Treating Spirits with respect.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@kuniggety said
"Eh, I see that as horseshit. Royal or not, a Thelemite moving with his/her True Will speaks as they are to, not how someone else dictates a Royal should."
chuckle
"common" was his word, not mine - i quite agree with you, though. after all, "A King may choose his garment as he will: there is no certain test."
of course, it's also true that "a beggar cannot hide his poverty."
@Uni-Verse said
"I merely meant to imply that the fat man could "die (transform)" into a thin man through exercise, etcetera. "
yes! yes! yes! i'm with you! die daily! absolutely!
"We call it by a different name, but it still the same star in a different form."
amusingly, this is very similar to how my lodgemaster puts my experience into his words - he said something like "this is how your star manifests on the plane of discs."
i'm going to digress here for a moment (not that this whole thread hasn't been an exercise in digression since the first page.) no star completely manifests as Just One Thing on all planes. more to the point, nobody is "completely male" or "completely female" on all planes. a brief examination of any decent drawing of **(http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/baphomet4.jpg:1p3j6bmg) should serve as an example of that effect.
the idea is to find out how your star Does manifest. for a few of us, there's a gender-based ordeal involved with that. now, some people - like "froclown" here - are terrified of that ordeal, typically because they feel tendencies in that direction themselves. you may have noted the seemingly endless parade of virulent christist homophobes who have turned out to be quite queer indeed over the past few years. this effect is similar.
"All you seem to speak of is limitation..."
yes, i've noticed that in his posts as well. i suggest again that it comes from monotheistic tendencies, which are present to a greater or lesser extent in the vast majority of us raised in the west. in myself, it manifests in a "everybody should do it This way" kind of thing, and also as a tendency to state my opinions as fact - i'm sure some of you have noticed That particular fault of mine.
the first is one i've been working on since i identified it some time ago. as for the second, hah... i may have to resort to a liber III."The flesh is (eventually) to be transcended, not transfigured. "
i realize you're just playing "devil's advocate" here, first off (ye gods we need a better phrase for that)
life is change, Uni_Verse. our flesh transfigures itself constantly, under our conscious direction or not. your argument implies that working out, tattooing and watching what you eat, for example, should be avoided.
the difference is one of degree, not of kind. i just can't find a way to agree with you here.
"Easily placing the male genitalia (and female) under the reference of "junk." "
i quote from crowley's new comment
"We are now struck with the fact that Nuit commands us to exercise
the utmost freedom in our choice of the method of utilizing the
services of this our first, our finest and our fieriest talisman; the
license appears at first sight unconditioned in the most express
and explicit terms that it is possible to employ."our "finest and our fieriest talisman" hardly implies garbage!
@Edward Mason said
"I think you may be confusing boredom with tolerance."
noted, understood and Vastly amused by
let me say again - well said! such tolerance towards the path of another star is all too rare in the west, even within thelema itself.
now. for "froclown."
"Magick is not the man thinks he is a woman so he uses magick to mutilate himself"
all considerations of the english language aside, your sentence makes no sense. you say, basically, "magick is not magick."
"rather Magick works by the man realizing he is a man and accepting that, and casting all delusions to the contrary out of his mind, and learning to act like a man."
oh, so we're supposed to "accept the body god gave us?"
monotheistic nonsense. as i quoted above, crowley himself disagrees with you.
we must learn to be who we are, not who we appear to be.
on another plane entirely, the idea of "binary gender" has only been in vogue in the west for a relatively short period of time. many people (one out of a hundred) are born every day with some characteristics that are considered "male," and others that are considered "female" by the american medical profession. i refer you (or, more likely, those here with a will to expand their knowledge-base) to the following short piece on intersex births on PBS' website.
intersex is not transgenderism, but they're quite closely related and often appear in the same people. crowley considered himself to be a partial hermaphrodite - will you tell him to "be a man?"
