Magick: Subjective, or Objective.
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@RifRaf said
"Are we that dense we need to nit-pick things like this?
If you come across some other person (and this person is obviously not you)who is a Christian, they are their own person, not of you, detached from you, Objective. A 3 year old can recognize the difference."
Well there you go. According to AC, magickal stuff is as objective as that. There's a funny quote, I think in Magick Without Tears, where he says:
I have seen people turn fish-belly pale in the face, and come near fainting outright, when it has dawned upon them suddenly that magick is a real thing!
Me, I'm not so sure (I'm more sure of the mystical side of things), but there's the canonical late AC for you.
There would seem to be a contradiction between that and the bit at the beginning of Liber O; but then again, maybe there's no contradiction, and with time and experience he simply plumped for the objective side. It does seem to be heavily stressed in his later writing, and the balanced agnosticism of Liber O seems to be forgotten.
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@gurugeorge said
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@RifRaf said
"Are we that dense we need to nit-pick things like this?If you come across some other person (and this person is obviously not you)who is a Christian, they are their own person, not of you, detached from you, Objective. A 3 year old can recognize the difference."
Well there you go. According to AC, magical stuff is as objective as that. There's a funny quote, I think in Magick Without Tears, where he says:
I have seen people turn fish-belly pale in the face, and come near fainting outright, when it has dawned upon them suddenly that magick is a real thing!
Me, I'm not so sure (I'm more sure of the mystical side of things), but there's the canonical late AC for you.
There would seem to be a contradiction between that and the bit at the beginning of Liber O; but then again, maybe there's no contradiction, and with time and experience he simply plumped for the objective side. It does seem to be heavily stressed in his later writing, and the balanced agnosticism of Liber O seems to be forgotten."
Because somethign is 'real' doesnt mean its objective. A pain is subjective but its real. Its quite simple and Im amazed that you ahve such a hard time understanding the difference between subjective and objective.
IAO131
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Take Chris' reply:
Nothing is objective.
Is that an objective or subjective statement?
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@RifRaf said
" I still firmly believe that everything is subjective, although I have had various experiences to show otherwise. For one instance, I did an evocation of an Earth Kerubic from the Enochian tablets. I got my vision, the magick "worked", etc. Exactly 4 minutes (I know the exact time from my journal) after giving an Adoration, but not yet closing, my girlfriend comes running out of our room saying that she seen a "half-panda bear, half human creature" in her "mind" and then heard her name repeated over and over from a female voice. This is exactly how I seen the Kerubic (except half of his body was buried in sand in my vision), and heard it. So how is that explained subjectively? I some how influenced her mind to take in whatever it was that happened while I was performing my ritual?"
I would consider telepathy to be a more likely or “simpler” explanation than that your girlfriend perceived the same objective entity as you did.
I was going to mention “Occam’s Razor”, then I realised that William of Ockham, as a devout 14th century Christian, would probably have considered the objective Kerub to be a simpler explanation that that one human could see into another’s mind. That’s how objective explanations about subjectivity v objectivity are
You seem to me to be conflating two questions; (1) is the Kerub an objective entity separate from my mind? And (2) is its “half-panda, half-human” nature one of its objective attributes? Are you assuming a ‘yes’ to question 2 in order to cite that as evidence for a ‘yes’ to question 1? That seems to me to be getting things backwards.
A rainbow is a real entity (light is really being refracted through raindrops) but dependent on various people’s colour vision, it presents itself in different ways. “Two stripes, one yellow, one blue, both sickly” is as valid a description (by a person who would conventionally be called “partly colour-blind”) as is the conventional ROYGBIV. Objective existence and subjective perception are two different things.
(Or perhaps objective existence, the way the entity wants to present itself and the way it is perceived are three different things, but let's not get too complicated.)
An experience of mine has some loose parallels with your situation, except that the thing I saw was undeniably “objective”. It possibly carried a “force” beyond the normal, since the organisation involved in the event did have its esoteric aspects, which tended to filter into everything it did; but this was a piece of its exoteric ceremonial (a funeral).
I was present at the event; my then girlfriend was not, and knew nothing of the traditions of the body involved; but nonetheless she “saw” it in her mind, in what she called a “half-waking dream”.
