Star Ruby
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@Her said
"Although it's not specified in the ritual instructions what is your personal opinion on turning to the appropriate quarters, as per Reguli, when performing the NOX signs? Some people suggest doing this (and I practice it this way), while others insist that the signs should all be made facing east. "
We know exactly how that was to be performed, and that's not part of it. (Isn't this, by now general information?
)"Ok it's like this. Basically isn't there a kind of conflict of interests between the Star Ruby and the LBRP. The attributions and the natures of the guardians are totally different in each ritual. So whould it be better not to practice these two rituals during the same practice period."
Yeah. Don't mix them. They're different universes.
"Because the LBRP is already an established part of my ritual practice I was thinking of opening a practice session with either the Star Ruby or the LBRP and then closing a practice with the opposite."
(Let's see, how can I put this?)
I wouldn't.
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i personally see the signs of NOX creating the word YHShVH, and i see it as the father and mother are united as well as son and daughter and through this you become impregnated with a child RHK.
what do you think of this, am i way way off??
also i feel right after i do the final NOX sign, like i am completely on another level. like the whole ritual is building me spiritually up and up then after that NOX sign i am push over to the next level. the best way i can explain it is like this:
the 1st cross is like malkuth, then the 4 pentagrams and visualizations of the guardians is like building me up to tiphareth, then the signs build me up to the abyss, as soon as i do the final NOX sign i cross the abyss and i am in a who other level, and it is such a bigger change then all the other events in the ritual. when i am doing the "pro mou.." i feel like i am in the valley of the pyrimids, and with nuit.
of course all this is all symbolic and i dont think i am completing all these AA grades and getting the expereience of them, i just feel its kinda symbolic of all this, just on a much much much smaller level. if this makes since at all?
basically i feel myself climbing up the tree within my present sephiroth.
do you think i should not be seeing it this way, and just look at it as a plain and simple banishing ritual? i mean i see it as banishing, but i also see it as symbolis for spiritual experiences i hope to one day have.
thanks
93s
Gunner
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@Jim Eshelman said
"We know exactly how that was to be performed, and that's not part of it. (Isn't this, by now general information?
)"You're kidding me, right?
Every last detail of the Star Ruby and it's correct performance may well be "general information" within the confines of certain magical orders. But for the unwashed masses there is nothing on or about this ritual at all. You basically have Crowley saying zip in the Book of Lies and a single comment in MTP. And that's it!!!!It's not a surprise that so few people practice this ritual. Because no one has a clue what it's about.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yeah. Don't mix them. They're different universes."
So I guess I've got to ask, what's the point of this ritual if it can't play with all the other kids?
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Details were published in Black Pearl No. 5 (first part of a three-part series on The Star Ruby). I believe the part you are asking about is the following (done facing East after you've returned to the center) - the parts in bold are said:
"The exact ritual method is as follows. Say:
N. (give the Sign of Puer, 6=5, corresponding to Geburah)
O. (give the Sign of Vir, 7=4, corresponding to Chesed)
(With a brief pause of silence, give the Sign of Puella = the first sign of the Babe of the Abyss)
X. (give the Sign of Mulier = the second sign of the Babe of the Abyss)
NOX â IO PAN (Give the Sign of Mater Triumphans, 8=3, corresponding to Binah)" -
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Thanks Jim. That's very helpful.
It looks I've been doing it wrong all this time. No surprises there. That's what happens sometimes when your flying alone in the dark.
A while ago I was told, in no uncertain terms by a member of the O.T.O, that the correct order of the signs was Puella, Puer, Vir, Mulier, Mater Triumphans. Obviously not.
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@Her said
"A while ago I was told, in no uncertain terms by a member of the O.T.O, that the correct order of the signs was Puella, Puer, Vir, Mulier, Mater Triumphans. Obviously not.
"And exactly why would their membership in O.T.O. give them any particular knowledge on the subject? Hmm?
You're welcome.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"And exactly why would their membership in O.T.O. give them any particular knowledge on the subject? Hmm?"
Well the argument was that they had access to inside information that I did not. It's a little hard to argue against that one.
