Spare/Caroll and Sigils
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"Found it to be a very effective way to succesfully do "Result" oriented magick. (which in my personal opinion, is something more thelemites should be doing ... )"
Result oriented? Is there another kind of magick?
What kind of results? What are your definitions of result oriented magick and non-result oriented magick? 
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
i mucked around with this stuff a few years ago - it works fairly well, at least in my experience, but it's just not my bag of sauce.
i think it's great stuff, though, especially because it's (as you say) Result Oriented enough to get some armchair magicians off their duff and doing a bit more in the temple than just a banishing ritual or something
Love is the law, love under will
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I like chaos magick for its methodological approach, it aims at results rather than stagecraft, dancing around in robes and such for its own sake.
However, I have to say I dislike it based on its extreme skeptical nihilism. It claims to only avoid dogma, but what it ends up doing in becoming hostile to not only dogmatic assertions, but to all explanations, all thought, and to reality itself and ones own TRUE WILL.
Chaos magick actively asserts, that no matter what, you are wrong, not because you fall short of the ability to get he right answer, but because there is nothing to get.
NOTHING IS TRUE!!" beams the dogmatic voice of the Chaoites super Ego.
Did I just see the thing I saw, did I leave the stove on, did I murder my parents? YES NO" MAYBE! There is no Truth, no thought is true!
Thus this toxicity to reality, this assertion of ones impotence to observe correctly (as there is no correct) is the anethma of TRUE WILL.
Chaos gives us a powerful methodology, while at the same time stripping us as the quality that allow us to direct that power, THE WILL, ie the REALITY.
Chaos magick is like an atom bomb that the more powerful the boom, the weaker the guidance system.
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@Jonathan said
"Anyone else experimented with AO Spares Sigilization methods?"
check out this organization
and/or this in particualr www.topy.net/library.html
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@gmugmble said
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@gerry456 said
"check out this organizationAh, yes -- thee venerable path ov attaining thee sublime gnosis thru spelling wurds rong."
either i'm a little paranoid and you are implying that i have spelt the word "organization/organisation" wrong in which case
here is an online dictionary link for you
or·gan·i·za·tion (ôrg-n-zshn)
n.
1.
a. The act or process of organizing.
b. The state or manner of being organized: a high degree of organization.
2. Something that has been organized or made into an ordered whole.
3. Something made up of elements with varied functions that contribute to the whole and to collective functions; an organism.- A group of persons organized for a particular purpose; an association:
as in temple Of Psychic Youth
a benevolent organization.
5.
a. A structure through which individuals cooperate systematically to conduct business.
b. The administrative personnel of such a structure.OR you are referring to the TOPY technique of linguistic sabotage (spelling words in a different manner (e.g. coum-placency)) as a breakdown of "control".
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@gerry456 said
"either i'm a little paranoid and you are implying that i have spelt the word "organization/organisation" wrong"
You're being paranoid. My post was a reaction to the preferred literary style of "Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth".
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thankyou brother this cyber typescript communication is not as fluent old -fashioned normal face to face interaction.
Anyway on the subject of TOPY word-changing. I beLIEve the technique is inspired by Willima Burroughs' "cut-up" tehcnique. The theory being that the words and language we use in our dysfunctional society are the mainstay of that chaos.
Some examples of TOPY/chaos magick wordplay as follows
beLIEf
coum-placency
coum-unity
psycho-the-rapist
Xian Xianity
but; butter
of ov
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@MQL said
"
"Found it to be a very effective way to succesfully do "Result" oriented magick. (which in my personal opinion, is something more thelemites should be doing ... )"Result oriented? Is there another kind of magick?
What kind of results? What are your definitions of result oriented magick and non-result oriented magick? "let me explain that when i say "results oriented magick" i'm refering to magick that creates verifiable results. Its all well and good to do some working to say, banish fear that would impede me from doing my Will; however, I'm not really going to be able to verify those results for some time.. however, if say I need a job - and I do a working to create wealth or the means to it, and two days later I get a phone call with someone offering me a job, well my magick worked!
I think people often times have a fear based approach to magick, fear that it won't work (so hence, they don't do any magick that they can see results from) or maybe even fear that it will, and golly jee - since I don't have K&C yet I might be using my powers for gasp evil purposes!