Now I think you’d agree most of us have idealised visions of ceremonies that are meaningful to us; they take place in temples of the mind rather than shabby rooms with hangings obscuring the tasteless wallpaper; the officers glide about in smooth choreography, never stumble over their words and tweed trouser cuffs don’t show below the hems of their robes.
In this case, we had to modify one part of the ceremony because of a perceived fire risk; but what my girlfriend saw was the unmodified or idealised event. I therefore unhesitatingly labelled it “telepathy” rather than “clairvoyance”.
Why is telepathy not an acceptable explanation in your case?OP
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@Oliver P said
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I would consider telepathy to be a more likely or “simpler” explanation than that your girlfriend perceived the same objective entity as you did."In accordance with the known facts about the physical world, your explanation would require more assumptions. I.e. that telepathy is possible, the mental forms are objective, they can be transferred person to person, etc.
"I was going to mention “Occam’s Razor”, then I realised that William of Ockham, as a devout 14th century Christian, would probably have considered the objective Kerub to be a simpler explanation that that one human could see into another’s mind. That’s how objective explanations about subjectivity v objectivity are
"Using an ad hominem to refute occam's razor... never seen that one before.
IAO131
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Chris says nothing is objective, which is a subjective statement, so I am consistent. Not necessarily correct, but consistent.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Chris Hanlon said
"Chris says nothing is objective, which is a subjective statement, so I am consistent. Not necessarily correct, but consistent.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333"Reminds me of the old self-refutation: "All general statements are false."
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@gurugeorge said
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@RifRaf said
"Are we that dense we need to nit-pick things like this?If you come across some other person (and this person is obviously not you)who is a Christian, they are their own person, not of you, detached from you, Objective. A 3 year old can recognize the difference."
Well there you go. According to AC, magical stuff is as objective as that. There's a funny quote, I think in Magick Without Tears, where he says:
I have seen people turn fish-belly pale in the face, and come near fainting outright, when it has dawned upon them suddenly that magick is a real thing!
Me, I'm not so sure (I'm more sure of the mystical side of things), but there's the canonical late AC for you.
There would seem to be a contradiction between that and the bit at the beginning of Liber O; but then again, maybe there's no contradiction, and with time and experience he simply plumped for the objective side. It does seem to be heavily stressed in his later writing, and the balanced agnosticism of Liber O seems to be forgotten."
Because somethign is 'real' doesnt mean its objective. A pain is subjective but its real. Its quite simple and Im amazed that you ahve such a hard time understanding the difference between subjective and objective.
IAO131"
I'm not sure I agree with that hard and fast a distinction between "real" and "objective". The real part of pain is the objective part (C-fibre stimulation or whatever it is, plus the resultant brainstorm), the "ouchiness" of pain, the subjective aspect, isn't real, it only *seems *to be real (same as there *seems *to be a self).
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As with any Duality, there is a "Transcendental Reality" that is simultaneously "Both" and "Neither", that is 2=0 or classically, +1-1=0, or better still as i prefer, -X+X = 0
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Everything a man perceives is to a certain extent subjective, either as an individual or as a phenomenon within the confines of human experience; from a quantum perspective phenomenon requires an observer to exist within the confines of "Time-Space".
Your question therefore relates to the nature of "Time-Space" itself.
I maintain there is that which transcends "Time-Space".I hope I have clarified my position with this answer.
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@Scapegoa said
"Everything a man perceives is to a certain extent subjective, either as an individual or as a phenomenon within the confines of human experience; from a quantum perspective phenomenon requires an observer to exist within the confines of "Time-Space".
Your question therefore relates to the nature of "Time-Space" itself.
I maintain there is that which transcends "Time-Space".I hope I have clarified my position with this answer."
Quantum perspective requires an observer to determine the position or momentum of a particle; it exists before this observation (or more correctly, this measurement) but in, according t teh Copenhagen Interpretation, in a superposition state. It exists though before it is perceived. That doesnt mean tehre isnt ;that which transcends Time-Space"
IAO131
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IAO131
would you say that this indeterminate position or momentum exists within linear time, moving from past to future?
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@Scapegoa said
"IAO131
would you say that this indeterminate position or momentum exists within linear time, moving from past to future?"
93,
Most certainly.
