new aeon
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@Chris Hanlon said
""BTW, check out Jung's work on the Anima and the Animus, and the process of Individuation. "
The Anima is his shadow. It becomes the witch when it is not acknowledged.
"Not that this has anything to do with the other important topics going on in this thread (cough cough), but I think that Jung had two different concepts in mind for the "shadow" and "anima/animus" archetypes. (Though note that everything below is from memory...)
Think of everything that you think you are. That's what Jung alternately called the "persona" or the "ego." The shadow is everything you think you're not. Put them all together, and you've got the whole Self.
If you are male, then a significant subset of "what you're not" is going to consist of female attributes. This "package" is the anima, which isn't necessarily as antagonistic and challenging as the totality of "not-me" (i.e., the shadow) can be.
I've always thought that Billy Joel's old song "The Stranger" was a good description of confronting the shadow archetype.
On the whole, there seems to be a lot of "hidden individuation" in Thelema, the A.'.A.'., etc. It seems to be clearly a part of the journey, but it would benefit to be talked about in those terms more often, I think. Aum418, I'm looking forward to printing and reading your psychological treatise in detail.... more time next week to do this, I hope...
Steve
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If you prefer a non-Christian Gnostic explanation, ok.
We humans do nat have a niche we are not part of the natural world. It neglected and rejected us, but instead of die off, we invented technology to cope, to transform our environment and even ourselves. We recreated nature in our own image, Prometheus stole the fire af the Gods if you Will.
anyway, ultimately we can either die off by destroying nature until our life line to it is severed beyond repair.
OR we can become something unnatural, We can become fully technological, ween ourselves off nature, off the entire biological foundation. Then create a new world, a world built of technology rather than nature, A world in the image of MAN, rather than the image of the creator or nature.
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@froclown said
"We humans do nat have a niche we are not part of the natural world. It neglected and rejected us,"
I have to disagree with that.
It is the human race which has rejected the natural world, with our over population and stripping of natural resources.Rather than living in harmony and showing respect with what has allowed us to keep evolving we rape and mistreat her.
@froclown said
"We can become fully technological,"
Where do you plan on getting the resources to build this technology?
Why, from the nature that has rejected us, yet continually provides us with what we need to survive!
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Yes it seems we have to use silicon and electricity etc. however nature is not the raw matter, it is a system that organizes that matter.
The point is to live fully in a semantic mental world, a world where we interact fully with cyberspace and have no need to deal with the physical matter, but rather with information.
Ultimately we learn to do mare and mare with less and less, until eventually perhaps we can do all with nothing. Or as close to this as in possible.
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93,
"The point is to live fully in a semantic mental world, a world where we interact fully with cyberspace and have no need to deal with the physical matter, but rather with information.
Ultimately we learn to do mare and mare with less and less, until eventually perhaps we can do all with nothing. Or as close to this as in possible."
"Come unto me" is a foolish word; for it is I that go. (Liber L, II, v7). That is, the natu of Nuit, the universe, is that is totally fileld with dynamically interactive Hadits. To strive to do away with that is en effort that's bound to fail.
This thread seems to be about the awfulness of life and living. But Thelema recognizes all this interaction, all this change, by one word: Love. The opposite of Love, as Freud noted, is Death: that is, stasis, paralysis and utter isolation. Maybe some of you think "Yippee - come me in, or rather, out!" But this isn't a Thelemic position.
"Beauty and strength, leaping laughter and delicious languor, force and fire, are of us." (Liber L II, v 20).93 93/93,
Edward
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@Froclown said
"The point is to live fully in a semantic mental world, a world where we interact fully with cyberspace and have no need to deal with the physical matter, but rather with information."
The Age of Aquarius begins in 2376 A.D. It doesn't seem that what you describe is likely to start until sometime into the 2,160 years following that.
"Ultimately we learn to do mare and mare with less and less, until eventually perhaps we can do all with nothing. Or as close to this as in possible."
That's seems excruciatingly boring.
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Creating entire worlds to inhabit, linking our minds collectively, the ability to build all manor of bio-mechanical bodies and download our consciousness into them.
Nano-bots that can reshape anything according to our WILL.
Existing as a transient consciousness that is not tied down to this or that specific chunk of matter, in this short duration of space time. Being Immune to pain, disease, aging and death.
What is boring about this?
It sounds like the very definition of a secret chief.
Is not the highest goal and reason to study Magick at all the hope of ascending human form, to cross the abyss, and become a Secret chief who dwells in the city of pyramids eternally beyond the limits of physical manifestation, yet can WILL to manifest himself physically in any form he WILL to accomplish collective aims of the brotherhood?
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@Froclown said
"Creating entire worlds to inhabit, linking our minds collectively, the ability to build all manor of bio-mechanical bodies and download our consciousness into them.
Nano-bots that can reshape anything according to our WILL.
