Joining the A.'.A.'.
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Well i do not think those things are "different" paths.
For example I think just as each Sepheroth has a God form to be invoked, it seems to me that a GOD form comes with an entire religion or paradigm.
Thus To fully take on the atheistic materialist paradigm of Science is to invoke Hod and work towards the attainment of Practicus.
Likewise, to fully accept Wicca is to invoke Netzatch.
The perspective that all various Gods exist as a continuum which can be tuned into like radio stations, relates to Tiphereth, and facilitates the HGA experience, especially when that principle is applied to the INNER SELF vs. the external personas.
This method is based on Chaos magick and its paradigm shifts.
A complete embrace of the Nothing is TRUE: Everything is permissible paradigm opens the thresh-hold of the abyss.
The INNER SELF (HGA) is banished from its central position. In terms or the Hexagram, the SOLAR paint moves to join the 6 planetary paints, the result is the Heptagram, as in the seal of Babalon.
The Abyss is crossed by Usurption, the void becomes the new Focal point of ones being, as a Magister Templi. Represented as the open space in the center of the heptagram, which is the cup of Babalon, to be filled with the blood of saints. Which is to say the Yod, of divine spark, cast forth by the Magus.
Thus a Magister templi must construct and fortify a dewlling place or Womb in which to gestate that word. (as such it is a feminine grade).
The transition to Magus then appears to be total identification with the Yod , A full Samadhi with it, but only after one has passed the tasks of MT, can this be accomplished upon the word.
It is to these tasks that I dedicate my work,
"That I shall Interpret every event as a direct communication between GOD and my soul"
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@Froclown said
"Well i do not think those things are "different" paths. "
Of course there are. But A.'.A.'. is the name of one specific system. The fact that you want to pursue a different path is cool, but the fact that you steal an existing system's name to do it isn't cool.
Call it the Order of Froclown (O.O.F.), The Gospel of Thomas (G.O.T.), or the Make It Up As I Go Along (M.'.I.'.U.'.A.'.I.'.G.'.A.'.) - but it's not A.'.A.'. any more than it's the Girl Scouts of America.
"For example I think just as each Sepheroth has a God form to be invoked, it seems to me that a GOD form comes with an entire religion or paradigm."
I agree.
"Thus To fully take on the atheistic materialist paradigm of Science is to invoke Hod and work towards the attainment of Practicus."
Sure.
"Likewise, to fully accept Wicca is to invoke Netzatch."
Yesod, more likely - and, in terms of internal development, more Malkuth.
"This method is based on Chaos magick and its paradigm shifts."
Not to be confused with A.'.A.'., of course.
"A complete embrace of the Nothing is TRUE: Everything is permissible paradigm opens the thresh-hold of the abyss."
FWIW, I've yet to encounter a Chaos magician who had the slightest clue about the Abyss, although most are living a script of encountering what I might call "barrier thresholds" and breaking through them routinely. In casual language one might call this "an abyss," but in technical Qabalistic language it isn't "The Abyss."
" The Abyss is crossed by Usurption, the void becomes the new Focal point of ones being, as a Magister Templi."
See immediately above, and trying not to LMFAO.
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Do you have documented evidence that you have attained the official A.'.A.'. Grades up to MT.
and can yau prove that your experience and expression of these is more authentic than mine?
A was under the impression that attainment was a process in the individual and its achievement is authentic reguardless of the dogma and trappings of symbols and rituals.
That the A.'.A.'. system formulated by Crowley was a suggested set of rituals that he found would achieve results, but like any other science the system is open to challenge and alteration, in order to progress.
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@Froclown said
"Do you have documented evidence that you have attained the official A.'.A.'. Grades up to MT."
My grade isn't the question here, eh? Please review above and you will see that I haven't claimed any grade at all.
"and can yau prove that your experience and expression of these is more authentic than mine? "
You're changing the topic. It's not a matter of authentic experience, it's a matter of definition. You can't join the Girl Scouts and, by doing so, say that you're in the Boy Scouts. If you do, you're either lying or wrong.
"A was under the impression that attainment was a process in the individual and its achievement is authentic reguardless of the dogma and trappings of symbols and rituals. "
Attainment, yes. But this isn't necessarily true for attainment within a specific system. As you point out, there are many different systems, and the steps, stages, labels, etc. don't at all mean the same thing in different systems.