This is where I have become a little frustrated. Crowley's comments on many of his rituals are so sparse that a lot of the information "out there" is nothing more than personal interpretation. For example, Lon Milo DuQuette in his book The Magick of Thelema (reprinted as the Magick of Aleister Crowley) says that the NOX signs used in the Star Ruby does not include the sign Mater Triumphans. He's supposedly been doing this stuff since the 70's and is considered to be something of an authority.!!! So if he's clueless, what hope does anyone else have?
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@Her said
"Well the argument was that they had access to inside information that I did not. It's a little hard to argue against that one.
"It doesn't even match the "inside information" the O.T.O. published from its archives a few years ago. See more below.
"This is where I have become a little frustrated. Crowley's comments on many of his rituals are so sparse that a lot of the information "out there" is nothing more than personal interpretation."
Having devoted several decades of my life thus far to making this sort of information available through one or another medium, I'm occasionally hard pressed to be sympathetic because we have explicit channels for training. This sort of thing is communicated through formal training structures in more than one Order (in addition to the public classes, publishing, etc. I've done over the years). My (possibly insufficiently sympathetic) answer is that this sort of thing was never intended to be taught through books but, rather, as part of formal paths of initiation.
FWIW, Star Ruby isn't part of the formal instruction in Temple of Thelema's First Order or even the earliest part of its Second Order. It will be seen from time to time, but has nothing to do with the training structure until pretty far along. On the other hand, my three-part article on Star Ruby was made available to anyone at all through Black Pearl beginning in 1999, so we aren't hording the information.
Moral of the story: Submit an application and go through the training step by step!
(Or, hang out here and ask questions.)Now, concerning the "inside information" available to your acquaintance: In the O.T.O.'s edition of Book 4, a letter is quoted from Crowley to C.S. Jones from December 1916. It pertains slightly more to the Star Sapphire than to the Star Ruby (hence a minor language difference), but the core instruction is there. He wrote:
"The 6=5 [i.e., Puer] is the N. 7=4 [i.e., Vir] O. Puella is a hesitation in between. Babalon [i.e., Mulier] is the X. After giving it say N.O.X., Nox, the night of Pan! Close with 8=3 sign [Mater Triumphans]."
Since the Star Ruby script specifically says the paian is "Io Pan," this substitutes for the "N.O.X., the night of Pan!" of the Star Sapphire.
BTW - FWIW - though this wasn't published until 1994, and though I never had (nor had knowledge of) that letter, a T.'.O.'.T.'. instruction for the 7° gave this same exact information by 1991-92. Any conclusions about that are left to you.
Regarding how many signs are used in the middle: Note that the Star Ruby - Liber XXV - consists of 5 parts, each of which has 5 parts provided that 5 signs are used in the middle.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"It doesn't even match the "inside information" the O.T.O. published from its archives a few years ago."
This is the whole point. There are so many "supposed" authorities out there with different opinions on this subject and many others. And each one of them is correct of course!
The would be student may as well just flip a coin when choosing between them.@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm occasionally hard pressed to be sympathetic"
I wasn't looking for sympathy Jim or expecting to get any either. Roll with the punches huh?
@Jim Eshelman said
" Moral of the story: Submit an application and go through the training step by step!
(Or, hang out here and ask questions.)"Thanks for the moral Jim. I guess my current incarnation is a complete waste of time.
I might as well kill myself now and hope and pray that I have the good fortune to be reincarnated in the vacinity of a branch of the Temple of Thelema in the near future. (I'm located in the UK by the way. Which is obviously part of my bad karma. )Pardon the sarcasm Jim. I have a bit of a sense of humour.
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by the way on this HERU::
"Lon Milo DuQuette in his book The Magick of Thelema (reprinted as the Magick of Aleister Crowley) says that the NOX signs used in the Star Ruby does not include the sign Mater Triumphans. He's supposedly been doing this stuff since the 70's and is considered to be something of an authority.!!! So if he's clueless, what hope does anyone else have? "
i asked lon about this about a year ago, why isnt mater triumphans included in star ruby, he said on its just a misprint. i said and how many times has this book been reprinted with out corrections, he quickly changed the subject.
i did star ruby for like 2 years before being corrected, and thats acually kinda a funny story too. i was at an OTO meeting where the electorial college president was there and offered to banish, and later he asked me when we were talking why i didnt do mater triumphans. and i was like what where does it say that is apart of the ritual?
though i love duquettes writings, you should study crowleys works much more than his.
