Ye shall gather store of women .
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@Solitarius said
"That's a bit more laid back, plus you get to spend the whole day surfing the internet."
Though I joke that they pay be to play with computers, talk on the phone, solve puzzles, and walk the halls, that doesn't quite capture all the fine points <g>.
"Law is a bit too much high pressure for me, I trip over my tongue too much, I'm better at physical stuff."
It was altering my personality in ways I didn't like, including ways that altered close personal relationships. Nonetheless, I gained enormously from it (not counting the income).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"It was altering my personality in ways I didn't like, including ways that altered close personal relationships."
My grandfather worked as a lawyer for a while. He began refusing to take certain cases for personal reasons and the boss called him in and explained, "if you want to work as a lawyer you must do this sort of work".
So he quit. This was around 1933 and the only job he could get was working the ticket window for the railroad.
He held that job till he retired. -
Here is the issue.
when you say, Men and women are not different and that you praise women who are not like my example.
Then it is not really women you praise at all nor is it men whom you praise. Instead you praise something different from men and women, something artificial. You praise a person only so much as they are "human" as defined by Humanism, which is not the biological human, the human with gender and those unsavory ape like qualities. It is instead an ideal, unreal artificial construction a polite, politically correct, self restrained creature, a Subspecies of Homo-Civilus called Homo-liberal. Humanism does not praise reality, it creates a being that is a bundle of anxiety and neurosis, constantly concerned that anyone or anything may be deemed superior or inferior to anyone else.
This Human has such an extreme self loathing that it can't even stand to be reminded of it's own self image as weak and inferior by so much as admitting that even a statement like "bricks fall to the earth" is true, on account that it means contrary statements are false and inferior. We must accept the false and the true as Equals you know, or else we are being Nazi's or bullies or bigots of some kind.
The humanist praises not the Human, but the lowest and most base possible commonalities, mistakenly labeled Human.
If we are to truly accept and praise true humanity, we must accept a humanity that consists of Men and Women who are different. Women must be seen as I have portrayed her truthfully, and praised for being that, the Sacred Whore. And the Man the true ape like Beast, with all those "Flaws" which we see in apes and polite society tells us are "just awful" so that we must hide them away under the surface of this sexless domestication, and we must be ASHAMED of these SINs that are are true nature, and live up to the ideal of the Sinless Man who is not of earthly ape-like bestial nature, but the ideal civilized domesticated man who is from heaven.
Humanism = Christianity = Consumerism = Nihilism = Death.
Thelema is not humanism.
In Thelema women are encouraged to work her ways of wickedness and seduction, to be whores
Men likewise are encouraged to be manly and brutal to fight as brothers and to the victor go the spoils.The so called "Human" of the Humanists, are the wretched and weak that are to be stomped out of existence.
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When a person really believes something, they don't usually go on and on about it as much as you do.
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@Froclown said
"
Thelema is not humanism.
In Thelema women are encouraged to work her ways of wickedness and seduction, to be whores
Men likewise are encouraged to be manly and brutal to fight as brothers and to the victor go the spoils.The so called "Human" of the Humanists, are the wretched and weak that are to be stomped out of existence."
This is the kind of social Darwinism found only in Socio-paths and inadequate, it has Nothing to do with Thelema and everything to do with an inverted inferiority complex.
Although its arguable from the third book of Liber Legis that people should treat women like cattle and take an "every man for himself" attitude, That kind of Victorian socio-Jingoism went out with the 1940's.
My personal belief is that the third book had more to do with the two world wars and with A.C's personal life than with any general and eternal rule for life. -
@Solitarius said
"This is the kind of social Darwinism found only in Socio-paths and inadequate, it has Nothing to do with Thelema and everything to do with an inverted inferiority complex."
I thought Froclown's little essay was rather well done. The bold declaration of truth is anathema to Liberals so it is easy to understand how he can come across as a sociopath. To say that his comments "have nothing to do with Thelema" looks to be just plain wrong. From what little I have been able to learn so far, his view looks more like Thelemic Fundamentalism.
@Solitarius said
"That kind of Victorian socio-Jingoism went out with the 1940's."
Truth does go out of style with regular frequency.
I don't agree with everything Froclown says but he is more right than wrong. The humanistic pabulum that Liberals thrive on just will not do for sincere truth seekers.
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from what I've seen any kind of fundamentalism is damaging, its basically a way of lobotomising yourself and replacing thoughts with Dogma, I suppose its easier to just stick to a set of hard and fast rules, (which are open to a Huge amount of interpretation) than to actually examine the facts and come to a logical opinion.
IN the real world when someone exercises social Darwinism they are promptly destroyed by the Herd, which to me doesn't seem like a good way to facilitate ones Will, unless your suicidal, besides, the herd will destroy itself soon enough.
