I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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"He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings."
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Hawkheaded,
It's been a while since all this began for you and since you first wanted feedback.
Could you maybe reframe all this for us again in terms of what you intended to accomplish when you entered this experience? - what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have? - how you intend to judge yourself done?
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I guess what I'm saying, man, is...
Hey, frater, let's lay aside all assumptions about grade and proper methodology. You want to call it an Abyss? Okay, cool, let's talk about why you're using that symbolism. You know? And there'll be a side discussion of the technical requirements of the grade associated with that full experience, I'm sure. But I'm more interested in how you're thinking about your own experience. As far as you feel comfortable in a public setting, what is your experience like for you? Would that kind of discussion be beneficial in determining your own organization of your experience? If that would help you determine your next step... If you're at that point...
I've been both helped and hurt by the process, but in the end, I feel understood, at least by some. And I learn.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(The original meaning is a signature - "make your mark on the contract" - a commitment to agreement, hence describing the universe as a consensual reality etc.)"
This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath.
@kasper81 said
"Nietzsche did not practice magick I think it's fair to say. He was a visionary and an intellectual (or anti-intellectual)."
I don't think Nietzsche necessarily practiced magick in the sense of Crowley and ceremonial magick, but he definitely did in the sense you were bringing up a while ago with the "magically clueless Magister Templi." He didn't necessarily use the same terms but was experiencing much of the same things.
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"This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath."
I'm fairly certain he didn't pass the probationer period, I am sure i have read this. I believe this is why he said some childishly nasty things about Crowley, despite never meeting the man. I think he was a little jealous that he wasn't good enough for the A.'.A.'...... (This says more about me- I have never liked LaVey.)
"I just want to add to this. Jim made a point about Frederick Nietzsche approaching the Abyss but without a connection to the divine. Nietzsche did not practice magick I think it's fair to say. He was a visionary and an intellectual (or anti-intellectual)."
A few months ago when you quoted the following a lot comes to mind
"Many people may go through the ordeals and attain the degrees of the A.'. A.'. without ever hearing that such an Order exists. The universe is, in fact, busy with nothing else,"
Nietzsche is perhaps an example of the above statement. Life itself is an initiation to some people, for others initiation is part of their lives, for a time anyway. I believe the A.'.A.'. could speed things up a bit i.e. doing the work seems to stir the pot so to speak.....but for some people their pots have already been stirred too much.
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Guys, no offense intended, but please take it to the Nietzsche thread.
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It might be on topic if you had the decency to direct or relate your comments to Hawkheaded himself instead of this sideways bullshit, amigo.
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"Oh Adonai, direct my recollections, and thus my every thought, that I may know that every moment is a particular dealing of the Divine with my soul."
A prayer for anyone who may be lashing about in the Abyss, Hawkheaded included.
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In my experience with the "oh my god is this the Abyss?" phenomena, well you just have to hear me on this one...
It can be conceived as one phenomena with three stages of development. Kind of... always the same thing but experienced on different levels with different stages of learning and progress.
A physical reality level, a moral level, and a truly Philosophical level. The degree worker prepares for one stage at a time with a map. The All-At-Oncer gets stuck in the All-At-Oncerness of it. Cause it's freaking All-At-Once.
In my opinion, the best way to orient is to focus on Tav, the first path. Then, at least the next stages on the way out, across, whatever, can happen in order. I mean, if you're really totally lost.
93,
Legis
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@Legis said
"It might be on topic if you had the decency to direct or relate your comments to Hawkheaded himself instead of this sideways bullshit, amigo."
Legis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
He makes good meditation... I immediately felt anger due to the insult behind his move trying to "high-jack" the thread... I felt the wicked intention behind his action, his selfishness, and desire to cause trouble (he did it on purpose.). A year ago I would tell him to fuck off, but I don't react in the same way I used to.
He is "about to be" what Los already has become (both make good case studies for those who don't know what a Black Brother is.). His mischievous nature is simply something to be grateful...