Look at the two-slit experiment which confuses the layman endlessly. An alpha particle or photon or electron is shot from somewhere through the 'slits' and ends up being measured by photosensitive paper (or geiger counter etc.) This all occurs in normal time, i.e. it starts somewhere and ends somewhere. What it "is" in between there is a subject of intense debate and how it "ends up" as particle & wave is a subject of debate (Copenhagen Interpretation: wave function collapse)
IAO131
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"The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.
As Feynman concluded, each photon not only goes through both slits, but simultaneously takes every possible trajectory en route to the target, not just in theory, but in fact.
In order to see how this might possibly occur, experiments have focused on tracking the paths of individual photons. What happens in this case is that the measurement in some way disrupts the photons' trajectories (in accordance with the uncertainty principle), and somehow, the results of the experiment become what would be predicted by classical physics: two bright lines on the photographic plate, aligned with the slits in the barrier. Cease the attempt to measure, however, and the pattern will again become multiple lines in varying degrees of lightness and darkness. Each photon moves simultaneously in a superposition of possible trajectories, and, furthermore, measurement of the trajectory causes the superposition of states to collapse to a single position."
I am inclined to concur with Feynman's conclusion, which makes it impossible for me to confine particles to linear Time-Space.
True enough there is no consensus as to the exact nature of either "Time", "Light" nor "Mind"; but in the mind of many, including Einstein, there is a direct relationship between the two(or three). To my mind "Linear Time" is the creation of "Linear Mind", hence primarily subjective."The alternative physics is a physics of light. Light is composed of photons, which have no antiparticle. This means that there is no dualism in the world of light. The conventions of relativity say that time slows down as one approaches the speed of light, but if one tries to imagine the point of view of a thing made of light, one must realize that what is never mentioned is that if one moves at the speed of light there is no time whatsoever. There is an experience of time zero. So if one imagines for a moment oneself to be made of light, or in possession of a vehicle that can move at the speed of light, one can traverse from any point in the universe to any other with a subjective experience of time zero. This means that one crosses to Alpha Centauri in time zero, but the amount of time that has passed in the relativistic universe is four and a half years. But if one moves very great distances, if one crosses two hundred and fifty thousand light-years to Andromeda, one would still have a subjective experience of time zero." Terence Mckenna. New maps of hyperspace.
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@Scapegoa said
""The principle of superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.
As Feynman concluded, each photon not only goes through both slits, but simultaneously takes every possible trajectory en route to the target, not just in theory, but in fact."
This Feynman's specific interpretation of quantum mechanical events, traditionally called "path integral formulation."
"In order to see how this might possibly occur, experiments have focused on tracking the paths of individual photons. What happens in this case is that the measurement in some way disrupts the photons' trajectories (in accordance with the uncertainty principle), and somehow, the results of the experiment become what would be predicted by classical physics: two bright lines on the photographic plate, aligned with the slits in the barrier. Cease the attempt to measure, however, and the pattern will again become multiple lines in varying degrees of lightness and darkness."
They are measured but that at the same point - if we measure which slit the photon is coming through it will appear as a particle formation. If we do not do this and let them hit a photosensitive sheet, it will make an interference pattern which is indicative of waves.
"Each photon moves simultaneously in a superposition of possible trajectories, and, furthermore, measurement of the trajectory causes the superposition of states to collapse to a single position.""
That is a traditional interpretation, yes.
"I am inclined to concur with Feynman's conclusion, which makes it impossible for me to confine particles to linear Time-Space.
True enough there is no consensus as to the exact nature of either "Time", "Light" nor "Mind"; but in the mind of many, including Einstein, there is a direct relationship between the two(or three). To my mind "Linear Time" is the creation of "Linear Mind", hence primarily subjective."Our perception of time is most certainly a product of our nervous systems (and therefore our Linear Mind), but it is kind of absurd if you think about it. If time is an illusion, what about the formation of stars and planets and evolutionary history? All those occur in a sequential order.
""The alternative physics is a physics of light. Light is composed of photons, which have no antiparticle. This means that there is no dualism in the world of light."
"The short answer to "are there anti-photons" is "yes", but the disappointment here is that anti-photons and photons are the same particles. Some particles are their own antiparticles, notably the force carriers like photons, the Z boson, and gluons, which mediate the electromagnetic force, the weak nuclear force, and the strong force, respectively."