Existing as a transient consciousness that is not tied down to this or that specific chunk of matter, in this short duration of space time. Being Immune to pain, disease, aging and death.
What is boring about this?
It sounds like the very definition of a secret chief.
Is not the highest goal and reason to study Magick at all the hope of ascending human form, to cross the abyss, and become a Secret chief who dwells in the city of pyramids eternally beyond the limits of physical manifestation, yet can WILL to manifest himself physically in any form he WILL to accomplish collective aims of the brotherhood?"
How old are you, anyway? You sound about 14.
Dan
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@Froclown said
"Is not the highest goal and reason to study Magick at all the hope of ascending human form, to cross the abyss, and become a Secret chief who dwells in the city of pyramids eternally beyond the limits of physical manifestation, yet can WILL to manifest himself physically in any form he WILL to accomplish collective aims of the brotherhood?"
Well, no, not really.
One might argue that something like that is one of the higher goals of mysticism for some beings, but certainly not of magick.
The highest goal of magick is to intersect the incarnated Divine essence with the fully human to discover and fulfill the function for which it entered voluntarily into incarnaton.
BTW, it does seem you have the idea that we are incarnate against our wills. Nobody is here that didn't choose to be. There is no trap. This is what we are setting out to do in this part of the big amusement park tour.
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I find it difficult to believe that you do not joyfully celebrate the body when you are on a Thelemic website. The freedom you speak about comes from not feeling imprisoned by anything, since you are truly who you are, and where you should be.
I flee from anything because of fear and pain, and a sense of helplessness.
How much pain does it take to wish to obliterate the body? A lot.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
It is not so much a fleeing from as an advancing towards.
Is it not so that we act to improve the world so as to have fit bodies to incarnate into in the future?
Well, I say the body is a liability, that we can not so much be rid of the body, as become something that survives the body, that can use and abandon bodies at WILL.
That has a body in the Cyber world as well as the physical, that if the physical is damaged or killed, the SELF can move on to a new one.
The astral plane is not real it is an imaginary version of what the cyberspace network would make a reality.
We did not choose to incarnate as we are not before we are born, we might imagine that we had some sort of other world pre-birth existence but that is again an imaginary belief.
The mystics may believe with all their might that meditation and ritual gives them power or ascends them beyond death. but it is a lie.
Only by combining those practices with real technology can we hope te actually achieve those goals.
(If Crowley really was a magus or an Ipssissimus, where is he now, in whom deos he incarnate, prove that he lives in the astral plane beyond the abyss? yau can not, because it is not so!)
If We down load our minds to a cyber network however, we can prove that though the body lies, the soul lives on, both in the transcendent ever-present wireless network, and in the physical forms in which that consciousness might manifest itself.
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@Froclown said
"Is it not so that we act to improve the world so as to have fit bodies to incarnate into in the future?"
That is certainly one of our responsibilities, yes.
@Froclown said
"...that we can not so much be rid of the body, as become something that survives the body, that can use and abandon bodies at WILL. "
We already do this quite adequately through reincarnation.
@Froclown said
"The astral plane is not real it is an imaginary version of what the cyberspace network would make a reality. "
There are many on this board with direct experience of the astral plane; something that contradicts this assertion.
@Froclown said
"We did not choose to incarnate as we are not before we are born, we might imagine that we had some sort of other world pre-birth existence but that is again an imaginary belief. "
You are entitled to this belief, of course but, again, there are others on this board who know different.
@Froclown said
"The mystics may believe with all their might that meditation and ritual gives them power or ascends them beyond death. but it is a lie. "
Again, I'm curious how you can claim to know this (as opposed to merely believing it).
@Froclown said
"If We down load our minds to a cyber network however, we can prove that though the body lies, the soul lives on, both in the transcendent ever-present wireless network, and in the physical forms in which that consciousness might manifest itself."
Just a nit pick. It should be up load, not down load. If fact the process you are describing is called up loading.
Dan
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@ar said
"
Just a nit pick. It should be up load, not down load. If fact the process you are describing is called up loading."Well, actually, wouldn't it be relative? Whichever you believe to be the greater expanse would be downloading to the smaller and vice versa. If I was god, I would be downloading to cyberspace
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@kuniggety said
"Well, actually, wouldn't it be relative? Whichever you believe to be the greater expanse would be downloading to the smaller and vice versa. If I was god, I would be downloading to cyberspace
"Downloading is copying stuff to your machine. Uploading is copy to another machine. If your consciousness is copied/moved somewhere else that is, by definition, uploading, not downloading. Becoming possessed of another consciousness in you brain might be considered downloading, though
Dan
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@Chris Hanlon said
"I find it difficult to believe that you do not joyfully celebrate the body when you are on a Thelemic website."
Though I disagree with Froclown on some other issues, I think that Thelema can certainly be extended to this kind of "transhumanism." What is the body, after all? What would a computerized "form" be but just a different form?