"Magick does nat propose a supernatural excuse, "oh but I have a female soul, our a female kamic debt, or I was a womon in my last life" Magick may take the fact that one has accumulated these notions from ones life, as a part of ones Psychology, figure out why this is and discove how they add into the equation of ones WILL. "
these... suggestions of yours are specious and beside the point. for example, i have never claimed to "have a female soul" - indeed, i have never claimed to have a soul at all. these... ideas of yours simply betray your ignorance.
as for your second sentence, i quite agree with you. my life experience has made me Certain Without Error that part of my will is to be transgendered. i realize that this is probably not what you're trying to imply, but your clumsiness with the language and your inability to make your points clearly serves me well in this regard.
"There are other options, but do insist that he really is thin, but trapped in a fat mans body, is a lie."
you're confusing the planes. i do Not insist that i am a woman trapped in a man's body - i insist that i am transgendered. perhaps you're intellectually incapable of negotiating that difference.
"A spade is a spade. If one happens to be a spade, the fist step is to stop trying to be something else. "
again, your poorly constructed arguments and lack of talent with written english have made my point for me - as i am transgendered, the first (not fist - i get kinky but i'm not into That, thank you very much) step was to stop trying to be a guy.
"Seeing as you constantly excrete parts of your body and take in more raw material, and every 7 years every last cell and atom is replaced, them you do not even exist at all."
so... we're not what we're made of? above you seem to say the exact opposite.
and OF COURSE we don't exist! i'd like to tell you about this great book. reading it really changed my life - it's called Liber AL vel Legis - you should really check it out to understand where i'm comnig from, although based on your posts i don't think you'd like it very much!
mkay maybe that was a little much
"Do you suppose that if you eat cut off chunks of flesh from a person and eat only that one persons flesh fou 7 years that you will become the person you ate? Of course not. Thus Reincarnation is false."
first off, False? False?!? again, we see these monotheistic tendencies.
also, your argument makes no logical sense. it's like saying "because i don't grow wings after eating nothing but poultry, there's no such thing as flying."
"That is how it is"
more monotheism! are you sure you're in the right forum?
"The point is that a thing is what it is, and its a lot easier to change tho mind than to fight against the nature of things. "
again, you're confusing the planes and making my point for me.
"If you insist on pissing into the wind or paddling your canoe up stream, then by all means do. But do not suppose that this is the following of the TAO.
"again, you've made my point for me. i'm transgendered - not a man at all!
"I have no interest in persecuting the transgendered"
you seem to have every interest in belittling us, telling us that "we're WRONG" and so on - where i come from, that's a form of persecution. by the way, i come from planet earth. it's a nice place - please don't come visit!
obviously, there are more intense types of persecution, but in history the milder forms typically lead to the more extreme ones.
after all, hitler didn't round up the gays and jews first!
"I simple find that perhaps what leads one to such an act is a grass in alyas greener situation, where if one is not content with ones natural gender, one may find that becoming the other is not in reality any more satisfying than ones original state.
"again with the binary gender nonsense.
i'll tell you something else - very few people do what i've done because they think "the grass is greener" or they're "discontented." we do it because it's Who We Are - because it's Our Will.
sure, you see the people on the talk shows who transition and then are dissatisfied. typically, they're not actually transgendered - they just think they're transgendered. and YEAH - that would really suck ass if somebody got a vaginoplasty from an unethical surgeon who didn't require letters from psychiatrists and so on to perform the operation and then turned out to not actually be transgendered! this, however, does NOT imply that there's no such thing as transgended people.
outliers simply do Not define the curve.
" the true lesson of these powers is that contentment comes from within, from higher practices that disavow the changing ones circumstance "
dude, seriously, what exactly is thelemic about your ideas here? i mean, you're using words like "will" and "magick" but it's like they're just window dressing.
"It is the failure to find happiness in powers and abilities, that leads one to the spiritual life."
again, monotheism.
besides -** BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!**
this gives a real insight into your character, "froclown." you're an Unhappy person. you've apparently come to thelema because you feel something missing and you think that thelema will give it to you.
you'll find, if you've the strength to continue, that you're laboring under lust of result. i'd wish you luck, but i think it will be more fun watching you flounder about the shallows of initiation, wondering when you'll get the result you're so clearly lusting after.
"Do what thou Wilt = Be what you are. "
again, you make your point for me.
do you have any idea what it is Exactly that you're trying to say? i don't think you do!
hah - and you think i'm shooting from the hip!
