LLLL and the 4 elements...
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The traditional attributions for the 4 powers of the sphinx to the quarters are not what I thought and I was wondering if somebody here can help me. Why is the traditional arrangement Taurus-Life-East, Leo-Light-South, Scorpio-Love-West, Aquarius-Liberty-North. If I have to go with the traditional placement of the elements in a circle, it would be: East-Air-Aquarius-Liberty, South-Fire-Leo-Light, West-Water-Scorpio-Love, North-Earth-Taurus-Life.
Isn't that the traditional path of the sun? The other one makes more sense if you place it on the wheel of the zodiac. Am I getting this right?
Why Taurus is East on the zodiac system and Norh on the elemental system as well as Aquarius is placed on the North.
I'm wondering if the gate of "Life" is placed on the East or the North and why...
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@Metzareph said
"Why is the traditional arrangement Taurus-Life-East, Leo-Light-South, Scorpio-Love-West, Aquarius-Liberty-North."
I thought at first - because of your subject line - that your question concerned the attribution of the Four Elements to these Four Rays. It doesn't. In fact, it doesn't really have anything at all to do with the Four Rays (4 L's), which you have correctly sorted out as Fire-Light, Water-Love, Air-Liberty, Earth-Life. Your question seems to be only about the attribution of the Elements to the Quarters, right?
If so, that's a minor and variable detail. It keeps changing according to level and schema. For example, in the Macrocosmic scheme employed at Tiphereth and above, the Lion moves to the East, etc. But you've kept the element-to-ray attributions intact, and anything else is just a spin-off of that.
"Why Taurus is East on the zodiac system and Norh on the elemental system as well as Aquarius is placed on the North.
I'm wondering if the gate of "Life" is placed on the East or the North and why... "I object mildly to it being called "the zodiac system." I know that's how many people try to explain it, but it's just their explanation. It's no more "the zodiac system" than, say, the classic Macrocosmic Arrangement - less so, in some respects.
But the key is really simple: The arrangement is the Elements in an ascending sequence of Earth, Air, Water, Fire, beginning in the east and going counter-clockwise.
Compare this, for example, to the Macrocosmic Arrangement (used in the original and IMHO far superior version of the Star Ruby, as well as in other Macrocosmic rituals) which is the Elements in a descending sequence of Fire, Water, Air, Earth beginning in the east and going counter-clockwise.
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93
i have saw crowley use several different corresponds for the powers of the sphinx & sphinxes to the elements and LLLLs. is there any set corresponds that is now known as the correst one, or is it all basically up to yourself??? how you best see it fit??
93s
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@Jim Eshelman said
"If so, that's a minor and variable detail. It keeps changing according to level and schema. For example, in the Macrocosmic scheme employed at Tiphereth and above, the Lion moves to the East, etc. But you've kept the element-to-ray attributions intact, and anything else is just a spin-off of that."
I guess that's what is a little confusing to me. If I understand correctly, the Macrocosmic scheme goes according to the descending energy in IHVH with Yod as Fire not Air, and then Heh Water... etc.? which seems to be what you mentioned on the Black Pearl #5 for the Star Ruby Analysis. But I still don't understand how is possible to mantain the element-ray attributions intact since East is Air and is this fashion Leo is placed on the East with Fire. Am I making sense?
Is it the qabalistic placement of Kether-Air-East-Aquarius-Liberty, Chokmah-Fire-Leo-Light, Binah-Water-West-Scorpio-Love, Malkuth-Earth-Taurus-Life?Is the Microcosmic order Malkuth-Earth-Taurus, Yesod-Air-Aquarius, Hod-Water-Scorpio, Netzach-Fire-Leo as in Theion, Nuit, Babalon, Hadit?
I use the Star Ruby just as a reference. Having a reference of either the Zodiac, the Tetragrammaton, the Tree of Life etc. helps me a lot. I want to grasp the order of the elements in the Macrocosmic and Microcosmic orders, and please excuse me for being slow.
Also, going back to the 4 Ls, I noticed on the A.'.A.'. Oath papers, the use of 4 Ds and 4 Ps in addition to the 4 Ls on the four corners. I assumed that they refer to Daleth and Peh in addition to Lameds. If I extrapolate, I'm assuming that this refers to the Three Rays with Daleth being Love, Peh being Power and Lamed being Wisdom. In addition to that, it seems that the "balancing" nature of Lamed should be placed in the middle of the masculine Peh (Mars) and feminine Daleth (Venus) just as ShLM or Shalom. Shin-Fire and Maim-Water balanced out by the adjusting Lamed. In the case of the sequence P-D-L, and if I continue on this route, I don't seem to find a valid correspondance on 777 (for the value of 114). 114 is the Qliphoth of Yesod which doesn't seem to make sense. However, Tear(weeping), Science, Graciuos, Brains, make more sense.