Presuming they can work out all the bugs, of course...
Steve
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Yes I know upload to the network, but them download back into a body.
But really You are the software not the hardware, so really every time you transition it would be downloading, the net is just one sort of vessel to house your mind.
As far as people who claim they have direct experience or reincarnation, let them present their evidence. The human nervous system, and that includes the wet ware of the brain, is not geared to experience things correctly, it is constantly fooled into thinking it perceives what is not so. Thus when you say but I heard the voice of the spirit clearly, I fail to see how your self induced delusion and audio hallucinations prove their content is an aspect of the world, not just a misfire in your brain.
Sure Magick works, when I do the same rituals in the same way, I will most assuredly cross the same wires in my brain as others did, my brain will misfire in the same way, I will see similar hallucinations, have similar emotional responses, and meet with the same sort of "spirit". These are all neurological effects of engaging in symbolic acts in an artificial context, which are processed by the brain in unusual ways.
There is no need to postulate that the events I experience of the beings I may meet are actual, no matter how real it may seem to me at the time.
So if you show me under rigorous scientific examination that you can say catch a spirit on film, or measure its presence with some sort of device I will believe it is there. If you can open a portal to the astral plane and download an image from it, not from your brain, but via a machine directly from that plane, then we are on to something.
If can kill some one under laboratory controls, and have that soul transmigrate to a prepared body, and can show that this actually happened with some sort of test, then shall I have evidence of reincarnation.
But that people believe to have seen things, or have deep inner feelings that a thing they experienced possibly while high on drugs of under the influence as mystical trance states, or fatigue from long hours of Kabbalah application and study. No these accounts can not be trusted, the brain is easily confused and made to jump to conclusions, fabricate sensory data, and become fixated an notions it picks up twisting all information and perception to justify its fixation.
The method of Science is objective testing and doubt of the nervous systems conclusions.
The Aim of religion is to become more that human and released from the finality of bodily death.
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It's like Jim said. You signed up to reincarnate in a body, and nobody made you do it. You chose to do it to evolve. For whatever reason you have a body - you have a body. If you want to leave your body, you can do that at any time, but, obviously, you choose to keep it alive right now.
Malkuth is the flower of the tree. The roots rejoice in the flower and the flower venerates the roots (Kether). One does not live independently from the other. They live for one another as they are really one.
So, are you doing Thelemic rites? Or are you just on line to discuss what you want to discuss?chrys333
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@Froclown said
"Is it not so that we act to improve the world so as to have fit bodies to incarnate into in the future? "
I agree with you completely. But those will be biological bodies. That's what's necessary for us to do the particular evolution of which you speak.
"Well, I say the body is a liability, that we can not so much be rid of the body, as become something that survives the body, that can use and abandon bodies at WILL. "
I agree. But I think you're being short-sighted. I think you're trying to look at this in the microscopic time-frame of a single lifetime. For the whole of its existence, the human race has been departing old bodies more or less at will and assuming new ones through the process of birth. I agree that, as a species, we could refine that process quite a bit, but the basics are solidly in place.
"The astral plane is not real it is an imaginary version of what the cyberspace network would make a reality."
I disagree completely. The astral plane is not "imaginary" in the sense you appear to mean it (i.e., fictional or inauthentic). It's the World of Yetzirah, and quite genuine. Cyberspace in a tiny subset of the World of Yetzirah.
"We did not choose to incarnate as we are not before we are born, we might imagine that we had some sort of other world pre-birth existence but that is again an imaginary belief. "
I disagree completely. I have no doubt at all that this particular position of yours is simply based on your lack of lack of spiritual maturity and experience. If you apply yourself in the years to come, you likely will have the opportunity to confirm what I'm saying for yourself.
"The mystics may believe with all their might that meditation and ritual gives them power or ascends them beyond death. but it is a lie. "
I've died while in this present body, and reentered it. I've died many times that I remember roughly as clearly and reliably as I remember major events at work last week. (And there are countless occassions before that which I don't remember, just as there are thousands of days in my present incarnation that I don't particularly remember.) You aren't competent to say this is a lie: You're only competent to say that there is nothing in your experience which leads you to believe my experience can be true.
"If Crowley really was a magus or an Ipssissimus, where is he now, in whom deos he incarnate, prove that he lives in the astral plane beyond the abyss? yau can not, because it is not so!"
Not my place to prove it to you, and I don't think it's on the astral plane. I have a pretty clear idea, but technically it remains a theory.
"If We down load our minds to a cyber network however, we can prove that though the body lies, the soul lives on, both in the transcendent ever-present wireless network, and in the physical forms in which that consciousness might manifest itself."
Actually, it wouldn't prove any such thing. It would only prove that data can be digitized, and that digitized data can be played with a sufficiently sophisticated player. Your experient doesn't communicate a thing about the soul.