"Also, I did not even get into the holistic effects of things, the fact that gender is a social role, not directly related to physical genitalia."
NO SHI*T, SHERLOCK.
when transgendered people "go full time," what they do is change their social role! the vast majority of female to male ts folks never have the "gender reassignment surgery" and if you'd seen the results of that surgery you'd know why!
i mean, come on, an air pump in your testicles that you squeeze to get hard? it looks even sillier than it sounds - no wonder most of them don't do it!
this is also true for a growing number of mtf people - including myself.
being a woman in society and hormone replacement therapy is plenty enough for me, for one thing. changing the orientation of my penis from an outie to an innie just wasn't what i needed to do.
however, for some people, it IS what they need to do. there's a whole spectrum there - i highly recommend you educate yourself before making an even bigger fool - or "clown" - of yourself.
of course, my "hermaphrodite of science" body creates some rather amusing difficulties with some of the more techical aspects of certain sex magick rituals, but that's Nothing compared to what i went through before i went through with it. besides, the rituals are pretty incomplete and one-sided - which is only natural. sometimes people complain that crowley didn't write any lesbian sex magick - i say, how could he?!?
extrapolating from your point of view, "froclown," i'd say you probably think that homosexuality is "wrong," too, so maybe that example is lost on you.
"To compel the physical body to perform in ways it in not designed for, runs us into problems.
""froclown" - by all means, go back to the trees! better yet - back to the ocean! c'mere and i'll give ya a push!
just the fact that we stand upright causes us problems. look at what happens to our feet! our back! we've radically altered our evolutionary curve to harmonize it with solar radiation. by all means, though, hop along on all fours! i'll be the one laughing at you really, really loud and shouting "go doggie, go doggie, go!"
what i'm saying here, in case you've missed it, is that you're points here are so poorly thought out that you've ended up making my argument for me and have presented yourself as a monotheist taboot.
"III, 56. Begone! ye mockers; even though ye laugh in my honour ye shall laugh not long: then when ye are sad know that I have forsaken you."
Love is the law, love under will
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@Edward Mason said
"
Transcendence, as you seem to mean it here, strikes me as being a form of disconnection or dissociation, like an old Aeon perspective on overcoming 'evil' matter with 'good' spirit. There's a false dichotomy built into that viewpoint.
"My reference was in regards to absolving oneself of dichotomy. Where a person ceases to be neither male nor female, the genitalia becoming "junk" a representation of what was, but no longer is. As they have come into union.
I am thinking of it as more a false representation of the individual, that needs to be tossed out (not literally tossed out).
@Edward Mason said
"
The lead that is turned into gold is not to be despised, because it embodies the gold, or at least contains the principle of gold within it.
"Lead can be turned into gold, but you should never mistake lead for gold.
Goldschlager (a liquor with gold flecks) would be deadly if they put lead flecks in it instead.@Edward Mason said
"
They are the means of expression of union in the realm of Assiah.
"Only one of the means. Sex can be an expression of union or it can be just sex. It is my opinion that the lead is not gold by default, nor is the genitalia a means of expression by default.
They have the potential to be but into those modes, certainly. But they cannot reach them on their own.
Side note:
Around here, junk is common slang. -
93,
"It is my opinion that the lead is not gold by default, nor is the genitalia a means of expression by default. "
I'd respond to this, but I don't understand your meaning.
"
Where a person ceases to be neither male nor female, the genitalia becoming "junk" a representation of what was, but no longer is. As they have come into union. "I think I see your point. Still, I'd have thought genitalia in union would be anything BUT junk, since they're forming a gate to ecstasy. Words carry meanings and levels of meaning, which is why choosing words carefully is a key element in ritual.
93 93/93,
EM
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If there is any deep meaning to why I used the term junk, it is because the context of the sentence was the cutting off and casting away of the genitalia, as if it were junk.
But like I said "cut your junk off" is a common slang way of saying this.
The problem I see, is that you think in terms of Cartesian dualism, in fact something of a Cartesian multi-layered system. That is you fail to realize that the physical world is the only world there is. Yes the brain organizes things into a hierarchy of abstraction, but in actuality there is only the physical.
