True Will... How do you put it to use in daily life?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@ThatNarrowFellow said
"Firstly, I don't think I can agree with you that no two Wills can contradict one another."I regard this as being a root postulate of Thelema, virtually the baseline of its entire moral, physical, and metaphysical philosophy, and certainly of its practice."
[...] The baseline of Thelemic moral philosophy is Do what thou wilt. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt."
Yes - and what, then does this mean? "
It means that you cannot say a priori that any action is wrong.
"It is popular in some quarters (including but not limited to those young in Thelema( to interpret this from a primarily Hadit point of view. It's a mistake to exclude the Nuit aspect, wherein it is understood that no part exists except as it is part of the whole. "Do what thou wilt" does not have an individual acting indifferent to or unrelated to the environment (for example) - rather (using the metaphor of astronomical bodies whose paths are determined in part by the perturbations of all other matter in the universe), one's way is necessarily a product of the the way of each and all."
Thats exactly my point: from the Nuit view, stars do collide and its fucking magnificent.
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"What do you define as 'actual conflict'? Physical death?"Irrelevant. Nothing so mundane. I suppose one way of explaining is to say that the universe does not require incompatible things from its various components. "
This isnt irrelevant at all. If you say there is no conflict but people are still being raped and murdered, most people would disagree with you. Are you simply saying that since there is conflict - pain, sorrow, death, etc. - that they are part of the natural way of things and therefore not 'conflicting'? I am absolutely certain that when most people read "stars don't collide," they think of arguments and physical interference.
"This is probably a semantical difference. I agree that chaos and turmoil have energy in play and released. But to the extent a being is moving with increasing power, that being is moving with increasing peace."
Semantic indeed - I just enjoy contradicting well-held ideas like that attainment = peace.
"In any case, it isn't a prejudice - it was a discovery. That is, it wsn't a pre-judgment or theory, it was an observation."
Observations are interpretations filtered through your own prejudices. That being said, I get what you're saying.
"Admittedly, he often wrote of them in confusing ways, though in a couple of places he made clear a distinction. - My distinction is because these are (usually) such dramatically different developmental stages along the path, sometimes separated by many years. "
I see: Convenience is our Canon of Truth.
"I'm sorry if drawing distinctions between two related but distinct things confuses you. The language that usually has served me best is to say that the True Will is the "voice" of the HGA moving through one - not a spoken voice any more than "knowledge and conversation" means "facts and dialogue," but rather the word of your being vibrated within the vehicles of your manifestation. "
I see: HGA is the static 'entity' and the True Will is the dynamic aspect thereof. Would this be a fair assessment of your view?
"The conscious identification and grasping of this commonly occurs long before the particular intimacies that are meant by the phrase "knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.""
I see, like the Vision of Adonai in Malkuth?
When Crowley says "You must know your True Will" do you think he is talking about knowledge as in "My Will is to do X" or is it more of an experiential 'knowing' as in gnosis... becoming one with your Way? I tend towards the latter since it seems reason can do nothing except limit & restrict the will by trying to define it.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
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[...] The baseline of Thelemic moral philosophy is Do what thou wilt. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt."Yes - and what, then does this mean? "
It means that you cannot say a priori that any action is wrong."
I agree - a priori and out of context. But knowing that a particular action is wrong is quite different from knowing the underlying principles of how the universe works. (Dave Letterman's "Will It Float" bit is a wonderful example of this. Knowing the relevant laws of physics concerning boyancy doesn't mean you can a priori know whether a particular thing will float - until you know more of the particulars about the particular thing.)
As an aside, and with acknowledgement that the meanings of "right" and "wrong" present a whole 'nuther layer of the intellectual debate - In context, I think every being does know, or have the capacity to know, what is right in a particular situation. Only personality layering and aberration interfere with this. One of the hallmarks of advancing spirituality is the frequency and reliability with which an individual makes right choices. But, intellectually and out of context, you can't second guess the rider in the saddle.
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"What do you define as 'actual conflict'? Physical death?"Irrelevant. Nothing so mundane. I suppose one way of explaining is to say that the universe does not require incompatible things from its various components. "
This isnt irrelevant at all. If you say there is no conflict but people are still being raped and murdered, most people would disagree with you."
I consider it irrelevant whether they agree with me.
Also, we were discussing True Will, not the uncountably vast number of actions that aren't in conformity with True Will. Human personalities have enormously powerful Won't Power that resists (at the cost of much pain, especially to the resister) acting in conformity with True Will.
