Santeria & Qabalah
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Huh? I'm not sure what "exchange of Deity" means means. (Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"A 'superficial exchange of deity' meaning they work with the same spirits under different guises(that of the saint) - & I don't see how Santeria & Voudon could've originated seperately...the saitly covers used in Santeria were adopted to avoid persecution...most sources indicate that Santeria originated 'as a result of', not 'seperate from' Voudon.
@Jim Eshelman said
"and Orishas aren't deities, they're Orishas.)"
Even though they're viewed as sort of elemantal spirits, the Orishas are seen as the primary means of interaction between the practitioners & their primary deity Olorun...the Orishas are seen as a manifestation of Olorun.
616
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"
Santeria may have developed seperate from the Yourba people - but that is only because they were seperated from their native country. Santeria would not exist if it weren't for the religion of the Yourba people being taken through Cuba & the Americas.
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I thought that too...
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@Lapis said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"Santeria may have developed seperate from the Yourba people - but that is only because they were seperated from their native country. Santeria would not exist if it weren't for the religion of the Yourba people being taken through Cuba & the Americas."
Quite right.
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@KRVB MMShCh said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" Huh? I'm not sure what "exchange of Deity" means means. (Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"A 'superficial exchange of deity' meaning they work with the same spirits under different guises(that of the saint)"
Ah. Got it. Quite right.
"& I don't see how Santeria & Voudon could've originated seperately...the saitly covers used in Santeria were adopted to avoid persecution...most sources indicate that Santeria originated 'as a result of', not 'seperate from' Voudon."
The Haitian form of Voudoun is probably the earliest in the Western world, other localized forms spinning out of that. The slaves originating it were primarily West African, especially Ghanan. It underwent its own Catholicization to become the New World form of their Old World religion. Santeria is of primarily Cuban origin based on the Old World religion of the Yoruba people from Nigeria - a separately religion that underwent a separate Catholicization.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"and Orishas aren't deities, they're Orishas.)"Even though they're viewed as sort of elemantal spirits, the Orishas are seen as the primary means of interaction between the practitioners & their primary deity Olorun...the Orishas are seen as a manifestation of Olorun."
Yes. And that's an important distinction. They are actually more like the Holy Guardian Angel (in the Roman Catholic, rather than Western Mystery Tradition, sense) than they are like gods, but they are petitioned much as one would petition deities in other religions. (They are masked by Roman Catholic saints, but the means of petition and relationship is much more pagan the mainstream Catholic use of the saints.)
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indeed...we're on the same page
616
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I feel sorry for the Orishas.. They've already suffered one indignity, show them a little respect.
Jim - I find it hard to believe you do not have an opinion on the traditionalist vs. filing cabinet view of the Tree of Life.
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@h2h said
"Jim - I find it hard to believe you do not have an opinion on the traditionalist vs. filing cabinet view of the Tree of Life."
I didn't want to participate in derailing this thread into that direction, and I likely would end up in a squabble.
But I'll give it a sentence or two and then not participate in any back-and-forth on it: We regard the Tree of Life as the universal pattern (translate as, "best known to humanity") for interpreting conciousness on all levels, actualized and nonactualized. Therefore, anything that actually, authentically relates to human consciousness is most definitely expressible through the Tree.
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That's a great answer, thanks.
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Thanks for all the Info here on this subject.
I am a european linving for 15 years now in Venezuela. Always studying Kabbala, Tarot, Reiki ect. .
Recently I knew some people who practice Santeria here and I thought it would be interesting to study the subject a little. These people seems to practice the "white" santeria ( I have really no interest in the Black way) thats why I am interested to know something more from this religion.
I was looking for some information in relation with Kabbala to understand the the Orishas and what they stand for and I found your forum
Very interesting by the way.
I have a question about the 776 1/2 Book that is mentioned here. Does the book contains also correlation of the 22 paths for Santeria ? If so could you mention them here please ?
Thanks again for this great forum and the work that is done here.
Saludos -
Thanks a lot for the fast reply.
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After searching a little harder I found this on the net:
It is not exact Santeria but the Orishas or Deitys are nearly th same. It is from Kenneth Grant
The Afro Tantric Tarot of the Kalas I don't know what book and also it is in spanish but it includes the 22 path too.http://i52.tinypic.com/iqm2k2.jpg
0 : Olorun o Ol-i-orun; Olodumare; Oag-Ogo; Elemi; Emi.
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Obatala.
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Obatala; Orisha nla; Ala-morere; Orisha kpokpo; Alabalache; Orisha
oginia; Anansi. -
Odudua; Iya Agba; Ile.
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Chango; Jakuta.
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Ugun (Ogoun Badagris).
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Chango.
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Ifa; Odudua; Bango.
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Aje Chaluga.
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Iyemoja.
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Dada; Ile; Orisha Oko.
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Afefe; Oye; Orungan.
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Osanyin; Aroni.
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Oshu. El Buho (mensajero de Aje, la hechizera); Ochosi; Iyemoja;
Aidowedo; Togo; Anansi (fetiche Araña). -
Odudua; Ile; Champana.
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Ugun; Chango (aspecto marcial).
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Ife; Ile.
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Ibeji; Oro.
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Abiku; Elere; Ojehun; Opin Ijehun; Ebi.
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Dangbe; Aidowedo; Manamana; Selwanga.
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Ile Orishi Oko; Chougoudou.
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Chango.
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Egungun.
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Olokun; Olosa, Oya; Oba.
