What happens if we reach Kether?
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Is there ever any escape from suffering? I've seen Kether represented as a state of blissful existence in which one experiences the unity of everything. I've also read that, after reaching Kether, you are right back where you started as "Kether is in Malkuth..." I have trouble believing that after all that effort, you wind up on Earth again, reborn as a whiny, suffering, scared little human over and over throughout eternity.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Is there ever any escape from suffering?"
Suffering is a complicated subject not easy to handle in a few toss-off remarks.
One usual (and I think accurate) thing to say is that "suffering" continues as long as we are incarnate - as long as we have a body and an associated personality. But that's an incomplete statement because there are points past which it doesn't at all appear the same.
I am certain beyond any reasonable realm of doubt that suffering is entirely a construct of the personality. FWIW this seems entirely consistent with Buddha's teachings on the subject.
Buddha's teaching also have the acceptance of suffering (as a basic condition) as one of the core starter principles of Buddhism. The joke is that the exact things that are perceived as suffering by nearly all people at nearly all stages are things that - rightly understood - are the substance of joy.
So a couple of things to say about suffering are that one must learn to accept it (not the interpretation of suffering itself, but the exact circumstances that are knee-jerk interpreted as suffering) and that one must understand it. Unfortunately, those words are common enough that it's hard to establish a correct meaning in them except by experience. Fortunately, there are specific techniques and steps for learning how to do this. That's why we have training systems.
"I've seen Kether represented as a state of blissful existence in which one experiences the unity of everything."
That unity experience comes quite a bit earlier. For Kether, I think the most useful teaching we have received from our predecessors is the name of the 10=1 grade - Ipsissimus - which means "he who is most himself." That phrase teaches a great deal.
"I've also read that, after reaching Kether, you are right back where you started as "Kether is in Malkuth..." I have trouble believing that after all that effort, you wind up on Earth again, reborn as a whiny, suffering, scared little human over and over throughout eternity."
You are back where you began because you never left it. The difference is that who is there is not the same.
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Thanks, Jim. It appears I have been mislead by a comic book (imagine that!) Alan Moore's Promethea Books 4 and 5 are 100% Qaballah with plenty of appearances by Crowley and Austin Spare (book 3, too, but it's not as interesting)... by book 5, there is "the apocalypse" which is verrrry interesting!
Anyway, the Kether experience shown there looked great! Like what I imagined Nirvana must be like.
One thing I don't like about this whole Qaballah thing is "never leaving" the realms of suffering. Yes, I know you've said that rightly understood, these things are pure joy--- "existence is pure joy" is something I've thought quite a lot about and I think I'm sloooowly starting to get it... but, let me ask: are these spammer porn guys causing the administrators of the board pure joy?
I mean, even little things like that confuse me, to say nothing of the idea of being physically or emotionally abused...What I dig about Buddhism is the promise of release from this sort of crap. The Buddha said after he experienced Nirvana and came back to earth, rather than casting off his body, "There is a sphere which is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air...which is neither this world nor the other world, neither sun nor moon. I deny that it is coming or going, enduring, death or birth. It is only the end of suffering."
That's where I wanna go!
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@Redd Fezz said
"but, let me ask: are these spammer porn guys causing the administrators of the board pure joy?
"Well, that depends on how good their porn sites are, actually
"I mean, even little things like that confuse me, to say nothing of the idea of being physically or emotionally abused... "
I think you have the wrong question. (That's my best effort, given the hour.) One blind spot: You seem still to be thinking of the various parties involved in such things to be separate people.
"What I dig about Buddhism is the promise of release from this sort of crap."
Yes, by ending everything
So much for appreciating the trip.But in practice Buddhism (based on long-term devoted Buddhists I've known - including the Dalai Lama) is very joyous along the way. It doesn't begin to approach the "Oh, my reward is in the Beyond" of, say, Christianity. The Tibetan variety is especially intensely pragrmatic and here-and-now.