To use an easy example, a 6=5 Adeptus Major in the old Golden Dawn order doesn't at all mean the same thing as 6=5 Adeptus Major in the A.'.A.'.. (For one thing, the old G.D./R.R. et A.C. system is only an attainment of Geburah in Yetzirah, whereas the A.'.A.'. grade of the same number and name is attainment in Briah.) They aren't comparable other than in the broadest theoretical sense, and to say one is 6=5 in the old system carries little (if any) practical meaning in the A.'.A.'..
"That the A.'.A.'. system formulated by Crowley was a suggested set of rituals that he found would achieve results, but like any other science the system is open to challenge and alteration, in order to progress."
Not just rituals - a whole system. You stated the correct point: It was a specific system formulated by Aleister Crowley and G.C. Jones. It shouldn'[t be confused with some "generic attainment" label that a person can turn into whatever they think it should be and still call it the other system.
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You seem to think that a grade in the A.'.A.'. is like a degree from a university.
It is rather a state of being that one attains.
Sure a masters degree from Brown is not the same as one from Yale, and a degree in physics is not the same as a degree is philosophy.
However, is no less an Atheist if one cones to that conclusion via a refutation of the ontological argument or by your faith impotence against personal traumas.
The means are different, the result is the same.
Is not the A.'.A.'. to mean the sanctuary behind the cloud, and Crowley's external order, though he called it the A.'.A.'. was itself not the platonic ideal order, written of in the cloud upon the sanctuary.
IT was however directly concerned with aiding the common man in his ascension to that one true brotherhood or prophets, who experience the TRUTH behind the veils of rituals, maintained by the priests be they catholic Bishops or Thelemic whores, to administer the inner truth in a shell understood by the worldly population.
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@Froclown said
"You seem to think that a grade in the A.'.A.'. is like a degree from a university.
It is rather a state of being that one attains. "
We're close to agreeing on that. I would say, rather, that it is reflective of a state attained.
Except that's not entirely true either. While state changes to tend to occur for most people between most grades, there are only certain grade transitions that are decisively "state changes" in the (for example) "shift between Qabalistic worlds" sense. Some of the intervening ones, for some people, are much more like university grades in that they are mostly confirmation of mastering and passing examination on a specific set of skills - which are brought to play in the "big shift" points.
But this still misses the main point: Given that A.'.A.'. Grades are substantially marked by such transitions, so are other kinds of training systems, and this doesn't make them equivalent. The A.'.A.'. 5=6 Grade, for example, marks pretty much the same primary state of development of the Aurum Solis Third Hall grade - but one can't become an A.'.A.'. 5=6 and say one is an Aurum Solis Third Hall initiate, or vice versa.
You're still treating A.'.A.'. as if it's some generic.
"Is not the A.'.A.'. to mean the sanctuary behind the cloud, and Crowley's external order, though he called it the A.'.A.'. was itself not the platonic ideal order, written of in the cloud upon the sanctuary. "
Unfortunately, Crowley was sometimes confusing in his language. (I'm avoiding more than a brief mention of the digression that the "Cloud Upon the Sanctuary" partial rewrite should have been called "An Account of R.'.C.'." instead of "An Account of A.'.A.'." - it's really of a stage well below the Third Order.)
Primarily the A.'.A.'. is the name of a specific organization founded by Aleister Crowley and George Cecil Jones in 1906-07. Secondarily, the initials are sometimes used to refer to the Third Order from which that organization extends. The name of that Third Order, "Silver Star," has the initials S.'.S.'. in English, and it's much less confusing to use this name. Since the Greek initials of the same words are A.'.A.'., Crowley sometimes used them just to refer to the S.'.S.'..
Just as a point of communication, I strongly recommend just calling it "the Third Order," S.'.S.'., etc. since none of those terms applies to the specific manifest organization called A.'.A.'..
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I think you're completing missing the point that Jim is arguing, Froclown. You may be ascended to a spiritual height and may be instituting a valid system of initiation, it's just that it's not "A.'.A.'.". You have your analogy of Yale and Brown. If you graduate from Brown, you can call yourself a college grad, but not a grad of Yale... you didn't go to Yale. It's the same as that you can't call yourself a grad of A.'.A.'.... if you didn't really climb its particular system.
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Well, I was appointed to the position in the SL A.'.A.'.
I had actually advanced linearly to the grade of Practicus, but it seems my previous advancements were taken into account, and I was Granted the grade of Magus.
I considered my personal grade at the time to be the Equivellent to 7=4 is the A.'.A.'. system, having been previously dealt quite a blow in the abyss.