I thank Mithras I wasn't raised christian
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@Froclown said
"I like chaos magick for its methodological approach, it aims at results rather than stagecraft, dancing around in robes and such for its own sake.
However, I have to say I dislike it based on its extreme skeptical nihilism. It claims to only avoid dogma, but what it ends up doing in becoming hostile to not only dogmatic assertions, but to all explanations, all thought, and to reality itself and ones own TRUE WILL.
Chaos magick actively asserts, that no matter what, you are wrong, not because you fall short of the ability to get he right answer, but because there is nothing to get.
NOTHING IS TRUE!!" beams the dogmatic voice of the Chaoites super Ego.
Did I just see the thing I saw, did I leave the stove on, did I murder my parents? YES NO" MAYBE! There is no Truth, no thought is true!
Thus this toxicity to reality, this assertion of ones impotence to observe correctly (as there is no correct) is the anethma of TRUE WILL.
Chaos gives us a powerful methodology, while at the same time stripping us as the quality that allow us to direct that power, THE WILL, ie the REALITY.
Chaos magick is like an atom bomb that the more powerful the boom, the weaker the guidance system."
One can (like Crowley) use the techniques and methods of other systems without following its belief system you know.
That being said, I think you missed the point of Carroll's ideas here..
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"let me explain that when i say "results oriented magick" i'm refering to magick that creates verifiable results. Its all well and good to do some working to say, banish fear that would impede me from doing my Will; however, I'm not really going to be able to verify those results for some time.. however, if say I need a job - and I do a working to create wealth or the means to it, and two days later I get a phone call with someone offering me a job, well my magick worked!"
Like you said yourself, you may not be able to see the results as quickly, that's not the same as not getting results. The problem is that most of the really transformative deep inner work takes time to develop, and it takes patience and determination to persist without getting what we want Right Now. Besides, I personally can think of a lot of other things to employ magick for besides getting a job. I usually just put out apps.
"I think people often times have a fear based approach to magick, fear that it won't work (so hence, they don't do any magick that they can see results from) or maybe even fear that it will, and golly jee - since I don't have K&C yet I might be using my powers for gasp evil purposes!"
Having performed work of the long-term variety for many years now I can say that the results are quite apparent. Personally I don't fear any of these things you mention, I just place more importance on Self knowledge and development than I do on 'powers' or manifesting neat phenomenon that doesn't really do anything for me that I couldn't have accomplished by a few hours of pounding the pavement, or some equally simple task. Wanting things right now, without working for them is great, but not very realistic. And really, it's not that hard learn to 'make shit happen' (in fact we all are doing it constantly, though not necessarily consciously) but to surrender the ego to the Self, to come to knowledge of your purpose in life and of how best to implement that Will in the world well... isn't that worth working and waiting for? To become a true Adept, or a true Master, one must not stop half way up the mountain because one has come across an amusement park, IMO.
"I thank Mithras I wasn't raised christian"
Osirus say's your welcome!
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Exactly Thelema and the White brother hood in general, means discovering ones natural place, working with the limits of nature, and manifesting ones potential in a way that contributes meaningfully to the world.
Magick is not meant to be a complete denial in the real world, a means of ignoring the natural laws, a method of self deception that one has powers beyond the limits of the world, Nor is it a means to conquer the world and recreate it is ones own image. This is what the dark stars attempt to do and eventually they are crushed under the weight of all the Reality they alienate themselves from. Their Ego, severed from the natural world becomes empty and valueless, they loose that very thing they sought to empower.
"nature in order to be commanded must be obeyed." Rand
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First of all, I have myself used the sigils you speak of with success. Creating something of your own and then making it strange to the sight seems to be an effective method of getting results from the sigils. Whenever I look at the sigil I have created, it almost seems to take on a sentient essence. I have noticed spare felt the same way and would often draw faces and limbs etc on his sigils...perhaps we have this similarity due to the fact that I am also an artist.
Although sigil magick and other such usery (grey, result oriented, what have you) may be "neat", it is also, effective and helpful. Why throw away the proverbial favorite hammer in the tool box so you have to pound in the nails with your palm? A solid practitioner is well grounded in both mysticism and magick.