Lets make him a part of our meditation.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though.
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Legis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I seem at loss how to answer you… I keep formulating answers based upon what already has been told; simply to have them erased... I kind of feel that I have poured so much of myself out in this thread, leaving me with the feeling that I don’t have much more to say…
@Legis said
"what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have?"
The only metaphor that comes to mind is BABALON – awaiting the beloved. But then I am really not awaiting anything since I feel very far away from crossing any abyss. I don’t care, I don’t “actively” think about metaphors or anything special at all anymore… I used them in my post trying to making myself understood. The only thing I’m occupied with at the moment is “watching” myself… Just living the simple life of a beggar. I have been homeless for awhile sleeping beneath a bridge, but now I’m more comfortable staying at the place of a woman.
She is a good soul and the perfect master, having no interest in spiritual matters, constantly testing me with her chaotic nature and doing things the opposite way to that of my own… “Nagging” about “this and that”; thus creating a good atmosphere for meditation!
@Legis said
"what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have? - how you intend to judge yourself done?"
I don’t know how to judge myself done – after facing Choronzon? (I am in no way ready for that at the moment!). But I expect the whole process to take many years. Life long habits and reactions has to be overcome, not to mention all those sub-personalities: “The teacher”, “the politician, “the clown” etc. The whole crowd of voices within screaming “I am I” has to be dealt with. Eventually it all will sort itself out (by itself!)…
I can see myself “changing” and I seem to get more and more tuned into the mindset of not trying to reach anywhere, there is not something to be “over with” – no goal to reach. I simply have to forget about knowledge, metaphors, the path, grades and initiation and just “live”… and have myself staying in the present moment. There is “suffering” in the desire of wanting to go somewhere, wanting to achieve something, so naturally I’m slowly dropping the whole idea of the abyss, union with god, reaching anywhere etc. Instead I’m focusing on the little things, eating, taking a shower, a walk, reading the books of OSHO, just watching myself in all of life’s situations, just living…
I have already gotten a first glimpse of the inner peace and silence as a consequence of my prayers last year. I have seen the light… Sometimes it’s there, sometimes it’s not. Most of the time it’s not… But I have seen the essence of myself, now what is there to achieve? What can I improve on that inner essence? Nothing! There is nothing to attain nor to achieve.
I can only let mine star shine forth. I can only let it happen by dropping the dark veils of ignorance, and so by “letting it happen by itself”… Because it’s not an achievement, it’s not a try, it’s not a going – it’s an constant flux between a “letting go” and a “letting in” – a letting go of myself and letting in of the Lord. My work is done, I am finished, all my strife, all my hardships are over, there is nothing more for me to do, but letting go and letting in… Wu wei!
And thanks to my involvement here once again I had an understanding during these last 24 hours, and it tells me that it doesn’t matter if I make every wrong there is in the book… It doesn’t matter at all, because those wrongs are due to my own involvement in the process, the wrongs are a consequence of the “tension” created by the mind itself; when losing my “watchfulness”. Now how to make a “wrong” becoming a “right” by getting rid of the cause called “tension”? Relaxing… Simply relaxing… That’s my only job here relaxing… and letting things happen by themselves… How great isn’t this promise of God? Telling me just to relax and enjoy? It’s not what one expected huh? Going through life trying so hard.
I can’t fail… Jim is here, you are here, Kasper is here
, everybody is here on these forums. I am in the company of saints. How on earth am I ever going to fail while being in the presence of the most high? Every time I come here and expose myself and my problems, I am helped… I know where to go if I will once again feel frustrated and lost…Let us relax a little.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Legis said
"That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though."
(Acknowledging that there's always room in the universe for an exception to show its face...)
I disagree (with what I think you meant at least). It is the K&C of the HGA that provides the momentum (that's the metaphor routinely used) sufficient to cross. One can certainly slip off the banks into unrecoverable depths...
Of course, a thousand lifetimes later (just to pick a convenient number), one can give it another go.
