etc. The preliminary work should "balance the tires" so that acceleration tends to propel one in a straight curve.
One could analyze these three Paths in different ways and find different kinds of influences - for example, these three Paths relate to time in dramatically different ways - I think, though, that the main factor is that these aren't the only operative factors for someone who is "all over the map."
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@kasper81 said
"Isn't Tav literally a cross as in a "crossing" a min-Abyss? What about the fire aspect of Shin and the Piscean aspect of Qoph? Pisces can imply hesitancy and self-conflict as both fishes go off in conflicting directions. Doesn't this represent the dread feelings?"
Interesting thought. It had never occurred to me that the cross was a crossing. (The original meaning is a signature - "make your mark on the contract" - a commitment to agreement, hence describing the universe as a consensual reality etc.)
I don't object to the "crossing" idea, but it's no more a "crossing" of boundaries than, say, Samekh, which doesn't have that meaning.
Yes, the Fire vs. Water themes of the collateral channels would be important, especially since Tav/Saturn/Earth corresponds to the muladhara chakra. Shiyn and Qof are one way of representing the Fire and Water currents moving up either side of the spine (and this is described in the Tav paragraph of The 32 Paths of Wisdom).
"Dread feelings" are the marks of someone not ready to take the step inward.
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"He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings."
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Hawkheaded,
It's been a while since all this began for you and since you first wanted feedback.
Could you maybe reframe all this for us again in terms of what you intended to accomplish when you entered this experience? - what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have? - how you intend to judge yourself done?
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I guess what I'm saying, man, is...
Hey, frater, let's lay aside all assumptions about grade and proper methodology. You want to call it an Abyss? Okay, cool, let's talk about why you're using that symbolism. You know? And there'll be a side discussion of the technical requirements of the grade associated with that full experience, I'm sure. But I'm more interested in how you're thinking about your own experience. As far as you feel comfortable in a public setting, what is your experience like for you? Would that kind of discussion be beneficial in determining your own organization of your experience? If that would help you determine your next step... If you're at that point...
I've been both helped and hurt by the process, but in the end, I feel understood, at least by some. And I learn.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(The original meaning is a signature - "make your mark on the contract" - a commitment to agreement, hence describing the universe as a consensual reality etc.)"
This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath.
@kasper81 said
"Nietzsche did not practice magick I think it's fair to say. He was a visionary and an intellectual (or anti-intellectual)."
I don't think Nietzsche necessarily practiced magick in the sense of Crowley and ceremonial magick, but he definitely did in the sense you were bringing up a while ago with the "magically clueless Magister Templi." He didn't necessarily use the same terms but was experiencing much of the same things.
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"This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath."
I'm fairly certain he didn't pass the probationer period, I am sure i have read this. I believe this is why he said some childishly nasty things about Crowley, despite never meeting the man. I think he was a little jealous that he wasn't good enough for the A.'.A.'...... (This says more about me- I have never liked LaVey.)
"I just want to add to this. Jim made a point about Frederick Nietzsche approaching the Abyss but without a connection to the divine. Nietzsche did not practice magick I think it's fair to say. He was a visionary and an intellectual (or anti-intellectual)."
A few months ago when you quoted the following a lot comes to mind
"Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'. A.'. without ever hearing that such an Order exists. The universe is, in fact, busy with nothing else,"
Nietzsche is perhaps an example of the above statement. Life itself is an initiation to some people, for others initiation is part of their lives, for a time anyway. I believe the A.'.A.'. could speed things up a bit i.e. doing the work seems to stir the pot so to speak.....but for some people their pots have already been stirred too much.
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Guys, no offense intended, but please take it to the Nietzsche thread.
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It might be on topic if you had the decency to direct or relate your comments to Hawkheaded himself instead of this sideways bullshit, amigo.
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"Oh Adonai, direct my recollections, and thus my every thought, that I may know that every moment is a particular dealing of the Divine with my soul."
A prayer for anyone who may be lashing about in the Abyss, Hawkheaded included.
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In my experience with the "oh my god is this the Abyss?" phenomena, well you just have to hear me on this one...
It can be conceived as one phenomena with three stages of development. Kind of... always the same thing but experienced on different levels with different stages of learning and progress.
A physical reality level, a moral level, and a truly Philosophical level. The degree worker prepares for one stage at a time with a map. The All-At-Oncer gets stuck in the All-At-Oncerness of it. Cause it's freaking All-At-Once.
In my opinion, the best way to orient is to focus on Tav, the first path. Then, at least the next stages on the way out, across, whatever, can happen in order. I mean, if you're really totally lost.
93,
Legis
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@Legis said
"It might be on topic if you had the decency to direct or relate your comments to Hawkheaded himself instead of this sideways bullshit, amigo."
Legis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
He makes good meditation... I immediately felt anger due to the insult behind his move trying to "high-jack" the thread... I felt the wicked intention behind his action, his selfishness, and desire to cause trouble (he did it on purpose.). A year ago I would tell him to fuck off, but I don't react in the same way I used to.
He is "about to be" what Los already has become (both make good case studies for those who don't know what a Black Brother is.). His mischievous nature is simply something to be grateful...
