Tzaddi is not the Star
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
Heru, also:
Crowley's post-CCXX New Comment:The New Comment (c. 1921) chap. 1 line 57 wrote:Tzaddi is the letter of The Emperor, the Trump IV, and He is the Star, the Trump XVII. Aquarius and Aries are therefore counterchanged, revolving on the pivot of Pisces, just as, in the Trumps VIII and XI, Leo and Libra do about Virgo. This last revelation makes our Tarot attributions sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical.
So Crowley thinks the zodiac atributtions have to be counterchanged too? That would be the same change as Lust and Adjustment.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Takamba said
"It seems rather simple to me, I don't understand the argument against it. Here's what I'm seeing (the blue arrows represent the order of the signs and numbers, the red arrows show the order of the letters). This seems quite beautiful to me."
Take a second look. Since when did the order of the zodiac go from Cancer to Libra or from Leo to Scorpio?
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Her said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Oh, I see: You wanted a literal zodiacal sequence all the way through the 12. Yeah, you're right, I don't think it's important that it isn't quite that."How so? In the Book of Thoth (p.9-10) Crowley claims the double loop in the zodiac is the "most convincing evidence possible that the Book of the Law is a genuine message from the Secret Chiefs.""
<sigh> We're just going in loops, here, so I'm probably about ready to stop responding.
He just had the wrong loop. It isn't in the zodiac, it'/s in the relationship of the trump numbers to the Hebrew letters. The Book of Thoth is the worst-proofread major work Crowley ever wrote. There are numerous errors, little slips and goofs all the way through it. The essential work is sound - it just never had an editor or even solid proofreading.
"The diagram on page 11 really does show a double loop in the zodiac. Unfortunately it messes up the Hebrew letter and card sequences."
Yes. It's a goof. The final result, however you draw it, has to reflect (the zodiacal parts of) the following table:
0 -- The Fool -- Air -- Alef
1 -- The Magus -- Mercury -- Beyth
2 -- The Priestess -- Moon -- Gimel
3 -- The Empress -- Venus -- Daleth
4 -- The Emperor -- Aries -- Tzaddiy
5 -- The Hierophant -- Taurus -- Vav
6 -- The Lovers -- Gemini -- Zayin
7 -- The Chariot -- Cancer -- Cheyth
8 -- Adjustment -- Libra -- Lamed
9 -- The Hermit -- Virgo -- Yod
10 -- Fortune -- Jupiter -- Kaf
11 -- Lust -- Leo -- Teyth
12 -- The Hanged Man -- Water -- Meym
13 -- Death -- Scorpio -- Noon
14 -- Art -- Sagittarius -- Samekh
15 -- The Devil -- Capricorn -- A'ayin
16 -- The Tower -- Mars -- Peh
17 -- The Star -- Aquarius -- Hé
18 -- The Moon -- Pisces -- Qof
19 -- The Sun -- Sun -- Reysh
20 -- The Æon -- Fire -- Shiyn
21 -- The Universe -- Saturn -- Tav"The diagram that Gnosomai Emauton posted is in reality not much different from Crowley's. It gets the Hebrew letters and card sequence right but at the expense of the zodiac. It's just an inverse image of Crowley's diagram but with the same fundamental flaw. It's the exact same data set just displayed in a different way."
It correctly portrays the pattern, which (despite that badly worded phrase in The Book of Thoth) is about the Tarot trump numbers and the Hebrew letters.
"The fact of the matter is that it is not possible to have perfect symmetry in all three sequences"
Exactly! That's what I've said all along. The one that is not rigorously mapped is the zodiac (though, even there, the essential pattern is evident).
@Aleister Crowley said
"For "The Star" is referred to Aquarius in the Zodiac, and "The Emperor' to Aries. Now Aries and Aquarius are on each side of Pisces, just as Leo and Libra are on each side of Virgo; that is to say, the correction in the Book of the Law gives a perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution, just as if a loop were formed at one end of the ellipse to correspond exactly with the existing loop at the other end."
Yes, as you've correctly quoted before. But it's wrong (as I've said before). It's bad proofreading (though it does make his broad point well enough.)
"The problem with the above statement is that the "correction in the Book of the Law" only mentions cards and letters."