Ones personal identity, is created physically via the impressions made from the external environment, including the social environment. That one has come to develop a self image that is at odds with ones Physiology or even ones social class, means that their is a problem with the self-image that can be changed, rather than social and biological reality which is the innate background into which one came to be, it is the substance of who and what one is.
You can not change these things to become more yourself. because it is these very elements that make up who one is.
Of course, one can have a minor effect or social changes and can take on any gender identity one chooses. "A king can choose his garment as he WILL". but the verse also says "deem ye not of change, all is ever as it was".
If you wish to go in disguise as another class or gender that is well and good, but you can not change the facts of physiology.
I have friends who are furries, and they may want with all their hearts to be foxes, skunks, or Wolverines, they play act them with each other, they even wear costumes and entangle their sexual identities in these characters they created for themselves, basically invoking them before sex parties etc. However, they even it they have their teeth sharpened and tails grafted to the base of their spines, they do not become those animals, any more than that guy with tattoos and a forked tongue is actually a lizard-man, no matter how many meal worms he eats on stage.
Likewise, I play a female avatar on second life, partly because people give me money for no reason, and partly because if I must look at my characters ass all the time, it might as well be female. There are other reasons. But, I also take the form of a pill bug, an alien, and a male star trek guy, depending on the situation. However, changing ones external appearance does not change one fundamentally, as I learned from in the attainment of knowledge and conversation.
I an not saying one should or should not change gender, I am just saying that changing clothes does not change who one is, that was set in childhood, and it takes great inner work to change those imprints.
The lizard man, is not a lizard, and he only enjoys the esteem he does because people clap for him and such, but they are mocking him, the see him as a freak, not as an example of a man who achieved his ideals.
Not that a transsexual is a freak like the lizard man, I used the term loosely to mean that which deviates from its natural physical form. As one with 11 toes is considered a "freak of nature" that is a divination from the norm, rather than its own species.
The Transsexual remains the sex (s)he was at birth, but is a deviation from of that form.
Where Thelema applies to changing the world or society, of things of this nature, include those who are castrated at an early age, to be used an Eunuchs. Also where women are forced to hide under burkahs, in such a case that they are not allowed to be what they are.
They changes to be made even in this case are not to be huge revolutions, but to change the mentality of the oppressive class. To impose rule over they oppressors only leads to violence, rather they change of ideal, means they will lift the oppression on their own.
I do not seek to impose a law that makes people not allowed to transgender, any more than I want to see it illegal to get ridiculous full body tattoos and eat worms on a stage. Thelema is about changing the ideals on which the social system is based, thus creating a situation where The WILL of the individual is not restricted such that they form self images that are out of agreement with their physical biology and/or social class.
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and if by monotheist, you mean I believe is objective reality and not in postmodern pluralist bullshit, Then I will accept your title of mono-theist. Of course I consider myself an A-theist but if belief that their is a reality of some kind is a GOD, then fine I believe in that "GOD".
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
"froclown," i see you've either not read or not understood my post. i'll assume the first, and from this point foward treat you Likewise.
Love is the law, love under will
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93,
Froclown wrote:
"The problem I see, is that you think in terms of Cartesian dualism, in fact something of a Cartesian multi-layered system. That is you fail to realize that the physical world is the only world there is. Yes the brain organizes things into a hierarchy of abstraction, but in actuality there is only the physical. "
I fully accept a multilayered perspective, because my life's experiences have shown me one.
We differ on this, and there isn't much point endlessly rehashing it.
"Ones personal identity, is created physically via the impressions made from the external environment, including the social environment. That one has come to develop a self image that is at odds with ones Physiology or even ones social class, means that their is a problem with the self-image that can be changed, rather than social and biological reality which is the innate background into which one came to be, it is the substance of who and what one is. "
This is only part of the picture, according to what I have experienced and learned. Again, endlessly going over it will not resolve the difference we have.
"However, changing ones external appearance does not change one fundamentally, as I learned from in the attainment of knowledge and conversation. "
I accept you believe you have had the K&C.
But going by these rambling, mean-spirited, weasel-worded posts with all the self-justifications and insecurities they exhibit, I sincerely doubt it has truly come about.
93 93/93,
EM
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do you just accept experiences because they carry an air of the undeniable?