93s
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@bethata418 said
"i asked lon about this about a year ago, why isnt mater triumphans included in star ruby, he said on its just a misprint."
Actually I think that's how the Star Ruby was being taught by a number of people back in the early 90's and quite possibly earlier. See Gerald del Campo's book, New Aeon Magick,(published 1994) where he treats the Star Ruby in exactly the same manner as DuQuette.
I should also add that Gerald del Campo's book was republished by Luxor Press in 2000. In this newer, corrected, expanded, and revised edition the Star Ruby has remained the same as it was in the 1994 edition.
@bethata418 said
"though i love duquettes writings, you should study crowleys works much more than his."
Quite correct. But I would assume that both DuQuette and Campo studied Crowley's works too and yet they still came to an "apparently" incorrect conclusion. Draw your own conclusions from that. Being one of the "profane" it would be improper for me to comment further.
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understand but duquette saud there was nothign to it, just a simple mistake:(
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Gunner
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@bethata418 said
"understand but duquette saud there was nothign to it, just a simple mistake:("
That's my point exactly. That knowledgeable and experienced students can study Crowley's works and still come to mistaken and incorrect conclusions says a lot.
Crowley is never very clear about the NOX signs anywhere. The only place where he is explicit about them is in private letters to private students, like Achad. And even then he makes changes and alterations. Telling one student one thing, and then telling something different to another student. Is it any wonder then that there are differences of opinon on this subject?
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No, and it is frustrating to not understand. Sort of like grabbing jello. At the same time, maybe it is contradictory because the concepts are not simple and range from person to person, from situation to situation. I am thinking of the Bible at this time. You get a commandment of "Thou shalt not kill" from a murderer (Moses) who sets about destroying all kinds of tribes around him and taking their land. I could name a dozen of contradictions off the top of my head.
It is very frustrating to go ahead on a path and have different directions from the person who has gone before.
In L.V.X.,
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@Chris Hanlon said
"Sort of like grabbing jello."
That's a very good metaphor.
The NOX signs are the product of Crowley, so it really doesn't help matters that he was never quite clear about their use. Also he seems to have been experimenting with them as went along. Changing their order from time to time. And to top it, much of this never made it into his published works. So when you're trying to figure it all out from the material that is in print it feels like you're trying to put an incomplete jigsaw puzzle together, and even worse , everyone has a different opinion of how the pieces fit together.
The rituals written by Crowley that use the NOX signs don't shed much light on this issue either because they are either a little ambiguous or they differ with regard to the signs. The Star Ruby simply says: "retire to the centre and raise thy voice in the Paian, with the words IO PAN, and the signs of N.O.X." That can, and indeed is, interpreted in many different ways. We have Jim's answer above, which coincides with a letter from Crowley to Achad. There are also suggestions that link the NOX signs with the formula of IHVH. They transpose the position of the sign Puella within the scheme, but it still spells NOX because Puella doesn't correspond to a letter of NOX.
I find David Cherubim's idea of the NOX signs to make sense in connection with this specific order:
"IO PAN has 5 letters and thus corresponds with the Pentagram. Qabalistically, IO PAN is Yod-Ayin Peh-Nun = 210 = N.O.X. or Nun-Ayin-Tzaddi. N.O.X. is the Night of Pan and the Word of Hoor.
The Signs of N.O.X. are five: Puella (Girl), Puer (Boy), Vir (Man), Mulier (Woman), and Mater Triumphans (Triumphant Mother). Note the connection of these five Signs with the Tree of Life: Puella = Malkuth, Puer = Yesod, Vir = Tiphareth, Mulier = The Abyss, and Mater Triumphans = Binah. This order of the Signs thus represents the formula of crossing and transcending the Abyss by way of the Middle Pillar of Initiation.