Am I looking too hard into those letters?Furthermore, the fact that 4 and 3s are used you can maybe play with them as in 4+3=7 the sacred number of Babalon and Venus. 4x3=12, the number of the signs of the Zodiac etc. 4x4x4=64 the number of hexagrams in the I Ching, Justice and Nogah... etc.
OK, I think I should stop... -
@Metzareph said
"I guess that's what is a little confusing to me. If I understand correctly, the Macrocosmic scheme goes according to the descending energy in IHVH with Yod as Fire not Air, and then Heh Water... etc.? which seems to be what you mentioned on the Black Pearl #5 for the Star Ruby Analysis. But I still don't understand how is possible to mantain the element-ray attributions intact since East is Air and is this fashion Leo is placed on the East with Fire. Am I making sense?"
I think so. And, if I'm getting what you're saying, then I think the problem is that you're attaching the L-L-L-L Rays to the directions per se. That would be a mistake. The Rays attach to the Elements, and then the Elements are arranged in different ways for different purposes (which often means at different levels).
Yes, in the Microcosmic framework (such as is used within the Vault of the Adepti and, in general, at the Briatic level) Fire (Yod, etc.) is associated with the East. That also means that Leo is associated with the East and the Lion Kerub is found in the East. (If you have a picture of the G.D. 5-6 altar top - I think one is in M&MAA - then you can see this.) And that means that, of the four L Rays, Light is attributed to the East. Hardly a stretch for an attribution, eh?
You say, "East is Air and is this fashion Leo is placed on the East with Fire." That shows a misunderstanding. East isn't always Air - it's only Air in the Microcosmic scheme, rooted in Malkuth, based on spelling the name Adonai (ADNI) clockwise from the East. But East isn't Air in other schemas. The Kerubic associations with the Elements you give are correct. The Names you list are used only in Liber Reguli and one variant of the Star Ruby.
"I use the Star Ruby just as a reference. Having a reference of either the Zodiac, the Tetragrammaton, the Tree of Life etc. helps me a lot. I want to grasp the order of the elements in the Macrocosmic and Microcosmic orders, and please excuse me for being slow.
"The scheme you are referencing is neither the Microcosmic nor Macrocosmic sequence. Here are the things you asked about:
Microcosmic order based on ADNI as Divine Name of Malkuth:
East Air (A), South Fire (D), West Water (N), North Earth (Y).Macrocosmic order based on YHVH as Divine Name of Tiphereth:
East Fire (Y), North Water (H), West Air (V), South Earth (H).There is a third sequence never mentioned, but visible on inspection even in the earliest of the Golden Dawn rituals. It is a Supernal pattern based on AHYH as Divine Name of Kether:
East Air (A), West Earth (H), South Fire (Y), North Water (H).In all cases, the Rays attach to the Elements in the same way. As the Elements move, so do all of the attributes of the Elements move.
Crowley's pattern for Liber Reguli is none of these patterns, but is a thing unto itself.
"Also, going back to the 4 Ls, I noticed on the A.'.A.'. Oath papers, the use of 4 Ds and 4 Ps in addition to the 4 Ls on the four corners."
Good observation.
I decided to give a lot of raw data on this in M&MAA but to say nothing further about variant systems in public but only to Second Degree (and sometimes First Degree) T.'.O.'.T.'. in private. Therefore, I'll be avoiding all questions on variant attributions of these 4 Rays to the Elements 
"I assumed that they refer to Daleth and Peh in addition to Lameds."
There's an old Qabalistic formula of great importance involving the initials L.P.D. You can find a section on this in Confessions which, I think, is Crowley's only public writing on the matter. It's worth reading and wrestling with.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Good observation. I decided to give a lot of raw data on this in M&MAA but to say nothing further about variant systems in public but only to Second Degree (and sometimes First Degree) T.'.O.'.T.'. in private. Therefore, I'll be avoiding all questions on variant attributions of these 4 Rays to the Elements "Not fair!!
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There's an old Qabalistic formula of great importance involving the initials L.P.D. You can find a section on this in Confessions which, I think, is Crowley's only public writing on the matter. It's worth reading and wrestling with."OK... thanks so much Jim!