I wouldn't call myself a Liberal in your sense of the word, I see no reason why men should behave like animals, that's just second circuit Anal/tribal behaviour, although about 50-75% of humanity still fall into this category we're not all that unconscious of ourselves that we can only function on that level. -
@Solitarius said
"I wouldn't call myself a Liberal in your sense of the word,"
Right, as I pointed out before, most liberals will not admit that they are liberal.
@Solitarius said
"I see no reason why men should behave like animals"
Another classic. No one here has suggested doing so, have they? (Other than quoting Crowley... is that what you are referring to?) -
@Labyrinthus said
"
@Solitarius said
"I wouldn't call myself a Liberal in your sense of the word,"Right, as I pointed out before, most liberals will not admit that they are liberal.
@Solitarius said
"I see no reason why men should behave like animals"
Another classic. No one here has suggested doing so, have they? (Other than quoting Crowley... is that what you are referring to?)"I said "Liberal" in Your sense of the word, which I take to mean some kind of left wing soft-headed sense.
If you were to go and behave exactly as proscribed in chapter 3 of Liber Al how long do you think you would last?
I suppose you could try sacrificing children and eating the flesh of your enemies, and a true fundamentalist would most likely try to do just that, but it is important to take these things with a pinch of salt, (a big pinch)
From the fundamentalist viewpoint anyone who doesn't go out and behave in the hyper aggressive way advocated by the book is a liberal, it depends on what level you choose to view things from.
If you read the chapter closely it appears to be a set of instructions for Crowley himself, and besides all that, isn't following some pre-determined set of behaviours without good reason the anti-thesis of Thelema?
To me this point is what seperates a Thelemite from a Crowleyite. -
I don't know that I ever said that it was wise to follow book 3 as if it were a set of specific instructions.
What I did say was that we can't just ignore human nature, and call our substituted ideal man (Which I deem a rather pathetic creature) human nature. Which is what humanism does and then it proceeds to one by one remove from any actual human being all the qualities that make them unique and exceptional, once those are removed it continues to remove all qualities until we get down to all humans are "Just human" which is to say we are all compared on that most basic level of similarity, ie that we exist at all. Putting Humans, concepts, animals and rocks all lumped into the same category, which one must not ever be superior to any other. We must force the facts so than nothing is exceptional, that nothing has any unique ability or purpose that might in any way make it better than anything else. We must not fight or be aggressive, because the poor humanists have a delicate sensibility and we might upset his digestion. There must be no competition, we are all equal and we "deserve" to have all that we need to be happy, safe and never experience any emotional upsets.
Quoth the humanist: It upsets me to see people fighting over race and gender, we must deny that race and gender exist, we are all the same. Please stop being mean, please stop slinging mud and insults, it does so upset poor little me, who is weak and frail and can not defend myself. Oh please stop being aggressive and competitive, it reminds me of my own frailty and unworthiness to live.
That is not Thelema.
While there is a degree of relativism in Thelema the conclusion is not the same.
The humanist says, truth has a degree of relativeness, so we must accept all statements, beliefs and ideals as equal and all hold hands and sing kumbaya together as one big happy human family.Thelema seeing that there is some degree of variation in beliefs, instead proclaims, "Choose ye an Island" and "Fortify it". That is take a side any side that suits your nature, build up an arsenal and go out into the world and FIGHT as brother. Fight for the glory and honor of your chosen island of belief, if you are a man, then Men rule women drool, Go forth with into the gender war with all the misogyny your WILL can muster. If you happen to have been born a woman, Then go forth into that gender war with all the manipulation and seductive power that is at the disposal of your gender. Fight for the flag of your own WILL and the ideals than reflect it. (But always unto ME)
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@Seraph said
"This is why the are so few women in Thelema."
At least the groups that are dominated by that sort of nonsense.
I think ToT and other similar groups have less issues with demographic disparity.By the way, if the 'truth' of existence and human nature is exactly as some imagine it is, then I'm at a loss for how exactly a small group of wimpy, PC, guilt-ridden, liberals and humanists is forcing the lot of humanity to pretend to be something it is not... I think the simpler answer is that any large group that has persistent, across the board, demographic disparities is probably discriminatory or out-of-balance.
The issues with anima rejection and distorted relationships with the shadow (both of which are very common in modern western society, from what I have seen), are as clear as day to anyone who has read even a little Jung.
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People do have a way of putting up barriers
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"By the way, if the 'truth' of existence and human nature is exactly as some imagine it is, then I'm at a loss for how exactly a small group of wimpy, PC, guilt-ridden, liberals and humanists is forcing the lot of humanity to pretend to be something it is not... I think the simpler answer is that any large group that has persistent, across the board, demographic disparities is probably discriminatory or out-of-balance."
personally I think its more likely that the "truth" of it is that most humans are just as docile as those pc liberals I keep hearing about so long as they have a full trough and hay in the stable.