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Aidowedo; Ere; Dange.
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Aidowedo; Ochu-mare.
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Elegba; Eshu; Ongogo Ogo; Elegbara; Odun.
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Ugun; Ogoun Badagris.
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Odudua; Odo Iyemoja; Iyewa.
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Iyemoja; Ife; Adie-Irana; (Guia a Orun-rere).
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Orun; Eleda; Andanlosan; Ajahuto.
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Manamana; Orun-apadi; Egungun (como Juicio Final); Oro.
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Zangbeto; Ogboni; Egungun; Buje; Orun-rere; Odun.
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it's from his ''CULTS OF THE SHADOW''
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@h2h said
"The exchange has stuck in my mind over the years and is consistent with the advice given in Abramelin - that is, one should work within the tradition he or she was born and raised within and avoid mixing and matching, picking and choosing concepts he or she prefers. All paths lead to Rome but the point is to stick with the path one is born into - for reasons that become clear later.
I would be interested to hear opinions on the above.."
I think this is very good advice too. As a very young man I was yet another typical dupe who bought into all the anti-catholic bigotry and outright falsehoods that the bigots were so effectively brainwashing the world with.
I went off and began following an Eastern type mystic Path. After a couple decades I discovered that there was a contemplative tradition in the Roman Catholic practice that basically did the same thing that the eastern paths did. The Cloud of Unknowing clearly lays out a method that if adhered to as instructed would lead to the Highest states of Consciousness. The roadmap laid out was very thorough and covered the problems likely to be encountered in very clear fashion. For 900AD the work might well be an outline of Spiritual Practice that surpasses anything that any other culture might have produced at that point in time. It is written in a manner that is eminently understandable to the Western mind... unlike much of what I encountered in the Eastern traditions.
couldawouldashoulda....
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I think one should find and stick to the tradition which is one's own, but that it won't necessarily be the one into which you were born. Among magicians, it rarely is.
Even within this, of course, it is useful - almost mandatory - that one also be well-rounded in familiarity with other traditions.
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I agree totally with Jim here.
Here another comparision I found in the Book "Voodoo Praxis" by Papa Shanga (German)http://i53.tinypic.com/23wqwhx.jpg
And yes the other image was taken from Kenneth Grants "Cult of the Shadow"
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And another comparision:
This time between the Palo Mayombe, Cathlics Saints and Santeria Orishas
http://i56.tinypic.com/nm1f0k.gif -
@h2h said
"The exchange has stuck in my mind over the years and is consistent with the advice given in Abramelin - that is, one should work within the tradition he or she was born and raised within and avoid mixing and matching, picking and choosing concepts he or she prefers. All paths lead to Rome but the point is to stick with the path one is born into - for reasons that become clear later.
I would be interested to hear opinions on the above."
I would never be able to pursue the Protestant Xian path that I was born into. I find it incredibly stifling.
Also (center of pestilence alert!), my interpretation of various passages in the Book of the Law is that one of the tasks or "ordeals" in the new aeon is to abandon any nostalgic attachment to the religion of our childhood and find one's own unique path. -
@h2h said
"Mr. Schwartz did not reply but, judging from other remarks, it was clear that 1) he believes that Kabbalah and the Tree of Life should be studied strictly within the Jewish tradition and language and that 2) - to my surprise - he had a low opinion of 777 - possibly because AC felt no qualms about mapping Roman/Greek/Egyptian deities onto the Tree of Life."
Mr Schwartz does not practice Jewish Kabbalah his self, but does advocate practices that are considered dangerous in conventional Kabbalah. In fact, any suggestion of traditional Kabbalistic Theurgy as opposed to Thamaturgy receives a worse response from him than suggesting Crowley was a Holy person or that Thelema is a valid paradigm. He was very harsh when I suggested Talit and Tefillim were the traditional Kabbalistic "Magickal Tools". And then sent me a nasty nasty email because I am Sabbatian and have written articles on Sexual Theurgic practices for a Pagan Magazine. Mr Schwartz does have an excellent command of Hebrew grammar and linguistics but he is extremely prejudiced, and quite a hypocrite in my opinion. He attempts to give an unearned legitimacy to W. Gray's teachings as if they are in-line with traditional Kabbalah... they are not! and would be considered very negatively. Kabbalists in the Lurianic School "never" chant aloud. Some Sefardim do but this must be balanced with silent chanting. Mr Schwartz hides such dynamics from his students, and does not warn them of changes in the Ma'asah Mercabah that make the old ways very dangerous. He is a poser at best, and likes to name drop a family link to the Holy ARIZAL, OBM... while chastising any real Lurianic Kabbalists that cross his path.
M. Mathers tried to do use certain old methods with some Qliphotic Mercabah related material. The release of this lecture coincided with the Horos scandal where Mathers thought Madame Horos was the legendary Soror SDA. The fall from the Palace of Tifareth is described in the *Zohar * as the often observed "ego Inflation" of Occult leaders... they become "enamored of a false reflection" which they mistake for Deity and thus never realize they were shuttled into the "Other Side" of the Sefirah.
Regards,
Dennis -
The first time i've heard of the two being mentioned together is when i got New Orleans Voodoo Tarot (from someone born into Santeria: )
www.astroamerica.com/t-voodoo.html
I did couple of readings with it, with the accompanying book , it is an awesome reading deck and it seems to incorporate both somehow effortlessly, it all fits together... but for me personally its just too much info, i can't possibly be bothered to memorize all of it.