"We have nothing with the outcast"
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
As Quintessence always says, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
I think you should recognize that the magical path is not separate from your life. The former issue will not be necessary solved. Successful magical practice involves successful communication and manipulation of social cues, which most people do instinctively. If you cant cause change in conformity with will in the social sphere, its obvious you are not a good magician.
This point seems to pass by most occultists.
IAO131
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@Her said
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@Aum418 said
"If you cant cause change in conformity with will in the social sphere, its obvious you are not a good magician."Crowley must have been a terrible magician then.
"Thats why you're here, right? You never heard of him?
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
What if the person who doesn't fit in socially has himself sorted out?
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93,
I'm not really sure that "not fitting in socially" is the same as having a self-defeatist attitude, but then, I'm not really sure what "not fitting in socially" really means.
If you mean someone who has some kind of personality disorder, like anti-social personality disorder, then I'm not confident that magickal work can be of much use.
If you're saying that a person is simply regarded as being outside social circles, I expect that describes a lot of occultists.
If you're saying that someone is suffering from anxiety, or social awkwardness, then I think regular meditation can be a good step towards curing that.
If you want a more specific answer I'm afraid you'll have to clarify the question.
Love=Law
- C
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
It seems that you were addressing me, so I'll answer as if you were.
@ThatNarrowFellow said
"93,
I'm not really sure that "not fitting in socially" is the same as having a self-defeatist attitude, but then, I'm not really sure what "not fitting in socially" really means.
If you mean someone who has some kind of personality disorder, like anti-social personality disorder, then I'm not confident that magical work can be of much use.
If you're saying that a person is simply regarded as being outside social circles, I expect that describes a lot of occultists.
If you're saying that someone is suffering from anxiety, or social awkwardness, then I think regular meditation can be a good step towards curing that.
If you want a more specific answer I'm afraid you'll have to clarify the question.
Love=Law
- C"
First off, my post was a statement, not a question.
Second, to clarify my position. The way I see it (and I’m often wrong, I warn you) one is outcast who thinks himself outcast. One who knows himself the master of his own universe is the master of his own universe. One who is outside social circles is not outcast unless he professes (even internally) a desire to be a part of those social circles.
As we see our reality, so it is. Some play the “I’m powerless” game, some play the “I’m powerful” game. It seems to me that the verse (and much of the chapter) is describing a way of looking at the world like “You’re not powerless, but if you want to pretend like you are then go wallow somewhere else.”
So I guess what I was getting at was that ‘outcast’ and ‘unfit’ are titles that self defeatists give themselves and not objective qualities possessed by such people.
The difference between this:
[i248.photobucket dot com/albums/gg179/AC666AC/mage.jpg]and this:
[i248.photobucket dot com/albums/gg179/AC666AC/400px-MtSorrow-Watercolor.jpg]is perspective.
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93,
I'm sorry, my post was unclear, the result of posting in the morning with friends hurrying me to take a shower and leave.
The first part of my post was directed to you, and now I get what you're saying, thanks.
The rest of it was an attempt to clarify what the original poster was asking, which is as yet unresolved.
Love=Law
- C
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
yeah it's my question/thread
personality disorders aside
.....y'see the BOL obviously assumes that the in-crowd are people who practice magick
i just wanted your thoughts on that passage. Someone rightly pointed out the subjective interpretation of outcast. That's it. I guesse teh "keen th eproud .beauty and strength" are similarly passages of BOL which are subjective
to me that passage about the "outcast" is directed toward magickal misanthropists
however the "jocks" and "cheerleaders" (the popular crowd) in highschool are the in-crowd right?
i don't know*that *is the question
i think it's a fascinating debate of a wide ranging substance ie is the "stamping down on the wrteched and weak" directed to the high -school jock contingents (who get to have sex with the cutest cheerleaders) in regards to computer nerds and geeks (who don't) ?
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93,
Since we are all unique, and privately each of us is mad by any conceivable consensual definition, the idea of an in-crowd is obviously a mask for a given group of people's insecurity. If a standard of achievable conformity is set up by people who want to conform to it, then they <i>can</i> conform to it, and ignore the inner promptings that keep whispering "Isn't there more to life than this?"
The jocks will be jocks, because it's easy for them, and feels safe. The geeks, ditto. Unwashed occultists, the same. The point of such cliques isn't to do with realizing the True Will, but to maintain camouflage that prevents the people <i>in</i> the in-crowd</i> from seeing what they're doing to themselves. Thus, the jocks hit non-jocks who make them aware of this, the geeks talk down to people who make them feel too geeky, and the unwashed occultists pretend they have superior wisdom to everyone else.
You can extend this up the scale as far as you want. "A stable society requires certain standards." "Normal behavior requires people to act normally." "Our country needs me to fight." "What would Jesus do?" "The Prophet taught we have to do this."