I have seen and experienced many things. Astral planes, spirits, "demons" taking control of my mind, other worlds, other-worldly things, voices, visions, the ineffable, and the indescribable. I have had my "soul" pulled from my body hurled through space and time, other dimensions, saw things behind me while my "body" faced the other way. Melted into a puddle, blew away as ashes in the wind, blasted to bits, etc.
And this was direct experience as clear as day, (I once saw the Sun rise in the middle of the night, and illuminate the whole area.) but When it was done I was whole, no one saw the things I saw, and physics does not allows those things. Thus What I saw were visions of the mind, dreams while awake. Thus I can not doubt I saw what I saw, but I doubt fully that in reality anything came to pass. There are no other worlds, spirits, etc, just a physical brain working strangely due to the stresses, inputs, and drugs that effected it.
Before one cam truly understand, one must realize only physical scientifically verifiable reality exists.
LSD may reverse gender role identity imprints, but it can not physically change gender.
Magick works just like LSD only with more control. See RAW.
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further more I am not being weasel worded or mean spirited.
If you want to see that sort of thing, try reading Crowley's opinions on things.
If I took Crowley's perspective I would say.
Self castration is not only foolish but an act of treason against the divine source. The Phallus being the source of semen, the divine seed. It is to defile the Eucharist, the blackest act of magick he could imagine. But I do not take Crowley's perspective.
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Froclown,
That "outward form" is seen by YOU to be a male form because you seem to be of the perspective that those physical characteristics, predefined by our typical western povs, are of the inherent natures they present themselves as to you. I would use a physical constant to make it easier for you to see how the True Will can be applied in this transgender case: the True Will is the natural tendency for everything in the omniverse to reach the state of least potential energy charge.
I.e. if there was always a voice inside luxinhominefactum that told her the present state of her body was wrong, then the fruition of that inner calling was to have an operation. All in conformity with Will. And if the voice inside was content with that, then why do you (in being another person) use that example to point out the fault of that person's choice?
To my mind, this is the same fault as literally interpreting the Bible and defending that notion with "this is the word of God" and forgetting that "but this is my personal interpretation of that word". Sorry if I come off as harsh, though. Just stating my observations as usual. -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@Malaclypse said
"if there was always a voice inside luxinhominefactum that told her the present state of her body was wrong, then the fruition of that inner calling was to have an operation. "
with respect, yes and no. the body and social role was not where it needed to be, but the actual "operation" - the vaginoplasty - as i said in my rather (and perhaps overly) lengthy post, wasn't actually necessary and hasn't been done. of course, it is for some people, just not in my particular case.
what was necessary was to become, in the unfortunate gender-binary myopia of early 21st century american societal eyes, apparently female but actually a kind of hermaphrodite.
the actual fruition thereof was "going full time" as a woman and taking the hormone replacement therapy in my case.
so, woman? Yes. female? No.
Love is the law, love under will
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I see. Thanks for the clarification!
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@Edward Mason said
"
Quote:
It is my opinion that the lead is not gold by default, nor is the genitalia a means of expression by default.I'd respond to this, but I don't understand your meaning.
"What I was trying to say, is that you should not mistake what lead/genitalia symbolize and what they are.
Though lead has the potential to become gold, you are not going to go out and start making ornaments of lead, are you ? Gold still being more worthwhile than lead because of the effort (energy) put into it during purification.
The same logic (if I am managing to be clearer) can be applied to the genitalia. While the genitalia can be utilized to create a bridge of union during a ritual , it is the ritual itself that turns it into a bridge of union.
In other words, you can have sex because it feels good or you can have sex in order to unite the divided. Sex, you could say, is always sex. A penis is always a penis. However, your intent, your Will can change its function and what it represents.
The genitalia transcends being a mark of our differing sexuality and becomes the instrument by which we are united.
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Do you mean "sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken" (Tyler Durden)
Because that sums up my whole point.
A thing is what it is, derived from its physical properties, and can not become other than it is.
Lead is lead and will always be lead, you can not refine lead into gold.
That which is shall ever be as it was.
I know that on a quantum level under very extreme circumstances we can fuse protons into a lead nucleus, to make gold atoms. That is besides the point.