Yes, because that's what's actually looping rigorously.
"But according to Crowley this 'correction' also has a knock on effect on the zodiac as well."
Yes, his statement is sloppily composed.
"But this would only be true if the IV-XVII swap exactly matched the VIII-XI swap. It's a very simple point of logic proven by both diagrams."
Your "simple point of logic" collapses when one of its veiled premises collapses: You are presuming that the passage in The Book of Thoth is correctly written. It isn't. You are building an argument on an invalid premise.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Her said
"
@Takamba said
"It seems rather simple to me, I don't understand the argument against it. Here's what I'm seeing (the blue arrows represent the order of the signs and numbers, the red arrows show the order of the letters). This seems quite beautiful to me."Take a second look. Since when did the order of the zodiac go from Cancer to Libra or from Leo to Scorpio?
"It doesn't, you're looking at the wrong arrows. It goes from Leo to Virgo and Libra to Scorpio (red arrows the Zodiac, blue arrows the letters). It's a symmetry of two different motions. You look again.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Takamba said
"
@Her said
"
@Takamba said
"It seems rather simple to me, I don't understand the argument against it. Here's what I'm seeing (the blue arrows represent the order of the signs and numbers, the red arrows show the order of the letters). This seems quite beautiful to me."Take a second look. Since when did the order of the zodiac go from Cancer to Libra or from Leo to Scorpio?
"It doesn't, you're looking at the wrong arrows. It goes from Leo to Virgo and Libra to Scorpio (red arrows the Zodiac, blue arrows the letters). It's a symmetry of two different motions. You look again."
Take another look now that you've changed your mind about the arrows. You've simply swapped one problem for another. On the red arrows you've now actually got a double loop around Virgo. Great!
But at the other end you've got a mess. Capricorn going to Aries!
And Aquarius going to Taurus. -
I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Jim Eshelman said
"<sigh> We're just going in loops, here, so I'm probably about ready to stop responding."
Yeah, I know. Most of the points you repeat I know but some new things/questions pop out sometimes.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Exactly! That's what I've said all along. The one that is not rigorously mapped is the zodiac (though, even there, the essential pattern is evident)."
I would not call that a pattern because it does not repeat - it's just a zodiac circle crippled at 1 point.
@Her said
" But this would only be true if the IV-XVII swap exactly matched the VIII-XI swap. It's a very simple point of logic proven by both diagrams."
@Jim Eshelman said
"Your "simple point of logic" collapses when one of its veiled premises collapses: You are presuming that the passage in The Book of Thoth is correctly written. It isn't. You are building an argument on an invalid premise."
I would say you, Jim, are building an argument on an invalid premise because (see my post from before) Crowley's post-CCXX The New Comment (c. 1921) chap. 1 line 57 talks in same words about the topic as The Book of Thoth. They both can't be wrong can they? Crowley even tells us that he changed not only the letters but the zodiac signs too making 4 Tzaddi Aquarius The Emperor, 17 He Aries The Star. I got the same in my 2007 Book of Thoth print on page 278.
Sorry if I'm disturbing someone, I am just trying to make factual arguments in the discussion and see what are others factual arguments.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Her said
"Take another look now that you've changed your mind about the arrows. You've simply swapped one problem for another. On the red arrows you've now actually got a double loop around Virgo. Great!
But at the other end you've got a mess. Capricorn going to Aries! And Aquarius going to Taurus. "Oops, haste makes waste. Here's the corrected diagram (Gnosomai's design with my arrows)
https://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q648/Takamba93/TarotDoubleLoop_zps88d03abc.jpg
Below is using the order Crowley drew them in
https://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q648/Takamba93/CrowleysTarotDoubleLoop_zps732a6950.jpg
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Modes said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Exactly! That's what I've said all along. The one that is not rigorously mapped is the zodiac (though, even there, the essential pattern is evident)."I would not call that a pattern because it does not repeat - it's just a zodiac circle crippled at 1 point."
You can't say it doesn't have a pattern just because it has a different pattern than the one you want to see. (And you're only using one half of your cerebral cortex. Get the right hemisphere in play. Don't be so left-sided.)
"I would say you, Jim, are building an argument on an invalid premise"
Start with the attributions (see table in my last post). Then see what patterns exist in them.