Angel first. It's the context in which the Abyss exists and is there to cross.
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Well, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
"There are three ordeals in one..."
First assumption: I'm taking these three ordeals to be the ordeals of the grades, the final one being the true ordeal of the Abyss. Don't know if I'm right about this or not.
Second assumption: I'm thinking of the "in one" as meaning that each of the three ordeals share an underlying similarity of ordeal manifesting itself in three different areas of the aspirant's totality.
Truly, the ordeal of the Abyss is the final ordeal. However, from the perspective of the untrained and unfocused-on-stage, they've just stepped off into the unknown of the "one" fundamental ordeal without the bearings of the three developmental stages-approach.
In this manner, it is still true that the Abyss is the final stage ordeal, but for the one without such bearings, the "one" fundamental ordeal can be ...questioned(?)... in three different ways, sometimes involving the questions of the truly final ordeal (in terms of stages). In this understanding, it is not the true ordeal of the Abyss, but the experience can manifest itself with those qualities, following the investigation of the aspirant.
From their perspective, it may as well be the Abyss and may seem to fully share its qualities. But since it's not fully in actuality due to the lack of progress through the appropriate stages, there is still the possibility to focus the completely jumbled ordeal to its most proper developmental stage.
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@Legis said
"In this manner, it is still true that the Abyss is the final stage ordeal"
On this we agree.
On the rest, it just seems like intellectualizing.
PS - Almost as a digression, and certainly as opinion... I do think the three ordeals are, in one sense, the ordeals of the grade, though only incidentally. I think, at root, the first is an ordeal experienced in Nefesh, the second in Ruach, and the third in N'shamah. They are the same ordeal, but experienced differently because each aspect of consciousness operates differently. They're all going on all the time... but you have to be 'awake' (to some extent) in each aspect of mind to register them, i.e., one must be awake in N'shamah before the third ordeal is "visible."
Back to the thread: In terms of the subjects of the thread, the only subject is THE "experience of the Abyss" (to use the title). This (the topic of the thread) is the context in which I gave my earlier answer.
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Intellectualizing, yes. In an attempt to translate from the world of order into the world of someone's personal experience of the phenomena. This discussion is part of that.
All that to say to anyone truly lost in the Abyss, how can you Will to Love Her until you know your own Will-Self? -Her Lover? How can you know your own Will-Self until? And thus the order of the grade stages and their symbolism makes logical sense.
But to someone truly lost, knowing the basic order is key. It creates a checklist and a compass, at least.
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@kasper81 said
"Jim how do you explain Nietzsche messing up his crossing? In fact how did he even get, "near" the Abyss as he never did any magick or yoga?"
I have to go back one of these days and study earlier elements of his life. (It's been 40 years since my main Nietzsche period). Without doing that, I can't give you a good answer.
It seems clear, though, that at the time of his slipping off the banks he had severed any link he ever had to intimate connection to the Divine.
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"This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath."
The Neophyte Oath: the wickedest oath in the world
Insane pêople are insane.
@mark0987 said
"I believe the A.'.A.'. could speed things up a bit i.e. doing the work seems to stir the pot so to speak.....but for some people their pots have already been stirred too much."
Interesting. Could you share some ideas? Some key points you would modify if you were to create an order from an AA basis?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Legis said
"That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though."(Acknowledging that there's always room in the universe for an exception to show its face...)
I disagree (with what I think you meant at least). It is the K&C of the HGA that provides the momentum (that's the metaphor routinely used) sufficient to cross. One can certainly slip off the banks into unrecoverable depths...
Of course, a thousand lifetimes later (just to pick a convenient number), one can give it another go.
Angel first. It's the context in which the Abyss exists and is there to cross."
Could it be less exceptional to face briatic ordeal before the yetziratic one? Or to face both at the same time? Thus it could be experienced even more abyss-like than regular Path of Tav or Tiphareth crisis?
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It's a matter of gaining access to Briatic consciousness. That's a different step.