I still had my sights on 8=3 but felt I should, start over as a neophyte to refortify my foundations. Thus I was my reasoning for joining this order.I found myself rapidly advanced to Practicus, and then finally given total control over the order. I took displayed my title as Magus, but felt I had only proven myself up to Practicus and my actual grade that of Adept Exempt preparing for a second attempt at the abyss.
Then I spoke with one "Leo Twin" who assessed by grade as the opening of Magister Templi, and I came to realize that my attempt to cross the abyss had not failed, rather I was turning away from it, I refused to live up to the oath, I denied taking it.
Well, I accepted the oath and my inner vision became clear,un-muddled in a way that it had been.
Thus I changed my title to Magister Templi. and set out to reform this virtual A.'.A.'. to reflect the official structure af the A.'.A.'. in order that I might entice the WORD or current of the Aeon to fill it.
And this I should think the work Proper to a Magister Templi.
(Also I might add that the Grade is open to any neophyte who accepts the oath)
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@Froclown said
"Well, I accepted the oath and my inner vision became clear,un-muddled in a way that it had been."
If your posts on this forum are a reflection of this "clear, unmuddled" vision, I'd hate to see what you were thinking before your fantasy attainment.
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@Froclown said
"(Also I might add that the Grade is open to any neophyte who accepts the oath)"
The exact quote is: "Any neophyte of the Order (or, as some say, any person soever) possesses the right to claim the Grade of Master of the Temple by taking the Oath of the Grade" (One Star in Sight).
This is commonly misunderstood to mean that one actually attains the Grade by taking the Oath. In fact, it only says that one has the right to claim it. It's a trap for posers who go around claiming things. One doesn't actually get the grade that way.
BTW, the one line from the MT oath that you quoted earlier is a very worthy goal and an enormously valuable practice. It is, however, only the Malkuth clause of the 11-line 8=3 oath. Here is the entire Oath.
"I. I, ___________, a member of the Body of God, hereby bind myself on behalf of the Whole Universe, even as we are now physically bound unto the cross of suffering:
II. that I will lead a pure life, as a devoted servant of the Order:
III. that I will understand all things:
IV. that I will love all things:
V. that I will perform all things and endure all things:
VI. that I will continue in the Knowledge and Conversation of my Holy Guardian Angel
VII. that I will work without attachment
VIII. that I will work in truth:
IX. that I will rely only upon myself:
X. that I will interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my soul.
And if I fail herein, may my pyramid be profaned, and the Eye closed to me." -
Clear to me and clearly expressible in linguistic symbols does not mean the same thing.
You say that 5=6 is not the same in one order as in another.
But is it not an expression of the formula of the rosy cross, which is alchemical union of opposites. Is it not marked by the distillation of the higher or Inner Self, or Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA, which means the same thing.
Are you saying that different orders offer different HGAs?
Or shall we continue with my assertion that attainment of the HGA is the same regardless of the circumstances which bring it about, and it matters not if you call this 5=6 or uniting with ones Atman.
Crowley was given 9th degree in the OTO, without having earned the degree in succession from the order.
When Crowley and Jones formulated the A.'.A.'. Neither of them started as a neophyte and worked his way through the system. Crowley earned his outer order titles in the golden dawn, his 5=6 from persuading Mathers, and he Conferred the titles of adeptus major through Ipssissimus upon himself.
I might add that he attained these Grades, not by word with the A.'.A.'. system directly, but via his works with Aiwass and his efforts to bring about the new aeon. In fact he formulated the A.'.A.'. as part of his attainments, it was not via membership within it.
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@Froclown said
"You say that 5=6 is not the same in one order as in another.
But is it not an expression of the formula of the rosy cross, which is alchemical union of opposites. Is it not marked by the distillation of the higher or Inner Self, or Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA, which means the same thing.
Are you saying that different orders offer different HGAs? "
No, that's silly. You missed the point entirely and I'm going to stop repeating myself.
"Or shall we continue with my assertion that attainment of the HGA is the same regardless of the circumstances which bring it about, and it matters not if you call this 5=6 or uniting with ones Atman."
The authentic attainment of the K&C of the HGA is, of course, authentic. But, again, you're missing the point.
"Crowley was given 9th degree in the OTO, without having earned the degree in succession from the order. "
That has nothing to do with attainment. That's an administrative decision in a para-Masonic organization. This isn't me being snotty: AC made clear statements in various O.T.O. documents, including source documents in The Blue Equinox, that attainment is not the basis of O.T.O. degree advancement.