"I got the same in my 2007 Book of Thoth print on page 278."
The Book of Thoth is not reedited when it is republished. None of the many small errors have ever been fixed.
"Sorry if I'm disturbing someone, I am just trying to make factual arguments in the discussion and see what are /others factual arguments."
I'm rather lost on what your goal is. I thought it was to understand the pattern. It seems, instead, that you are trying to prove some position of your own instead.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
"Sorry if I'm disturbing someone, I am just trying to make factual arguments in the discussion and see what are /others factual arguments."
@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm rather lost on what your goal is. I thought it was to understand the pattern. It seems, instead, that you are trying to prove some position of your own instead."
I think I understand now the pattern you are trying to show/advocate but I can't see enough factual arguments for me to endorse it myself. I don't have a position myself - I just like to compare/discuss/understand various positions on the topic. Thanks for your help.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
-
I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
Found it. From the Zohar.
"26. Subsequently, the letter Tzadik appeared before the Creator and said: “Master of the world, You should create the world with me, for Tzadikim (the righteous) are marked by me. You, who is called a Tzadik (righteous one), are also recorded within me, for You are righteous and You love righteousness. Therefore, my properties are suitable to create the world by.”
The Creator answered: “Tzadik, you are truly righteous, but you must remain concealed and not be revealed to the extent required were the world to be created by you, so as to not give the world an excuse.” The concealment of the letter Tzadik is necessary, for first came the letter Nun, which was then joined by the letter Yod from the Creator’s Holy Name Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey (HaVaYaH), who stood above it as a mark of the bond between the Creator and His creations, mounted the letter Nun and joined it on its right hand side, thereby creating the letter Tzadik."
It's... not as suggestive as I thought it was, but somebody tried to make the point once, and it stuck with me.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
Aion, are you sure you aren't thinking of the same remark about Tzaddiy?
Or maybe the paragraph on Heh in 32vPaths of Wisdom? I'm not remembering quote but recall tone as similar.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
Aion, now that I'm not commuting and can look something up... I wonder if you were remembering the tone (more than the specific language) of the paragraph on Hé from The 32 Paths of Wisdom. It translates as follows:
@32PW on H said
"The Fifteenth Path is called the Constituting Consciousness, because it constitutes the Substance of Creation in pure darkness. According to masters of contemplation, this is that darkness referred to in Scripture, “and thick darkness its swaddling band.”"
The phrase I translated “pure darkness” is arafeley tahor. Kaplan, who translated it “Glooms of Purity,” remarked that this expression is found in the Musaf service for Rash Hashanah at the beginning of Shofrot, relating to the revelation at Sinai. Arafeley comes from a similar word meaning “the darkness of clouds” or “thick clouds;” hence Kaplan’s “gloom.” Tahor, “pure” (=220), is the name the mode of consciousness attributed to Y’sod.
"Masters of contemplation" likely means those that have mastered dhyana, and certainly no one without this capacity is likely to be able to perceive the condition described.
The closing phrase. “thick darkness its swaddling band,” is a direct quote from Job 38:9, va-arafel ḥathoollatho.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Aion, are you sure you aren't thinking of the same remark about Tzaddiy?"
I'm not sure why that version I cut and pasted uses "Tzadik" with the k on the end. But, yes, I'm referring to the letter.
Thanks for the quote from 32 Paths of Wisdom as well.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
I wasn't worried about the K. You said you were looking for a quote on Hé being hidden, and I was asking if maybe you meant the passage I referenced about Tzaddiy being hidden (from the Zohar, in the story of how Alef got to be the first letter of the alphabet).
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Aion, are you sure you aren't thinking of the same remark about Tzaddiy?"
Yes, that's the one. I think maybe you missed where I quoted it above your post. It's the first post after the page break, so.. Unless I'm completely missing your intent.
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
-
I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
I am fascinated that this thread has had over 80,000 views!
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?
@Jim Eshelman said
"I am fascinated that this thread has had over 80,000 views!"
I imagine the subject matter is quite a search-bot magnet. It's also quite a long thread, which means many of us have viewed it again and again and again.
I see it as 80,666 views. 
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I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.
Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."
To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:
The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.
So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.
Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?