when to banish? and how??
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Heru,
I get the situation now. You are right. If no one can know exactly how something was said, how can you pronounce it correctly for rites that you are doing? If you are saying it incorrectly, the wrong tones or whatever, then how can it work?
However, as Jim said, the only thing that matters is if the rites do work. Jim says that they do.
Get your frustration, now.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
93
"Hebrew isn't just the language of a bunch of Semitic wondering tribes - it is the thing which they (having no other language to use) say was given to humanity by angels. I truly believe it is THE master code hard-wired into the human physical vehicle - the pattern of which is inherited from generation to generation - and which reflects the capacity of the human nervous system etc. to sustain all specific modes and levels of consciuosness accessible to us.
Only Sanskrit has shown the potential of being anything close in its direct power to move energy, shift consciousness, make changes, etc. One day I hope to have the time to investigate the relationship of the two more intimately"
Where, then would that other angelic tongue, Enochian, fit in this scheme?
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Don't assume that Hebrew has anything per se to do with Judaism or its religion. (It does, but don't assume it does.
Don't carry around that assumption unless it's relevant to you somehow.) Think of it (for example) simply as some master direct-access code to every level of the human psyche hard-wired into our DNA"I think I'm beginning to understand what are you are saying here Jim. But would it be more accurate to say that the underlying structure, or the meta-principles behind Hebrew, are hard-wired into DNA. What we see as Hebrew itself is a concrete representation and external expression of these abstract, genetic principles.
@Jim Eshelman said
" (imagine implants from space aliens if it helps! LOL)."
I seriously doubt that would work for me.
Just going back to the original theme of this thread. Would it be correct to assume that the Liber O material should be mastered and perfected, in all it's variations, before any attempt is made to practice the Star Ruby? I'm basing my assumption on the fact that Liber O is assigned to the grade of Neophyte A.'.A.'., and your mention of Thelema only being introduced at the Grade of Zelator.
There's also this quote from The Constitution of the Order of Thelemites that has sprung to mind as possible confirmation:
"All Zelators shall use the daily invocations given in Liber CC, the Rituals of Liber XXV, Liber XXXVI, and Liber XLIV, and the Will before meat, as taught them in their initiation."
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@Her said
"I think I'm beginning to understand what are you are saying here Jim. But would it be more accurate to say that the underlying structure, or the meta-principles behind Hebrew, are hard-wired into DNA. What we see as Hebrew itself is a concrete representation and external expression of these abstract, genetic principles."
I don't object to that, but I suspect it's far more specific than that - that the shapes of the letters, the kinesthetic feel of making them, the exact number and patterns of them (from which the Tree of Life arises, etc.) - that all this sort of thing (in a way that applies uniquely to the Hebrew alphabet and to no other known alphabet) is what's hard-wired into us.
"Just going back to the original theme of this thread. Would it be correct to assume that the Liber O material should be mastered and perfected, in all it's variations, before any attempt is made to practice the Star Ruby? I'm basing my assumption on the fact that Liber O is assigned to the grade of Neophyte A.'.A.'., and your mention of Thelema only being introduced at the Grade of Zelator."
I wouldn't make that determination for someone else a priori or generally. (And, as of 1919, both Liber L. and the various Class E documents were rolled into the Probationer syllabus.)
But, from personal experience, I'd certainly recommending long practice and deep familiarity with the Lesser Pentagram Ritual as preliminary to later adaptations of it.
"There's also this quote from The Constitution of the Order of Thelemites that has sprung to mind as possible confirmation:
"All Zelators shall use the daily invocations given in Liber CC, the Rituals of Liber XXV, Liber XXXVI, and Liber XLIV, and the Will before meat, as taught them in their initiation."
"Remember, though, that in the Order of Thelemites, "Zelator" doesn't mean what it means in A.'.A.'. - its the title for any person who walks off the street, signs a pledge form, and is accepted as a member.
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Hm, about that hardwiring thing you talk about. It's interesting how alike chromosomes are to Hebrew letters. Those things are structures which produce crystallization at certain latitudes of fixed transformation, or however one puts it into fitting terms (hope you know what I mean). Synchronizing the thoughts with a letter that is so close to the "crystallized" (matterized) level by resonance seems like one of the best ways to create changes in the body and also learn a great deal in the process by the combination of visualization and vocalization. Wow! Magick is SO COOL! Thanks for the inspiration Jim!
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Jim, or anyone else initiated enough? Can you confirm if the hard-wire thing has anything to do with chromosomes, or how it otherwise is connected to something like it?
I thought about that some more and it seems like this to me (and I would very much like confirmation/correction 
The subconscious talks in symbols and not rational arguments, because it has more to do with the hardware than the software (synapses, of course), as e.g. our chromosomes. Those are, as far as I understand it, aligned so as to give the genes affinity to attract/enhance/produce/mimic/etc. certain specific qualities, like having blue eyes (which must have something to do with a certain frequency which the particles manifesting into blue eyes spins at, as with everything else in nature), or seeing blue or red colour rather than green or brown, and so on.
Looking at it from this perspective, it seems that if the alignment of the particular ideas, which the genes thus represent, can be manipulated by attracting other ideas at the same level*, like looking at a Hebrew letter which has the exact same appearance as the alignment of the chromosome producing a certain type of colour or sound in our consciousness, then I think it's easy to hack and reprogram the Self, and I think I understand how much of magick works, if this is correct.The subconscious has to do with hardware, but there's of course no digital limit between soft- and hardware, but analogous as with everything else, but roughly speaking I mean. At a critical point, the pattern of the organism (which I presently like to think of as the resonance that (re)generates the DNA) reaches complexity enough to gain perspective in what we call Assiah, or matter space-time with its thermodynamic laws of fluctuation, it forms consciousness and the rational process begins to spread a new pattern of divination, forming the personality...