BTW... Confessions is a dead end. Crowley doesn't talk about L.P.D. much, but I think I'll have a good time doing research.
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@Metzareph said
"BTW... Confessions is a dead end. Crowley doesn't talk about L.P.D. much, but I think I'll have a good time doing research.
Thanks again."It's not a dead end at all! He very carefully didn't give you the answer, but did give you what you need to get the answer. I spent about 10 years working (on and off - more off than on) on that one paragraph in Confessions and it was worthwhile for me.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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It's not a dead end at all! He very carefully didn't give you the answer, but did give you what you need to get the answer. I spent about 10 years working (on and off - more off than on) on that one paragraph in Confessions and it was worthwhile for me."WOW! Somethimes I bite more than what I can chew. It is interesting that there is a pattern right in front of my face, and I'm wrestling with it.
OK, let me bite again...I know that Cheth-Samekh-Cheth (from the Enochian) and the Lamp of Invisible Light (the * first * order created by Crowley) AND the 1st Aethyr are connected.
There is one thing missing ....
hmmmmm (scratching head)
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93
{Epsilon }{upsilon }
DE NATURA
{Sigma }{Digamma }{Iota }{Nu }{Upsilon }.
Firstly, this Sphinx is a Symbol of the Coition of Our Lady BABALON with me THE BEAST in its Wholeness. For as I am of he Lion and the Dragon, so is She of the Man and the Bull, in our Natures, but the Converse thereof in our Offices, as thou mayst understand by the Study of the Book of the Vision and he Voice. It is thus a Glyph of the Satisfaction and Perfection of the Will and of the Work, the completion of the True Man as the Reconcilor of the Highest with the Lowest, so for our Convenience conventionally to distinguish them. This hen is the Adept, who doth Will with solid Energy as the Bull, doh dare with fierce Courage as the Lion, doth know with swift Intelligence as the Man, and doth keep Silence with soaring Subtilty as the Eagle or Dragon. Moreover, this Sphinx is an Eidolon of the Law, for the Bull is Life, the Lion is Light, the Man is Liberty, the Serpent Love. Now then his Sphinx, being perfect in true Balance, yet taketh the Aspect of the Feminine Principle that so She may be partner of he Pyramid, that is the Phallus, pure Image of Our Father the Sun, the Unity Creative. The Signification of this Mystery is hat the Adept must be Whole, Himself, containing all Things in true Proportion, before he maketh himself Bride of the One Universal Transcendental, in its most Secret Virtue. And now herefore, o my Son, comprehending this Mystery by thine Intelligence, I will write further unto thee of these your Beasts of Power.from this part i bolded i would see it as:
Y=bull,life,fire
H=man,liberty,water
V=lion,light,air
H=serpent,love,earthi know most people do not this this is the right order, but from the above in liber aleph and the chapters explaining each power this is the order i find, is this incorrect???
G
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@bethata418 said
"from this part i bolded i would see it as:
Y=bull,life,fire
H=man,liberty,water
V=lion,light,air
H=serpent,love,earth"In the model he was using, he intended Man to mean Aquarius = Air and Serpent to mean Scorpio = Water.
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93
"Microcosmic order based on ADNI as Divine Name of Malkuth:
East Air (A), South Fire (D), West Water (N), North Earth (Y).Macrocosmic order based on YHVH as Divine Name of Tiphereth:
East Fire (Y), North Water (H), West Air (V), South Earth (H).There is a third sequence never mentioned, but visible on inspection even in the earliest of the Golden Dawn rituals. It is a Supernal pattern based on AHYH as Divine Name of Kether:
East Air (A), West Earth (H), South Fire (Y), North Water (H). "Oooh, I have new found respect for the system. Very interesting, I had thought that the directions and attributes were static.
93, 93/93
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"Light, Life, Love" was fairly common. For example, it was the (alleged) name of the central European temple from which the Golden Dawn claimed descent.
I believe adding "Liberty" was Crowley's invitation.
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@Fra.'. SPQR said
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@Jim Eshelman said
""Light, Life, Love" was fairly common. For example, it was the (alleged) name of the central European temple from which the Golden Dawn claimed descent.I believe adding "Liberty" was Crowley's invitation."
The Order in question was named Gold und Rosenkreutz (Gold and Rose Cross), not "Light, Life, Love.""
I said the temple - not the order. (And G. und R. was from the 18th C. and may not have had a direct connection.)