It is best to use lead for its properties, and gold for its properties.
Do not summon the gnomes of the earth to teach the art of the sword, nor the Salamanders to stir the waters of insight.
You can not summon change the nature of the water of water cherubs to obey the seniors of the fire tablet.
Well, you can mix the planes, and attempt to force and constrain spirits to act in ways they are not fit, just as you can yoke your chariot to a school of fish, but dont expect positive results.
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Uni_Verse 93,
"
In other words, you can have sex because it feels good or you can have sex in order to unite the divided. Sex, you could say, is always sex. A penis is always a penis. However, your intent, your Will can change its function and what it represents. "Yes, agreed.
Thanks,
93 93/93,
EM
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EDIT : Was a response to Froclowns post
Yes, we both say "lead is lead" ; but we are talking about completely different things.
Everything in the universe is in constant flux and change.
You are not you , as what defines you is constantly changing. Waking up this morning, you were a totally different person. As, today you are "you + whatever happened yesterday." In an infinite loop. Tomorrow you will be "you + whatever happens today."
That is why YOU are going to die.
Me ? I was never alive to begin with. I am nothing more than the ghost left behind by a transition. An apparition. Sure, you could pass me by on the street and say hello. But the second you do, you are talking to a completely different person.You are talking to "me + knowledge of you"
:runs around in a spiraling pattern:
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@Froclown said
"
A thing is what it is, derived from its physical properties, and can not become other than it is.
"A small number examples of things that completely flout your premise. Nasty things..
Energy.
Atoms (and everything that is made of atoms which I gather is most things- ah well on we furrow)
Acorns.
Oak.
Sperm/Ovum.
A house after a fire.
A river.
Everest.
The earth.
The universe.
My opinion of you after reading your opinions on the trans gendered.I had a long long post but In retrospect I've given one of the oddest phrases I've encountered on a board the simple 'er I think you missed something' answer. Since, y'know, magicians base their entire ethos on 'change'.
Seriously. Did you read everything R.A.W wrote and then think 'Hey I'll diametrically disagree with him? That should bring some good discordian arguments!' Oh and I must use 'IS' at every opportunity.Time and place man. Time and place.
Oh and some of your moralizing really stinks. -
Fine, if you insist on denying the continuity of your existence, and define yourself as a progression of disconnected particulars, that is your option, but I was unaware that we where attempting to live our lives in the abyss.
but you can not deny that at a particular instant of time you are a particular way, with particular properties. and the progression to the next instant of time can only occur according to the properties you posses of the present instant of time.
That is everything is always changing, progressing according to its particular nature, but each thing is not infinitely free to change in any way whatsoever, but only according to its nature and the nature of the forces that act upon it.
You can not squeeze blood from a turnip.
A pumpkin does not just transform into a carriage.Things have specific qualities, and can only change in certain ways.
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Yes, I agree that it is possible to change physical sex. theoretically, if the DNA of every Cell were changed, and the whole body re-fabricated on the cellular level, including the physiology of the brain, the sex would be changed, but so would the psychology and identity of the person.
You would basically have taken apart one person and used the materials to make another person, with similar genetics, only lacking the Y chromosome, and adding an extra X, maybe a clone of the original X.
Painting a lead bar yellow doesn't make it gold. You have to change its whose atomic structure, in which case everything lead about it is lost, not just its color.
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@Froclown said
"Fine, if you insist on denying the continuity of your existence, and define yourself as a progression of disconnected particulars, that is your option, but I was unaware that we where attempting to live our lives in the abyss.
but you can not deny that at a particular instant of time you are a particular way, with particular properties. and the progression to the next instant of time can only occur according to the properties you posses of the present instant of time.
That is everything is always changing, progressing according to its particular nature, but each thing is not infinitely free to change in any waywhatsoever, but only according to its nature and the nature of the forces that act upon it.You can not squeeze blood from a turnip.
A pumpkin does not just transform into a carriage.Things have specific qualities, and can only change in certain ways."
I have no problem with the way you have put that just now. It is when you get all absolutist or reductionist and move the goalposts I have problems.
In any case it is a good model to be setting out from but I am prepared for that model to change.