"Are you simply saying that since there is conflict - pain, sorrow, death, etc. - that they are part of the natural way of things and therefore not 'conflicting'? I am absolutely certain that when most people read "stars don't collide," they think of arguments and physical interference. "
BTW (since you keep bringing it up), I haven't said "stars don't collide" once in this thread. I've said that there is no inherent conflict between any two or more expressions of True Will in the universe.
So, back to your main question in the quoted section - Yes, there is friction, conflict, sorrow, and of course death etc. in human interaction, the field of nature, etc. I'm saying that, inasmuch as most people spend most of their time acting both ignorant of and at odds with their own True Will, this is all irrelevant to the question of whether there is any inherent conflict in the arena of True Will.
To be clearer: In this matter, I'm using the definition of conflict as "a state of disharmony between incompatible or antithetical persons, ideas, or interests." (There is polarization between antithetical elements, but that's an expression of their harmony - the essence of polarizations.)
"I see: Convenience is our Canon of Truth."
This is an issue of a label, and labels exist entirely for convenience. If the label is to be useful, it has to be attached to something more or less specific, and then we can use it to discuss similarities and differences between two things with different labels. (MadamImAdam.)
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"I'm sorry if drawing distinctions between two related but distinct things confuses you. The language that usually has served me best is to say that the True Will is the "voice" of the HGA moving through one - not a spoken voice any more than "knowledge and conversation" means "facts and dialogue," but rather the word of your being vibrated within the vehicles of your manifestation. "I see: HGA is the static 'entity' and the True Will is the dynamic aspect thereof. Would this be a fair assessment of your view?"
Nope. Nothing static (in any sense of the word that makes sense to me) about the HGA.
Let me add to the above (even though I think I've said this before, but maybe not clearly enough): The perception (by whatever means) of the nature of oneself and one's right momentum in life, and the conscious assimilation of those perceptions and ability to articulate them, commonly occurs before the time that one experiences the source of those intimations, and usually long before one has become so intimately familiar with that source that one can and will consciously surrender the template of one's subconsciousness to its ongoing writing.
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"The conscious identification and grasping of this commonly occurs long before the particular intimacies that are meant by the phrase "knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.""I see, like the Vision of Adonai in Malkuth? "
Kinda, yeah. (This at least distinguishes "Vision of the HGA" from "K&C of the HGA."
"When Crowley says "You must know your True Will" do you think he is talking about knowledge as in "My Will is to do X" or is it more of an experiential 'knowing' as in gnosis... becoming one with your Way? I tend towards the latter since it seems reason can do nothing except limit & restrict the will by trying to define it."
There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence. Now, that sentence isn't going to mean as much to someone else as it means to you, but it is likely to be self-evident to those who know you best. It should summarize, in a concise phrase, the root principle underlying every desire, motivation, nightmare, peak moment, embarassment, etc. of your whole life, and yet entirely explain you to yourself.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence."
And in the 11th minute he prevailed!
@Duty said
"5. Find the formula of this purpose, or "True Will", in an expression as simple as possible."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"As an aside, and with acknowledgement that the meanings of "right" and "wrong" present a whole 'nuther layer of the intellectual debate - In context, I think every being does know, or have the capacity to know, what is right in a particular situation. Only personality layering and aberration interfere with this. One of the hallmarks of advancing spirituality is the frequency and reliability with which an individual makes right choices. But, intellectually and out of context, you can't second guess the rider in the saddle."
I agree - I was pointing towards the fact that ANOTHER person could never say a priori whether something was 'right' or someone else's true Will.
"BTW (since you keep bringing it up), I haven't said "stars don't collide" once in this thread. I've said that there is no inherent conflict between any two or more expressions of True Will in the universe."
I'm using the star metaphor.
"To be clearer: In this matter, I'm using the definition of conflict as "a state of disharmony between incompatible or antithetical persons, ideas, or interests." (There is polarization between antithetical elements, but that's an expression of their harmony - the essence of polarizations.)"
Well that sums it up nicely.
"Nope. Nothing static (in any sense of the word that makes sense to me) about the HGA."
I meant: Noun = HGA, Verb = Will. Static as in its a name and Will is dynamic in that its an action. Static smacks of stagnation so its a bad word choice.
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"I see, like the Vision of Adonai in Malkuth? "Kinda, yeah. (This at least distinguishes "Vision of the HGA" from "K&C of the HGA.""