The Thelemic "dream" is just like the American dream, its a dream; an ideal; not something that will ever be widespread, simply because Human animals don't like change. -
Perhaps, since living your own life is a very daunting task if you're not used to the idea (I know I grew up stamping down my will for the sake of someone else's misguided idealism). But I am optimistic. If I can change, I think anyone can.
After all, if there is a better way of existing, it will become self-evident, and will be the inevitable course of humanity, in spite of setbacks. Most of these debates are just intellectual exercises anyway.
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Solitarius, 93,
You wrote:
"The Thelemic "dream" is just like the American dream, its a dream; an ideal; not something that will ever be widespread, simply because Human animals don't like change."
Since the 1950s in particular, huge amounts of American dream-style notions and capabilities have spread around the world. Simply, many, many people have more stuff.
Similarly, Thelemic ideas galore have been propagated - on sexual relationships, human rights (in the sense of such rights PERMITTING people to express their True Wills more freely, without harsh legal consequences), wider acceptance of the notion of pursuing mystical ideas, or the availability of ways, Eastern & Western, to pursue same. And so on. Maybe the animal side of humans doesn't change a lot, but the more interesting bits of human consciousness are in constant flux, and progressively more open to greater change. The fact that most commentators (blogers, journalists, pundits of all stripes) write mostly about what freaks them out, not what is improving, just establishes the existence of an enduring stratum of morose paranoia.
Give the Aeon what it needs - a century or two to re-shape human existence and consciousness.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93
Most of the freedoms we in the west enjoy are limited to the west, you wouldn't go to the middle east and talk about religious freedom unless you wanted to wind up in prison.
It may be true that Humanity is slowly waking up from its Aeon old sleep, I hope so, but the pessimist in me sees only dumb people being exploited by richer dumb people who are in no hurry to wake anybody up to the fact.
And what does more stuff give us? within limits, more tools to express ourselves is fine, but (myself included) the tendency is to become addicted to playing games or otherwise hypnotise ourselves with toys, fast cars, wide screen TV's, crap. they don't need to subdue the masses any more, we do it for them.For what its worth I don't think it really matters in the long run, so long as our little bit of consciousness of a planet survives long enough to learn to regulate itself rather than destroy itself through greed and the inability to control it's baser urges.
And if not, there are other worlds than this.93 93/93
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93,
Too much stuff can be a problem. Some stuff is good to have.
I've had some very interesting conversations in the Middle East about religious freedom. We kept our voices low, but people there are nowhere near as uptight about this topic as we keep being told. Most actually enjoy private debate.
Pessimism was the disease of the 20th Century. Thelema is the cure. Our problem is, we want it all to change now, or at least soon. But Thelema puts history in the context of aeons, not years. I don't think we give that notion much thought, especially if we're focused on the widescreen TV and such. I ditched my TV some years ago. It was a small move in the direction of not being so controlled. Now, if I can kick my addiction to online news.....
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Too much stuff can be a problem. Some stuff is good to have.
I've had some very interesting conversations in the Middle East about religious freedom. We kept our voices low, but people there are nowhere near as uptight about this topic as we keep being told. Most actually enjoy private debate.
Pessimism was the disease of the 20th Century. Thelema is the cure. Our problem is, we want it all to change now, or at least soon. But Thelema puts history in the context of aeons, not years. I don't think we give that notion much thought, especially if we're focused on the widescreen TV and such. I ditched my TV some years ago. It was a small move in the direction of not being so controlled. Now, if I can kick my addiction to online news.....
93 93/93,
Edward"93
I'll go with you on both those.
Having been in the middle east myself I found that people out there are pretty normal in general, there are still dick-heads, and people who will try to kill you for a few dollars, but there are also cool people.I can well remember when I was posted in Basrah, me and my Corporal spent a lot of time fishing in the shat-al-arab canal and we used to chat to a couple of Iraqi blokes who were working on site, because we were in civilian clothing and unarmed a lot of the time they didn't treat us like Soldiers, but like humans, and we used to chat with them about all sorts of things, really cool people, and they used to get fishing bait for us when they went out because we were more or less stuck on the base.
I know what you mean about pessimism, I'm prone to it myself, that's why I don't watch a lot of TV, A friend of mine comes from Hungary and he says he's much happier in England because he doesn't have a clue what's going on in the world as he doesn't watch the news or scan headlines as he would in his native language.
For myself I never had a TV as I hate the damned things, I rarely listen to radio either.93 93/93