But, in a sense, you've made my point - Different organization, different rules, different meaning. Though I am a past Deputy Grand Master General of O.T.O. who was rightly vested with the Ninth Degree within that organization, I subsequently resigned my membership and therefore have no right to call myself a Ninth Degree (or, for that matter, any degree) of O.T.O. One has to be a member to have a category of membership.
"When Crowley and Jones formulated the A.'.A.'. Neither of them started as a neophyte and worked his way through the system. Crowley earned his outer order titles in the golden dawn, his 5=6 from persuading Mathers, and he Conferred the titles of adeptus major through Ipssissimus upon himself. "
Actually, A.C. had his grades through 7=4 confirmed by Jones, who was entitled to do so. And you're still missing the point.
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You still seem seem to think that, being a Girl Scout, you can claim to be Boy Scout, and can redefne what the rules of the Boy Scouts should be based on the rules of the Girl Scouts. -
I make no claims other that membership in that "third order" as you like to call it.
I refered to it as the sanctuary or TRUE Church also the A.'.A.'.
It is also true that members of this order have the right to start their own external organizations which express the inner truth in any way they find practical.
Thus it matters not if my Order is based on Golden dawn, free masonry, or Macrome, so long as these external teachings convey the Inner Truth, they are manifestations of the inner order the A.'.A.'.
Seeing as I plan the order to not only administer the external rites, but also to train adepts and prepare them for crossing the abyss, there by ascending to the third order the True inner A.'.A.'. and I plan to use the basic outline and official rituals of the external order that also went by the name of A.'.A.'. I see no reason why I should not call my order A.'.A.'.
Which of the several orders that go by that name do you propose has the right to claim itself by that title? The one the traces itself back to Jane Wolfe perhaps? I see no reason why these orders have any more or less right to claim connection to the inner mysteries than the one I propose.
If my order is not ligit, then my temple will be found unsatisfactory the light will not come te dwell there in, my operation as an MT will have failed. "Success is thy proof"
Or to invoke the ghost Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name"
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Also if a girl scout met all the requirements to earn a boy scout merit badge, I would say that despite not being allowed to join the boy scouts, she has every right to wear that merit badge on her girl scout uniform.
If a girl scout has completed all the requirements of Eagle scout and wants to start her own co-ed scouts, and run it along the same lines as the boy scouts, she is so entitled. Once this Co-ed troop becomes established the boy scouts may even accept the troop for official membership.
Her scout troop need not be directly affiliated as a member of the "Boy Scouts of America" to be a legitimate franchise.
So lets just say I am opening up a Franchise A.'.A.'. With aspirations of becoming Corporate.
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@Froclown said
"Also if a girl scout met all the requirements to earn a boy scout merit badge, I would say that despite not being allowed to join the boy scouts, she has every right to wear that merit badge on her girl scout uniform. "
Yeah, but you just made up that rule. Obviously she doesn't really have the right.
"If a girl scout has completed all the requirements of Eagle scout and wants to start her own co-ed scouts, and run it along the same lines as the boy scouts, she is so entitled."
Sure. She can always start something new. But she can't call it by the name of the other organization she's somewhat copying.
"Her scout troop need not be directly affiliated as a member of the "Boy Scouts of America" to be a legitimate franchise. "
Similarly, she isn't entitled to use their name.
"So lets just say I am opening up a Franchise A.'.A.'. With aspirations of becoming Corporate."
As long as you don't call it A.'.A.'. (or by the name of some other currently existing organzation), I have no problem with whatever you want to create or claim.
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But their is no official A.'.A.'. as it were, as the name confers only a connection to the inner mysteries.
It is also a method, structure, set of water marks, etc.
I plan to use those, but also adapt those for the times and the individual, update the reading lists, including Lovecraft, Philip K. Dick and Peter Carroll.
As well as the study of the church of the subgenius, in connection with the Soldier and the Hunchback and Onion peelings from the book of lies.
It may even be the case that I would suggest online courses from maybe logic or other such, just as mastery of an art is required for Philosophus and a science for Practicus.
Are Computer science, biotechnology, and Quantum mechanics, not suitable technical sciences for the Practicus, just because Crowley didn't know of them? Must we stick to the letter?
Which OTO do you propose is authentic? Does winning a court case make you authentic? I should think not, since the laws of men are made up, and do not apply to nature let alone to TRUTH and authenticity.
So who is to say my A.'.A.'. is not the Authentic one?
On what grounds shall we judge Authenticity, save by creating an open space in which Authenticity may come to dwell.
It is my intent to create a clearing, a Ritual space, in which Authentic A.'.A.'. Being may come to dwell. I could call it something else, I could make a whole different order, with different rules, goals, structures, etc.
but "Is a God to live in a dog?"