Right - I was simply using the traditional Qabalistic names, referring to hte fact that they even mention this same (or at least similar) doctrine of being aware of before being completely in tune.
"There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence. "
I seriously doubt he said that. He probably meant a sublime, simple formula like, say, Thelema. (He says 'an expression'... could this not also be a symbol like a Lamen?) I've used 'Growth' in the past as a ruach-reflection of Chiah.
"Now, that sentence isn't going to mean as much to someone else as it means to you, but it is likely to be self-evident to those who know you best. It should summarize, in a concise phrase, the root principle underlying every desire, motivation, nightmare, peak moment, embarassment, etc. of your whole life, and yet entirely explain you to yourself."
Right, I agree. But I think I was getting at the sort of Magus Curse where any kind of Word has its corresponding falsity because of the nature of Language.
Very interesting conversation, Jim. I like concise answers.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"I meant: Noun = HGA, Verb = Will. Static as in its a name and Will is dynamic in that its an action. Static smacks of stagnation so its a bad word choice."
Got it. I agree (to the extent that words don't lock us into still more problems!).
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"There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence. "I seriously doubt he said that. He probably meant a sublime, simple formula like, say, Thelema. (He says 'an expression'... could this not also be a symbol like a Lamen?) I've used 'Growth' in the past as a ruach-reflection of Chiah."
See my "11th minute" follow-up. I'm quite certain he meant something concrete such as his articulation of his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The phrase 'next step' meant something different to him at different times - Initially it meant "To teach the K&C of the HGA," and later, as a Magus, "To promulgate the Law of Thelema." But the core idea behind these specific manifestations remained consistent. (It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)
PS - Yes, some people would have other ways of expressing it besides words, though I think Crowley definitely had a concise sentence in mind.
"Right, I agree. But I think I was getting at the sort of Magus Curse where any kind of Word has its corresponding falsity because of the nature of Language."
Yes. But I think you actually mean that variant which is "intellect, which exists as a phenomenon below the Abyss."
I think this is a place where paradox and heroism meet: In bringing any sublime truth down the planes, into manifestation, we're going to degrade it. (That isn't a pejorative, just a description.) So, whether we are trying to enact an Atziluthic impulse in Assiah, or express a sublime and transcendant truth in language, we are going to fuck it up; but we just have to do it anyway. The only alternative is to not bring it down the planes - which is an avoidance of the Great Work. Though it may rip your heart to shreds to grasp the most intimate and sublime TRUTH of yourself and, despite your highest and best efforts, be able only to cast it into an utter profanation when you articulate it, you just have to deal with the shredded meat in your chest. The spiritual virtue is in having genuinely given it your highest and best effort.
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To fill my heart with love and joy, first I got to make a Space
Sit back inside it, and it just reclines and reclines and reclines
The spirit is Ginsberg's moloch who's eyes are a thousand blind windows.
And whose soul is electricity and banks!93 93/93
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@The Lover said
"Your destiny is already set. Fill your heart with love and joy. Sit back and let that spirit take over."
"I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer." -The Gay Science, Friedrich Nietzsche, pt.276
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No one has to remind the lover to remember the beloved, for the lover sees the beloved's face everywhere.
Thy music causeth my soul to dance; in the murmur of the wind I hear Thy flute; the waves of the sea keep the rhythm of my dancing steps. Through the whole of nature I hear Thy music played, my Beloved; my soul while dancing speaketh of its joy in song.
-Hazrat Inayat Khan
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
"I meant: Noun = HGA, Verb = Will. Static as in its a name and Will is dynamic in that its an action. Static smacks of stagnation so its a bad word choice."Got it. I agree (to the extent that words don't lock us into still more problems!).
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"There is at least one place - I spent 10 minutes looking for the quote last night, but couldn't find it (shoulda spent 11!) - where he quite specifically says that you should be able to articulate it in a simple, elegant sentence. "I seriously doubt he said that. He probably meant a sublime, simple formula like, say, Thelema. (He says 'an expression'... could this not also be a symbol like a Lamen?) I've used 'Growth' in the past as a ruach-reflection of Chiah."
See my "11th minute" follow-up. I'm quite certain he meant something concrete such as his articulation of his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The phrase 'next step' meant something different to him at different times - Initially it meant "To teach the K&C of the HGA," and later, as a Magus, "To promulgate the Law of Thelema." But the core idea behind these specific manifestations remained consistent. (It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)
PS - Yes, some people would have other ways of expressing it besides words, though I think Crowley definitely had a concise sentence in mind.