"The Buddha said after he experienced Nirvana and came back to earth, rather than casting off his body, "There is a sphere which is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air...which is neither this world nor the other world, neither sun nor moon. I deny that it is coming or going, enduring, death or birth. It is only the end of suffering.""
First of all, Buddha didn't write anything, so this is somebody else's notes. But, moving on from that... What's this from, the Dhammapada? I don't recognize the passage directly. It sounds like a fair description of the World of Briah in the way that it can be known at least to the very mature A.'.A.'. 5=6 (and tasted earlier than that). In that case, there are exacting steps to follow to make this a familiar state.
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Good points (I almost wrote, "Buddha supposedly said...")... It is from the Udana-sutta.
But, I did make the point the other day that, which seems to bring the 2 concepts closer together (are they talking about the same thing?):
"I have met some people who describe nirvana with such perfect, rigid accuracy you'd think they'd been there, but all they've done is memorized a bunch of abstract terms from a book and, hopefully, they'll recognize it when they get there. (Then, they laugh at terms like "Buddha Pure Land".) They never seem to for a moment suspect that their limited knowledge is only a hint of the mystery which is indescribable. They use their definitions to whittle away at what Nirvana is not without acknowledging that sometimes words have a secret meaning or a second meaning.
If the Buddha described nirvana, then surely he must've been there... so why was he on earth talking about it? Shouldn't he be snuffed out? Surely, there must be some hidden mystery. The term nirvana is also described as "ineffable," which means that surely there is hidden mystery there. All the words that describe nirvana are quite literally beyond our ordinary comprehension. Everything is 'one taste'... well, what is that one taste? It can't be sweet & sour because technically I think that's two flavors."
The point is, as you say, practicing Buddhists paradoxically recognize that all is dukkha and yet they experience everything with a sense of profound joy. Thich Naht Hahn has some fantastic books about Nirvana and enlightenment that left me with the feeling it was just a way of experiencing the world. Thus, the world is destroyed and replaced with 'The Buddha Pureland' which the Therevedans snicker about as fantasy. Both Buddhism and Qabalah see the world as a Unity and, perhaps acting in accordance with Will, one can easily avoid such suffering. On the other hand, Tibetan prisoners have said that it was not difficult to remain happy when the Chinese were torturing them. And, of course, we've seen Buddhists set themselves on fire and sit there peacefully burning to death. These people must have bypassed dukkha somehow and seen that "all existence is pure joy." And, just as the historical Buddha experienced Nirvana and remained on earth to talk about it, when one reaches Kether, he is still in Malkuth. So, is there really no escape from material realms, but just a different relation to it? I mean, it seems that we have some symbolic ideas to give people hope which, properly understood, have a completely different meaning (which might be better than we could possibly imagine, but is impossible to explain to the uninitiatied).
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About 20 years ago, on a weekend in the mountains (up by Lake Arrowhead), a friend and I discovered that the cadence of "Life is shit and then you die" is exactly the cadence of "All existence is pure joy." We fooled around for a while putting a common melody on these and then playing with how to set the first going and then weave the other in as counterpoint.
It didn't end up going anywhere, but we had a lot of fun for half an hour, and I've never forgotten those interwoven threads of matched cadence - two sides of the same coin.
Technically, you don't get past Dukkha - instead, you see if for what it is. Things that appeared one way, on sufficient examination, disclose themselves always to have been perceivable differently. It's more than pain tolerance, of course - it doesn't take much preparation to be able to have a root canal drilled with no anesthetic - I did it once, and, among other things, found how terribly curious my mind is about pain as it kept trying to travel down the nerve line right into the depth of more sensation than my expanded state could absorb. (Pain is intensely concentrated senation, high-density pleasure, and nothing more - I'm sure of it!)
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Unfortunately I don't know many of the terms mentioned in relation to most aspects discussed on these forums. My path has been as much self discovery as direct working with spirit, therefore I have given my own names to things lol - I hope someday to bump into the right person who will help me connect the dots so to speak, if nothing else so I can actually communicate effectively with others on such issues.