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@Froclown said
"Which OTO do you propose is authentic? Does winning a court case make you authentic? I should think not, since the laws of men are made up, and do not apply to nature let alone to TRUTH and authenticity. "
But O.T.O. isn't a force of nature, it's a specific organization. It's property. So yes, by definition, legal standing can define that.
"So who is to say my A.'.A.'. is not the Authentic one?"
If you are following the patterns and instructions laid out in Liber XIII, Liber 185, and One Star in Sight and can demonstrate a documented successorship from one or both of the two founders, then I would refrain from commentting one way or the other per our noninterference policy.
But I don't feel bound to extend that noninterference policy to self-evident and even self-admitted malarky.
"It is my intent to create a clearing, a Ritual space, in which Authentic A.'.A.'. Being may come to dwell. I could call it something else, I could make a whole different order, with different rules, goals, structures, etc. "
Please call it something else. Nobody would then have a basis to argue with you. (Of course, that probably would spoil your fun.)
"but "Is a God to live in a dog?""
I've been refraining from asking you the same question.
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93!
Thanks again Jim, for more clarification on the difference between attainment and being accredited with a grade in a particular system and the fact that there are different lineages, all from the same sources ultimately and I don't mean just Crowley but more the ancient Eye of Horus mystery schools of Egypt hence the use of Egyptian names/archetypes, which have different criteria in wisdom and attainment. None of this discredits nor should discourage our natural individual paths towards our Work just it does not give us the right to claim any such degree officially within an order out of respect for a possible ignorance of that system which I for one acknowledge.I can not speak for others but it seems there are many like me here that are relieved to find familiarity with this flux of information coming out of theories on indigo adults which I would love to know the official A.'.A.'. take on... I feel I have been born into a system of initiation and aware of my HGA and a spiritual plan of action since early childhood, this has included a sense of destiny with this organization that is to be found or it will find us(oops- I mean me) that almost seems mythological at this point thanks to the split in the caliphate after the death of Grady McMurty, as well as the writings of RAW... Point of clarification- I have been in correspondence with who goes by just the initials AA opposed to A.'.A.'. in attempts to eliminate the confusion such as the claims presented here. Truly there is One Order of Melchizedek but various organizations filtering into that bright light of Secret Chiefs who are not present incarnate. But I'm going tangent...
The frustration or fear of those of us who have been wondering while working a spiritual path since birth is to not be recognized as "special" and to not be presented a form of "special ed" like the programs we were pulled out of class for in elementary school and be put back into the normal left brain curriculum such as minervals of the OTO which correlates to Malkuth when we know, wait I know that I've existed out of Tipareth for quite some time and have been attempting to leap like the fool into the abyss and can't interpret the results successfully surrounded by instructors who insist I am starting in Malkuth in order to follow the system of instructions in uniform to alleviate any loss of experience in preparation to assist future students who are in fact starting at ground zero. This presents doubt in our intuition first off, and we(sh*t I) are a rebellious and evolved breed of humans who by means of neccessity are well trained to not accept limitations by nature but to know, in secret, we are to challenge all systems of order because of the systems in place, more universally such as economically or politically, are failing and it is our work to abolish them!
This is the conflict you are getting from all these renegade initiates. We trust No One but ourself and are self conflicted by the need for acknowledgement and the knowledge we are only a part of the movement yet we Will not stop nor falter if denied our inner truth because we know the time is now. I'll do it alone if I have to but rather we are one...
Ya think? 
Cheers to the meeting of minds! May we ALL come to an understanding, yea ALL come to an understanding.
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@Asraiya said
"...theories on indigo adults which I would love to know the official A.'.A.'. take on..."
There is no official take on this topic.
"The frustration or fear of those of us who have been wondering while working a spiritual path since birth is to not be recognized as "special""
Everybody walks the same path. If you truly have abilities greater than others, then you will move through the steps more quickly. But there's no skipping. If you believe you have already covered part of the path, then the proper step is to ratify it by rewalking it under monitoring eyes.
"I know that I've existed out of Tipareth for quite some time and have been attempting to leap like the fool into the abyss"
Then there should be no problem affirming that the foundation is in place, eh? These are develpmental stages and are cumulative.
"This is the conflict you are getting from all these renegade initiates We trust No One but ourself and are self conflicted by the need for acknowledgement..."
I wish you well. If you feel the system has nothing to offer you, then obviously you will need to look elsewhere. All your choice.