"Right, I agree. But I think I was getting at the sort of Magus Curse where any kind of Word has its corresponding falsity because of the nature of Language."
Yes. But I think you actually mean that variant which is "intellect, which exists as a phenomenon below the Abyss."
I think this is a place where paradox and heroism meet: In bringing any sublime truth down the planes, into manifestation, we're going to degrade it. (That isn't a pejorative, just a description.) So, whether we are trying to enact an Atziluthic impulse in Assiah, or express a sublime and transcendant truth in language, we are going to {shag} it up; but we just have to do it anyway. The only alternative is to not bring it down the planes - which is an avoidance of the Great Work. Though it may rip your heart to shreds to grasp the most intimate and sublime TRUTH of yourself and, despite your highest and best efforts, be able only to cast it into an utter profanation when you articulate it, you just have to deal with the shredded meat in your chest. The spiritual virtue is in having genuinely given it your highest and best effort."
The Tunis I believe a simple warning for those on the path...A warning that we may not like what we see when we look inside.....
Vs. 42 Liber AL “Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.”The process of self analysis involves certain risks.
Reference Pg. 167 **The Law Is For All ** Sorrow appears as the result of any unsuccessful, ill judged struggle.
The sole test of one’s Lordship is to know what our true will is, and to do it.
Beauty and strength, come from doing one’s will.
This statement I think is a sign post of the direction we would be heading in if indeed we are doing our Will....Reference Pg.198-215 "The Law Is For All" We must become aware of our true selves.
"The most common cause of failure in life is ignorance of one’s own True Will, or of the means by which to fulfill that Will." (from Magick, Book 4, p. 127)
How can we percieve to know our Will If we don't know ourself?
vs.46LiberAL “Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?”
Eckhart Tolle says in his book "A New Earth" The thought processes are conditioned through thousands and thousands of years of conditioning. And there is dysfunction built into the very structure of our thought processes. This is how the ego arises.
Theorem # 4 Magick In Theory And Practice The first requisite for causing any change is thorough qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions.
Theorem # 5 Magick In Theory And Practice The second requisite of causing any change is the practical ability to set in right motion the necessary forces.
Theorem #8 5 Magick In Theory And Practice A man whose conscious will is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently.
Tolle:
No matter how good your intentions are, when you're trapped in the ego, it will always take you into conflict eventually.Theorem #23 Magick In Theory And Practice
Magick is the Science of understanding oneself and one’s conditions. It is the Art of applying that understanding in actions.Eckhart Tolle...I believe speaks directly to this topic in his book "A New Earth"
He tells us, we all have a voice in our head, (a mental dialog). Some of these dialogs come from centuries of experiences, while others come from our families, culture, and other influences. These experiences come with a full-aray of emotions. When we are not conscious, these diologs along with the emotion attached to them take over while you are on auto pilot.
So, If we are to "Do what thou wilt" we must not be on auto piot. We must be awake! Present in the moment.
Tolle, describes how the attachment to these dialogs, and the emotions connected to them, feed the ego. The attachement of past events and feelings have a need to fill and is never saticfied. Every action or reaction to this kind of dialog is a means to an end....To feed the ego..."Most people are so completely identified with the voice in there head and the emotions that accompany them."
Tolle:
"As long as you are unaware of this, you take the thinker to be who you are. This is the egoic mind" ( not the true you) He also says that ,every thought, memory, interpretation, reaction ,and emotion is part of this egoic mind. And is "unconsciousness" spiritually speaking. -
@Jim Eshelman said
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See my "11th minute" follow-up. I'm quite certain he meant something concrete such as his articulation of his own True Will as "To teach the next step." The phrase 'next step' meant something different to him at different times - Initially it meant "To teach the K&C of the HGA," and later, as a Magus, "To promulgate the Law of Thelema." But the core idea behind these specific manifestations remained consistent. (It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)
"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?