The N.O.X. Signs are done around the Circle of the Temple. N.O.X., the "Night" of Pan = Nuit = The Circumference. Whereas the L.V.X. Signs are done in the Centre of the Temple. L.V.X., the "Light" of the Gnosis = Hadit = The Centre."
Oddly enough this same scheme is followed in Liber V vel Reguli. But here again we have differences of opinion. Somewhere on this forum Jim put forward his opinion that Reguli is a kind of trap planted by Crowley himself. So if we follow Jim's opinion this sequence of the NOX signs might be suspect.
(I'm still looking for the place that Crowley mentions this "trap". All I've been able to find is a reference to "something" being included in The Book of Lies as an act of spite. But Reguli is not in the Book of Lies.)On the other hand Lon Milo DuQuette sings the praises of Reguli, as does Rodney Orpheus in his book, ABRAHADABRA.
The same material + different people = different opinions. -
Excuse a slight digression, but isn't that frustration the point which makes you keep going on your own?
There are three main reasons I can think of for why a "leader" can have the same vices SHe teaches others to stay away from:
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SHe's too distracted with thinking up the best possible rules for others to follow to be able to focus on doing what's "right".
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SHe's human too, which forms a connection between hir and hir followers to make them see how and why in a clearer light.
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There's more to life than being perfect. The only thing the "leader" says is "do this and things will work out for you. Nobody said I was perfect, I'm just aware. It's YOUR life, not mine. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Peace and love."
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@Her said
"The NOX signs are the product of Crowley, so it really doesn't help matters that he was never quite clear about their use. Also he seems to have been experimenting with them as went along. Changing their order from time to time. And to top it, much of this never made it into his published works. So when you're trying to figure it all out from the material that is in print it feels like you're trying to put an incomplete jigsaw puzzle together, and even worse , everyone has a different opinion of how the pieces fit together.
"I have his personal workbook during the years he was developing them. (Most or all of the info from that made it into footnotes in HB's Book 4 edition.) They key thing is that they are the A.'.A.'. Grade signs for 6=5 through 8=3 - that has stayed consistent. Ultimately, that's the only "order" for them, though they are used in different ways in different rituals.
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@Malaclypse said
"3) There's more to life than being perfect. The only thing the "leader" says is "do this and things will work out for you. Nobody said I was perfect, I'm just aware. It's YOUR life, not mine. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Peace and love.""
I like this.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"They key thing is that they are the A.'.A.'. Grade signs for 6=5 through 8=3 - that has stayed consistent. Ultimately, that's the only "order" for them, though they are used in different ways in different rituals."
Well that's sorted then. But can anyone explain why the grade of Babe of the Abyss / Daath has two signs? Mullier and Puella? Is it some sort of Babalon - Virgin / Whore symbolism?
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@Her said
"But can anyone explain why the grade of Babe of the Abyss / Daath has two signs? Mullier and Puella? Is it some sort of Babalon - Virgin / Whore symbolism?"
The Zero grade of each of the three Orders has two signs.
0=0, the Zero of the First Order (in the Outer) and the Outer College (in the Inner), has two signs, the Sign of the Enterer and the Sign of Silence.
Dominus Liminis (the Portal Degree of the old Order) - 4=7 Major - is the Zero of the Second Order (in the Outer) and of the Inner College (in the Inner). It has two signs, the Sign of the Opening of the Veil and the Sign of the Closing of the Veil.
It is, therefore, no surprise to me that Babe of the Abyss - 7=4 Major - the Zero of the Third Order - has two signs. In fact, they seem to me to be their own sort of Closed Veil and Opened Veil pair, except that in this case the veil is that of Isis. (Think of it as Da'ath - from Ruach - and Da'ath opened - from Neshamah.)
As a personal technique, I've viewed these as, respectively, an East-West (forward-backward) pair of signs, then a North-South pair (left-right), then an up-down (actually, down-up) pair - defining three intersecting axes at a common point where I reside. I've sometimes used this set ceremonially for these purposes.