I'm assuming this thread is relating to enlightenment, or at least the steps to such, in my understanding of such, this state, when attained happens in life which will allow the enlightened to communicate to others. To teach from their experience.
A recent vision I had was of being within the Mothers arms as she sat upon her throne at the base of the tree of life. She placed me at her side, a child armoured in armour dark and red, roaring to all I advanced and grew in stature to that of youth. She left me then beside the throne and descended the steps, leaving me at guard beside her throne.
Being ignorant of much in the way of symbolism I hope someday to understand the meanings of such visions, a Tantric friend of mine stated that I was on the verge of Moshka? (not sure if that's correct spelling) although what will be will be.
Just as all things are connected, so is the material and the spirit, apart yet connected within the cycle of All.
Rev.D
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There is nothing stopping anyone from killing themselves, yet few do. Clearly the human condition isn't all that bad; the positive must outweigh the negative.
The attainments are out there. Nuit in Liber Legis sums up sorrow well as "the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all." Also "Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing...thou hast no right but to do thy will." Here it is implied that doing one's True Will will create a life of joy, and alleviate the highly divided mind state. Specifically, by practising meditation and ritual.
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"There is nothing stopping anyone from killing themselves, yet few do. Clearly the human condition isn't all that bad; the positive must outweigh the negative. "
Either that or the hardwiring of the genetic elements of our physiology prevent self-destruction as a readily enforceable proposition. The propagation of the species warrants certain fail safes so that our collective species endure on Terra Firma.
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I'm not going to claim any certain attainment because truly it's the working/walking more than the arrival that truly matters and there's beauty in the dance of one step forward two steps back... but I have in extreme situations left my body to escape the pain and seemed to go drifting off in search of the source to burn it all away. It seemed to me what I was seeking was the burning heart of the Sun with the notion of God is Love but instead found Kether to be more of a neutral if not cold pure white light with the characteristics more of intelligence than love. It was the end of pain which negates the opposite feeling of bliss and joy as one can not exist without the other. It's just pure conciousness which is why it can't be held here on the material plane, the world of dualities, because 2=0. We can only work with Wisdom and Understanding until all are ready to leave... so it seems from the only perspective I see, through me.
I think of it as the Fool card's image in Ryder-Waite of him stepping off the cliff. Why is he a fool? Because once you step off the cliff there's this sudden updraft that seems to gently place you right back on the edge to either wait or go back and wrangle the herd. There's no escaping the Great Work so mote it be... at least for me.
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@Jaivala said
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"That unity experience comes quite a bit earlier. For Kether, I think the most useful teaching we have received from our predecessors is the name of the 10=1 grade - Ipsissimus - which means "he who is most himself." That phrase teaches a great deal. "When does the unity expirience come? After you have crossed the abyss or even before that achievement?"
That specific "unity experience"? It comes long after crossing the Abyss. Two grades later, to be precise.
But, more broadly, there are occassions of a "unitive experience" many times along the way. All of the elements that have seemed diverse previously will resolve into a sort of singularity which, in turn, is later seen to be but a single unit in a larger set.
"To which sephira does the state of consciousness correspond, when you perceive objects as seperated and different from each other but simultaneously as being not seperated and different? Like when are in cinema and and watching a movie on the screen, and you see John Rambo killing all his enemies knowing that John Rambo
is not his enemies, i.e. that he is somehow seperated from other objects, but in the same time you see something that what unites them, which in this case would be the screen."Malkuth, or any thereafter.
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@Jaivala said
"How does that Adeptus Minor perceive the objects. i.e. the world around him? I thought that he is the one, who perceives the the unity in the difference."
I could easily say yes or no to those words... I don't know what they mean to you. - I might personally pick words or phrases that say something very similar, so I suppose it's right enough (but I'm guessing!).
I would suggest reading Crowley's essay on the Beatific Vision in Little Essays....