Lets make him a part of our meditation.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though.
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Legis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I seem at loss how to answer you… I keep formulating answers based upon what already has been told; simply to have them erased... I kind of feel that I have poured so much of myself out in this thread, leaving me with the feeling that I don’t have much more to say…
@Legis said
"what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have?"
The only metaphor that comes to mind is BABALON – awaiting the beloved. But then I am really not awaiting anything since I feel very far away from crossing any abyss. I don’t care, I don’t “actively” think about metaphors or anything special at all anymore… I used them in my post trying to making myself understood. The only thing I’m occupied with at the moment is “watching” myself… Just living the simple life of a beggar. I have been homeless for awhile sleeping beneath a bridge, but now I’m more comfortable staying at the place of a woman.
She is a good soul and the perfect master, having no interest in spiritual matters, constantly testing me with her chaotic nature and doing things the opposite way to that of my own… “Nagging” about “this and that”; thus creating a good atmosphere for meditation!
@Legis said
"what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have? - how you intend to judge yourself done?"
I don’t know how to judge myself done – after facing Choronzon? (I am in no way ready for that at the moment!). But I expect the whole process to take many years. Life long habits and reactions has to be overcome, not to mention all those sub-personalities: “The teacher”, “the politician, “the clown” etc. The whole crowd of voices within screaming “I am I” has to be dealt with. Eventually it all will sort itself out (by itself!)…
I can see myself “changing” and I seem to get more and more tuned into the mindset of not trying to reach anywhere, there is not something to be “over with” – no goal to reach. I simply have to forget about knowledge, metaphors, the path, grades and initiation and just “live”… and have myself staying in the present moment. There is “suffering” in the desire of wanting to go somewhere, wanting to achieve something, so naturally I’m slowly dropping the whole idea of the abyss, union with god, reaching anywhere etc. Instead I’m focusing on the little things, eating, taking a shower, a walk, reading the books of OSHO, just watching myself in all of life’s situations, just living…
I have already gotten a first glimpse of the inner peace and silence as a consequence of my prayers last year. I have seen the light… Sometimes it’s there, sometimes it’s not. Most of the time it’s not… But I have seen the essence of myself, now what is there to achieve? What can I improve on that inner essence? Nothing! There is nothing to attain nor to achieve.
I can only let mine star shine forth. I can only let it happen by dropping the dark veils of ignorance, and so by “letting it happen by itself”… Because it’s not an achievement, it’s not a try, it’s not a going – it’s an constant flux between a “letting go” and a “letting in” – a letting go of myself and letting in of the Lord. My work is done, I am finished, all my strife, all my hardships are over, there is nothing more for me to do, but letting go and letting in… Wu wei!
And thanks to my involvement here once again I had an understanding during these last 24 hours, and it tells me that it doesn’t matter if I make every wrong there is in the book… It doesn’t matter at all, because those wrongs are due to my own involvement in the process, the wrongs are a consequence of the “tension” created by the mind itself; when losing my “watchfulness”. Now how to make a “wrong” becoming a “right” by getting rid of the cause called “tension”? Relaxing… Simply relaxing… That’s my only job here relaxing… and letting things happen by themselves… How great isn’t this promise of God? Telling me just to relax and enjoy? It’s not what one expected huh? Going through life trying so hard.
I can’t fail… Jim is here, you are here, Kasper is here
, everybody is here on these forums. I am in the company of saints. How on earth am I ever going to fail while being in the presence of the most high? Every time I come here and expose myself and my problems, I am helped… I know where to go if I will once again feel frustrated and lost…Let us relax a little.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Legis said
"That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though."
(Acknowledging that there's always room in the universe for an exception to show its face...)
I disagree (with what I think you meant at least). It is the K&C of the HGA that provides the momentum (that's the metaphor routinely used) sufficient to cross. One can certainly slip off the banks into unrecoverable depths...
Of course, a thousand lifetimes later (just to pick a convenient number), one can give it another go.
Angel first. It's the context in which the Abyss exists and is there to cross.
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Well, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
"There are three ordeals in one..."
First assumption: I'm taking these three ordeals to be the ordeals of the grades, the final one being the true ordeal of the Abyss. Don't know if I'm right about this or not.
Second assumption: I'm thinking of the "in one" as meaning that each of the three ordeals share an underlying similarity of ordeal manifesting itself in three different areas of the aspirant's totality.
Truly, the ordeal of the Abyss is the final ordeal. However, from the perspective of the untrained and unfocused-on-stage, they've just stepped off into the unknown of the "one" fundamental ordeal without the bearings of the three developmental stages-approach.
In this manner, it is still true that the Abyss is the final stage ordeal, but for the one without such bearings, the "one" fundamental ordeal can be ...questioned(?)... in three different ways, sometimes involving the questions of the truly final ordeal (in terms of stages). In this understanding, it is not the true ordeal of the Abyss, but the experience can manifest itself with those qualities, following the investigation of the aspirant.
From their perspective, it may as well be the Abyss and may seem to fully share its qualities. But since it's not fully in actuality due to the lack of progress through the appropriate stages, there is still the possibility to focus the completely jumbled ordeal to its most proper developmental stage.