"Eckhart Tolle says in his book "A New Earth" The thought processes are conditioned through thousands and thousands of years of conditioning. And there is dysfunction built into the very structure of our thought processes. This is how the ego arises. "
That sounds absurdly unempirical and like Buddhism. "Ego" isn't inherently a dysfunction. Once you recognize that its not the king in the country but merely the minister, it is not dysfunctional but quite helpful. The ego rises by the inherent structure of our thought & mind - the 'ahamkara' of Hinduism, or 'ego-making faculty'. It IS possible to eliminate it through both practice and in intellect (saying 'there is thought' rather than 'my thought' etc)
"No matter how good your intentions are, when you're trapped in the ego, it will always take you into conflict eventually. "
Who cares? Conflict isn't bad inherently unless you wish you were a rock or dead - Eckhart Tolle is a buddhist in disguise (a poorly veiled one). You might say that when you are TRAPPED in ego that UNNECESSARY conflict arises but if you understand the true place of ego in the hierarchy of one's Self, then your will can proceed in a less impeded fashion. Eckhart Tolle's philosophy is not coterminous with Thelema.
"So, If we are to "Do what thou wilt" we must not be on auto piot. We must be awake! Present in the moment. "
"reams are imperfections of sleep; even so is con-
sciousness the imperfection of waking.
Dreams are impurities in the circulation of the blood;
even so is consciousness a disorder of life.
Dreams are without proportion, without good
sense, without truth; so also is consciousness.
Awake from dream, the truth is known: awake
from waking, the Truth is - The Unknown."In a sense, 'auto-pilot' is the true Unconsciousness which drives all things
"Consciousness is a symptom of disease.
All that moves well moves without will.
All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to
ease.
Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult;
a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a
thousand thousand times a thousand thousand,
and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that
doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that
which is done well done.
Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt
from rock to rock of the moraine without ever
casting his eyes upon the ground."(both quotes from Book of Lies)
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?"
Not in the real (i.e., Sidereal) zodiac. If you're not familiar with this, see: olunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(It's also not a bad expression of his Virgo Sun / Aquarius Moon!)"Wasn't Crowley a Libra Sun?"
Not in the real (i.e., Sidereal) zodiac. If you're not familiar with this, see: olunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2"
Oh I see
IAO131
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I am a bit confused about how Crowleys astrology figures into this topic...Jim...perhaps you could explain this for me....
Also I believe our friend IAO is mistaken about the relativity about what Tolles says about the Ego...
I have just finished reading this book and found that although the book seems to focus on a healing...it goes right along with I have read in the reguired reading lists of OTO...A.A...etc...
perhaps **Jim **you would add your thoughts about this...
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@frzzlmom said
"I am a bit confused about how Crowleys astrology figures into this topic...Jim...perhaps you could explain this for me...."
The explanation is... It doesn't figure in. It's irrelevant to the subject. Crowley, like everyone in the West of his generation, was stuck in the Tropical zodiac delusion. The core proofs and discoveries for the Sidereal zodiac didn't start emerging until a couple of years before Crowley's death.
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93,
Can anyone tell me if I am remembering this right? I read a document on a website that I now can't locate that was attributed to Crowley, and that spelled out his vision for an ideal Thelemic society.
In it, he explained his notion of the slave race being a perfectly well-fed and industrious group kept under control by the more enlightened. I believe he used the phrase, "let them have their mutton." Or something to that effect. He further argued that the state should try to determine the true Will of children by a variety of means, including analysis of their birth charts.
I remember the background of the website was black, which irritated me. Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this document was? If it was real, how, if at all, does it relate to astrology and true Will?
love=law
- C
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This is very interesting....I can't imagine Crowley saying something like that....How could it be possible for some one else to really know the True Will of another since no two points of view can be exacly the same?
@ThatNarrowFellow said
"93,
Can anyone tell me if I am remembering this right? I read a document on a website that I now can't locate that was attributed to Crowley, and that spelled out his vision for an ideal Thelemic society.
In it, he explained his notion of the slave race being a perfectly well-fed and industrious group kept under control by the more enlightened. I believe he used the phrase, "let them have their mutton." Or something to that effect. He further argued that the state should try to determine the true Will of children by a variety of means, including analysis of their birth charts.
I remember the background of the website was black, which irritated me. Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this document was? If it was real, how, if at all, does it relate to astrology and true Will?
love=law
- C"
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Are you perchance speaking of his fictional work Atlantis?
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Possibly The Scientific Solution of the Problem of Government? It doesn't mention birth charts (or mutton!), but it does discuss how:
"Experts will immediately be appointed to work out, when need arises, the details of the True Will of every individual, and even that of every corporate body whether social or commercial, while a judiciary will arise to determine the equity in the case of apparently conflicting claims."
I wonder, though, if Crowley was just working out the logical implications here of a positive answer to the question: "Can the True Will of person X be determined by person Y?" I don't know if he actually believed the answer to this question is "yes."