In the (alleged) correspondence from G.H. Sor. S.D.A., the order was identified as "Die Goldene Dämmerung." The last paragraph of the first letter, from November 1887, reads: "Please write to me again and kindly seal the letter you send addressed to me, enclosing it in an envelope which is addressed to the Lodge of Light, Love, and Life (Licht Liebe Leben), the address of which you know."
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
In fact, my question was motivated with following:
- First Golden Dawn Temple was Licht Liebe Leben, as Mister Eshelman said. Second (about whom I don't know anything also) was Hermanubis and
just the third was Isis-Urania. Anna Sprengel atrributed original manuscripts to the Eliphas Levy, I really can't know as a owner or as author. That is funny, just because in this case Aleister Crowley in one incarnation is responsible for creating of the Golden Dawn, and in next incarnation for the destroying of the Golden Dawn.
OK, I googled a little. It seems that these phrase comes from John's Gospel. That opens another question. Is Thelema rejection of Christianity, or Thelema is redefining and just different valorisation of Christianity?
Old truth new understanding? In this sense Thelema wouldn't be anti but post Christian with redefinning of some of Christians postulats, not rejecting them? I also have some ideas/questions about the dove Star of Babalon in the light of christian simbology and possible connection with the
Holy Spirit, but I don;t want to bother you too much
Love is the law, love under will.
B.
- First Golden Dawn Temple was Licht Liebe Leben, as Mister Eshelman said. Second (about whom I don't know anything also) was Hermanubis and
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@HPK said
"OK, I googled a little. It seems that these phrase comes from John's Gospel."
Can you give a citation? I can't find it from a search of John's gospel.
"That opens another question. Is Thelema rejection of Christianity, or Thelema is redefining and just different valorisation of Christianity?
Old truth new understanding?
"
Big question, worthy of thought and discussion. I don't have time today to give a thoughtful answer, and others may want to join in. I'd suggest you start a new thread just on that subject and see where the discussion goes. -
www.a1books.com/cgi-bin/mktSearch?act=showDesc&code=gbase&rel=1&ITEM_CODE=B0006CAM6E
There's a book by that name, but also could it be John of the Cross?
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Jim Eshelman said
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@HPK said
"OK, I googled a little. It seems that these phrase comes from John's Gospel."Can you give a citation? I can't find it from a search of John's gospel."
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
I apologize, not the Gospel but First Epistle of John. Here is the description from the Theopedia:
Author and Date
The apostle John wrote this letter probably between 85 A.D. and 90 A.D. from the city of Ephesus in Asia Minor.
[edit]
BlueprintThe first epistle of John is generally divided up into three parts:
* God is light (1:1 - 2:27) * God is love (2:28 - 4:21) * God is life (5:1-21)John wrote about the most vital aspects of faith so that readers would know Christian truth from error. He emphasizes the basics of faith so that we can be confident in our faith. In our dark world, God is light. In our cold world, God brings the warmth of love. In our dying world, God brings life. When we lack confidence, these truths bring us certainty.
source: www.theopedia.com/First_Epistle_of_John
"That opens another question. Is Thelema rejection of Christianity, or Thelema is redefining and just different valorisation of Christianity?
Old truth new understanding?
"
Big question, worthy of thought and discussion. I don't have time today to give a thoughtful answer, and others may want to join in. I'd suggest you start a new thread just on that subject and see where the discussion goes."
"It seems we will have great discussion about this. Now I am tired and have to do some other things, but tomorrow I am going to start this new thread.
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@evolver said
"One problem i've been considering as i work this morning, is that from my understanding, the paths describe upward moving energy, as opposed to the Fire Flash from kether to malkuth. So the path of Gimel is a flaw here ... as that energy wouldn't descend by it."
The traditional (initiatic) model is not so much that the Paths describe upward-moving energy but that, in simple terms, our perception is that we are moving up the Paths.
I think the best model for understanding this is that the Paths portray consciousness always stream downward - into manifestation - but that, as we open our denser faculties to subtler levels, permitting this in-streaming, we appear to move upward (i.e., inward).
Thus, the Path of Tav wouldn't be undestood so much as "the way to move up from Malkuth to Yesod," but, rather, as "Malkuth opening to admit the instreaming of Yesod." Either modelling ends in a "moving" from the experience of only Malkuth to the experience of Yesod. This way of modelling language has the advantage that it correctly portrays the progressive awakening of new faculties and channels, a growing.