I added this last part to really be as clear as I can about where I'm coming from.- Level of solidarity between external stimuli and internal hardware.
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@Malaclypse said
"Jim, or anyone else initiated enough? Can you confirm if the hard-wire thing has anything to do with chromosomes, or how it otherwise is connected to something like it?"
Remember that we don't have physical confirmation of anything here - but, if it is truly something conveyed from generation to generation, then it must (ultimately) be chromosomal, right?
Those 23 pairs have long interested me.
PS - Loved the hardware/software analogy.
PSS - Did you ever notice that "DNA" has three of the four letters of Adonai (ADNY)? The only thing missing is the Yod - the will - the I. (Just like Adam, ADM, is DM, "blood," with breath (A) added.)
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PS - I think it's OK for me to add that the Second Degree ceremony of Aspirants to Light has a section dramatizing the Qabalistic relationship of the 23 chromosome pairs to the inherent Mysteries passed from generation to generation.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Remember that we don't have physical confirmation of anything here - but, if it is truly something conveyed from generation to generation, then it must (ultimately) be chromosomal, right?"
Yes, I can't disagree with that, of course. But I am very curious about where or how these things have come to anyone's knowledge, because, being a Westerner programmed human as I am, if there is no physical evidence, how have the analogies been extracted? I mean that as in, I don't understand specifically how, not saying I can't believe it. Because it must be deeeeeeep indeed to get to the level of genetic encoding from the level of consciousness, and to then extrapolate something that will be meaningful at the latter level... seems incomprehensible from my present pov.
Or by the way, everything having to do with perspective is overcome if it's looked at from a great enough distance, so if the ego isn't the end, it's of course possible for people like Buddha to have reached deep enough to see the connections clearly, I guess. But the real depths start to come into focus to me now. This is incredible... I THELEMA magick!Also, if you have some recommendations for books to read about the subject I'd love to hear it.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Those 23 pairs have long interested me."
Me too, but that was when I studied biology, so I bet they're way more interesting from the magick pov. Got any book recommendations or interesting information about them too?
@Jim Eshelman said
"PS - Loved the hardware/software analogy."
Thanks. Glad to be of service for once!
@Jim Eshelman said
"PSS - Did you ever notice that "DNA" has three of the four letters of Adonai (ADNY)? The only thing missing is the Yod - the will - the I. (Just like Adam, ADM, is DM, "blood," with breath (A) added.)"
Cool! No, that hadn't struck me.
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@Malaclypse said
"But I am very curious about where or how these things have come to anyone's knowledge, because, being a Westerner programmed human as I am, if there is no physical evidence, how have the analogies been extracted?"
That's one place Western thinking - as well as a large block of conventional Eastern thinking - falls short. One of the true "super powers" that comes with actual initiation (actual progress in The Path) is the power to directly know what is so independent of any evidence coming through the physical senses,, intellect, or emotion.
This doesn't require vast and gigantic progress, btw - it starts to appear in most people by the time they are deeply into A.'.A.'. 1=10 - that is, the "power" to have a direct answer in response to a question, essentially as soon as the question is correctly formulated. The biggest impediment at that stage is when emotion intervenes, and that is handily addressed in the next couple of degrees. "Truth sense" (O ye fans of Dune) is a genuine "power" that develops early and grows step-by-step roughly in step with the deepening of one's connection to the HGA.
It is possible to simply know something without having learned it from anyplace - not just philosophical or relative truths, but concrete physical truth.
"Also, if you have some recommendations for books to read about the subject I'd love to hear it."
I can't think of any. I'm not sure I've read any. You might get closest by reading the autobiographical and other works by the late Gopi Krishna.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"This doesn't require vast and gigantic progress, btw - it starts to appear in most people by the time they are deeply into A.'.A.'. 1=10 - that is, the "power" to have a direct answer in response to a question, essentially as soon as the question is correctly formulated."
Aha, in that case I think I had about an hour long "seizure" where I encountered that power. Whenever I asked a question the answer automatically popped up in my mind, like you describe it there. I started thinking in my paranoia that I was possessed (because it sure seemed like the voice of another entity inside me), and in the back of the mind there was a vague impression of a screaming madman, raving about something completely incomprehensible, but I'm not cetrain those two are connected.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The biggest impediment at that stage is when emotion intervenes, and that is handily addressed in the next couple of degrees. "Truth sense" (O ye fans of Dune) is a genuine "power" that develops early and grows step-by-step roughly in step with the deepening of one's connection to the HGA."
Wouldn't balance be the key to advance beyond that step, by any chance? I'm presently going through the Major Arcana and when I came to Adjustment, I felt better able to discern things. This may be only me, because I am usually very imbalanced, almost bipolar disorder symptoms at times, so that's mainly why I ask.
Thanks for the answer(s)!
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@Oscillate said
"
"The real pattern [of the elements in the LBRP] is that the First Order formula is the letters of Adonai (ADNY) clockwise from the East, just as the Second Order formula is the letters of YHVH counter-clockwise from the East."Hello Jim,
Please can you explain how the letters of ADNY relate to the elements. I can see the connection of Aleph - Air, but do not understand how the other elements correspond to Daleth, Nun & Yod respectively."
Zodiacal letters get their elemental attribution from the zodiacal sign. Planetary letters get the elemental attribution from their Sephirah. So,
ALEPH is Air.
DALETH is Fire (Venus via Netzach)
NUN is Scorpio, a Water sign
YOD is Virgo, an Earth sign