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I have to say some of the reply's here make me wonder what Thelemites find wrong with the Divinity of who they are now.
It seems that one must have a really really low self esteem to be a thelemite b/c obviously one's own ego and consciousness now is totally in the wrong, unholy and can't possibly know whats good for them even on a malkuth level..
i'll leave you to that reality, myself, i'll live in a magickal one where i actually can have a say in what i experience. After all, I am the Angel incarnate on Malkuth!
but in less reaction based terms.. there is the Path of the Magician, which finds that his experience is his biggest initiator, which is experienced through the experiences created by his Magick.
and of course one must do the things in this world which enable ones magick to manifest, to summon a spirit to get you a job, while not putting forth any means for that job to manifest (such as applying for one) is very bad juju indeed, and may just get a spirit rather upset with you (not fun in my experience). So yes, in that example, its a two-fold working. And that was only one easily refered to example.
this has devolved from a topic about a method of Magick, to a question of why one uses Magick...
self evolution? well first before I worry about K&C I need to worry about such things as food, shelter and companionship.. you know, those basic human needs? kinda hard to worry about union with the divine or whatnot when one is worried about rent for the next month.
jeesh, for a path created by the author of "magick in theory and PRACTICE" there sure is a lot of negativity associated with PRACTICE.
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If one can not provide food for oneself, then it would be better to physically get off your ass and figure something out.
If however, the reason you fail to provide food and shelter is that you have "spirits" which is to say psychological complexes or acquired habits that sabotage your efforts, Then rather that direct your magick at the results of attaining a loaf of bread or a night is a shelter, it might be more effective if you work with the "spirits" and that is with balancing out ones inner space, the subconscious mind. The end result of a balanced mind, is the dissolution of the ego awareness, As the ego itself is nothing but a soap box on which various "spirits" or complexes use to attempt to influence their unbalanced needs into the behavior. The balance of these inner voices, cancels out against each other, the conscious ego becomes quiet. The TRUE WILL then manifests, rather that the various unbalanced desires seeking gratification and control of the flesh to those ends, ie obsessions, addictions, fidgeting, etc.
Thus, by seeking K&C the lesser practical issues will clear up on their own, as if by magick.
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@Froclown said
"If one can not provide food for oneself, then it would be better to physically get off your {@$$} and figure something out.
If however, the reason you fail to provide food and shelter is that you have "spirits" which is to say psychological complexes or acquired habits that sabotage your efforts, Then rather that direct your magick at the results of attaining a loaf of bread or a night is a shelter, it might be more effective if you work with the "spirits" and that is with balancing out ones inner space, the subconscious mind. The end result of a balanced mind, is the dissolution of the ego awareness, As the ego itself is nothing but a soap box on which various "spirits" or complexes use to attempt to influence their unbalanced needs into the behavior. The balance of these inner voices, cancels out against each other, the conscious ego becomes quiet. The TRUE WILL then manifests, rather that the various unbalanced desires seeking gratification and control of the flesh to those ends, ie obsessions, addictions, fidgeting, etc.
Thus, by seeking K&C the lesser practical issues will clear up on their own, as if by magick."
thank you for illustrating my point, you see.. you, following the path of the Mystic might find that to be the case, myself, following the path of the Magician, might find it necessary to say "set one's affairs in order" before venturing upon higher paths, and find that the skills gained in doing so make the rest of the journay that much easier.... its not a better or worse sort of argument, what it is (in my goal here) is illustrating the difference in the fact that there IS different paths to attainment, one most easily refered to as the path of the mystic vs. the path of the magician or as Dion Fortune puts it, the path of the Mystic vs. the path of the Occultist.
What personally I find a big issue with, is the idea that one cannot or SHOULD NOT be a magician without the mystic attainment of K&C.
Do I disagree with the basic idea of achieving K&C? NO!
do I think that life might be a hell of a lot more interesting and fulfilling after K&C? YES!
however.....
Am I not STILL a magician before I reach that attainment of K&C?
YES YES YES!I chose to live as a magican.. hence Maya (reality) is my playground..