A magician, once he/she truly embarks on a magical path, is doomed. The sense of uniqueness won't disappear, but gets stronger over the years until one day (hopefully), the dam bursts.
Still, being obnoxious or exclusive towards other people isn't useful, because other people are helpers, teachers and, thankfully, sometimes friends. We can find small communities that help us grow. But if we define ourselves in terms of acceptability to some presumed or assumed standard of proper behavior, then the pillar is never 'stablished in the void. It'll just float there like a sad cloud of hopes ... rather like a microcosm of the people in an in-crowd.
93 93/93,
EM
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93,
I assumed BOL = Book of the Law. An unwashed occultist, as I visualized it, is someone whose knowledge of magick is broad, casual and shallow, and often loudly, dogmatically and argumentatively stated to the liquid accompaniment of as many cheap beers as may be available.
But feel free to refine that image as seems fit.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Since we are all unique, and privately each of us is mad by any conceivable consensual definition, the idea of an in-crowd is obviously a mask for a given group of people's insecurity. If a standard of achievable conformity is set up by people who want to conform to it, then they <i>can</i> conform to it, and ignore the inner promptings that keep whispering "Isn't there more to life than this?"
The jocks will be jocks, because it's easy for them, and feels safe. The geeks, ditto. Unwashed occultists, the same. The point of such cliques isn't to do with realizing the True Will, but to maintain camouflage that prevents the people <i>in</i> the in-crowd</i> from seeing what they're doing to themselves. Thus, the jocks hit non-jocks who make them aware of this, the geeks talk down to people who make them feel too geeky, and the unwashed occultists pretend they have superior wisdom to everyone else.
You can extend this up the scale as far as you want. "A stable society requires certain standards." "Normal behavior requires people to act normally." "Our country needs me to fight." "What would Jesus do?" "The Prophet taught we have to do this."
A magician, once he/she truly embarks on a magical path, is doomed. The sense of uniqueness won't disappear, but gets stronger over the years until one day (hopefully), the dam bursts.
Still, being obnoxious or exclusive towards other people isn't useful, because other people are helpers, teachers and, thankfully, sometimes friends. We can find small communities that help us grow. But if we define ourselves in terms of acceptability to some presumed or assumed standard of proper behavior, then the pillar is never 'stablished in the void. It'll just float there like a sad cloud of hopes ... rather like a microcosm of the people in an in-crowd.
93 93/93,
EM"
hey
i heard the sound of a hammer hitting a nail on the head in your reply
yes BOL=Liber Al Book of Law
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"A magician, once he/she truly embarks on a magical path, is doomed. The sense of uniqueness won't disappear, but gets stronger over the years until one day (hopefully), the dam bursts. "
Great visual. By the way, talking about metaphysics while drinking lots of beer is an OK past time in my book. I understand that the conversation depends on the drinkers involved, but beer itself has nice connotations for me.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
I think the person who does not fit in socially is more likely a better candidate on the magical path. To fit in means you conform to the culture, customs, and will of the group mind. However, it is a necessary skill to walk among and interact with any elements in any social situation without arising suspicion, infiltrate and accomplish the task, then go about the magickal way. If lucky, you may encounter some kindred along the way. To abstract from such chains in this incarnation or the next, the social aspect will be different each time but the magickal will and law will remain. The festering cesspool called human civilization is but another illusion. Liber AL vel Legis makes reference to this, and provides the tools to go about it.
There is a difference however between 'fitting in' and taking care of neurosis or worse, as these things can be amplified by unlocking magickal energies. Regardie recommended this highly before going too far. Maybe this is the question you are asking.
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
Ressurecting an old thread, deal with it.
I think a better way to look at this verse is more look at the A.'.A.'. & the ordeals that take an initiate out. The outcast & the unfit seen as the failures & the Secret Chiefs withdraw their support etc. Don't think of it as a reflection on someone's social standing or monetary income & it becomes much clearer when the Book of the Law is so violent in it's imagery.
Uranus
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might not this declaration of the law mean that we are to have nothing with out castes, Literally.
What I mean is that as I see it Thelema is not rooted in liberalism or any sort of modernism, it encourages a very strong self-empowering elitist attitude. Where as modern social and political philosophy stems from egalitarian notions than we should have empathy and compassion for the weak, the homeless, the racial minority, the mental retarded, even so far as to use Political correct language least calling a spade a spade where he can here us, upset his feelings.
Thelema is to do away with all of this, and impose harsh standards on others, those who fail to meet up with ones standards are unfit and caste out of the social order. "Kings shall be kings forever, the slaves shall serve"
Is not Liber AL, a call for extreme right wing traditionalism, even a sort of monarchy. Does not the OTO have more in common with Plato's republic and Evola's Tradition than with communism and leftist democracy?
Was it not Nietzsche who made the cut as a saint and Christ for his slave-mentality that set back the progress of the A.'.A.'. by centuries dubbed the title "Black sorcerer of Nazareth"