Terence McKenna was not a physicist.
"The conventions of relativity say that time slows down as one approaches the speed of light, but if one tries to imagine the point of view of a thing made of light, one must realize that what is never mentioned is that if one moves at the speed of light there is no time whatsoever."
Actually Einstein realized that if you ride on a beam of light and see a beam of light it would be traveling at the sped of light, not equal to oneself. Confusing, I know.
"There is an experience of time zero. So if one imagines for a moment oneself to be made of light, or in possession of a vehicle that can move at the speed of light, one can traverse from any point in the universe to any other with a subjective experience of time zero. This means that one crosses to Alpha Centauri in time zero, but the amount of time that has passed in the relativistic universe is four and a half years."
This seems like a total confusion. Light travels at a certain speed and distances are measured in this (i.e. light-speed). "The relativistic universe" is the one we live in and are aware of, not a 'time zero' one. Light is not infinitely fast.
"But if one moves very great distances, if one crosses two hundred and fifty thousand light-years to Andromeda, one would still have a subjective experience of time zero." Terence Mckenna. New maps of hyperspace."
That is debatable. People in a fast-moving space shuttle will have their clocks move 'slower' than people in a non-moving station but will the people's subjective perceptions of time be equally skewed? This is not answered by physics.
IAO131
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I must say this is getting interesting;
We are yet to have a "Unified Field Theory", or conversely "Theory of Everything" within the paradigm of modern physics and necessarily so; "Physics" is merely a language, based on a "history"of precedent, and limited by it's medium of propagation, hence a Linear time-line unto itself, and as such inherently incapable in and of itself at expressing transcendental truth; rationalization itself takes place within "Time", while "Gnosis" is instantaneous; "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise" CCXX II:32
Telepathy would approach gnosis in terms of being virtually instantaneous, in the absence thereof however, being limited to this mediocre English alphabet, one is forced to manipulate the written word to serve one's ends as best one can.As in the case of Terence Mckenna, though not a physicist, he experimented with "Mind Altering Drugs" loosely according to the tradition of the Shamans, and henceforth tried to articulate his direct experiences and intuitions generated thereby, in a language that may be called alternative physics, or pseudo -physics if you will. His emphasis therefore not being on technical correctness, but more on the underlying fundamental idea. IMHO he was exceptionally articulate.
To my mind "Light" is the "Essence of Consciousness" as perceived in Time-Space(a picture is worth a thousand words), the language of the Stars! Or otherwise "Pure Information", and information is all that exists. "Time" is therefore in one aspect, the drama of the "Linear-Mind" being unable to absorb infinite information instantaneously.
Let us return to the principle of superposition; the Linear-Mind being unable to apprehend all possible states simultaneously, apprehends each state individually and/or consecutively, it is the interface between "Attention to Specifics(Linear-Mind)" and "Infinite Possibilities"(Nuit if you will) that produces the finite. From this it follows that there may be infinite parallel universes superimposed at the same location, and breaking through into one of these alternate universes may be one way to describe some of the phenomena or noumena attributed to magick, mysticism and/ or shamanism. Furthermore, IMO there is that which transcends all, or Time -Zero if you like, of which we partake on some sub/super-conscious level.
I would agree with Mckenna that to move or vibrate at the speed of light is probably to transcend Time as we know it! I believe perception would be in a different paradigm.
As far as evolution is concerned that is just one possible way of perceiving things, which is rational to the linear-mind. The concept of "Time travel" is central to this debate. -
"but will the people's subjective perceptions of time be equally skewed? This is not answered by physics. "
Subjective perceptions can't be answered by anything, right?
Great comments,Aum.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
IMO yes the subjective time is definitely altered!
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We can only come to a consensus agreement as far as our minds can collectively fix on definitions, but this is really only important in a textual or literary context which certainly changes once you change languages.
Crowley sternly warned against considering the HGA as a figment of the mind or some anthropomorphic aspect of the "higher self". He certainly, at least toward the end of his life, made it very clear that he believed the HGA is an independent being in its own reality, as are planets, stars and other lofty orders of being.
The only real answers to your questions must be experiential and must be subjectively lived through to fully experience the soak-effect in a feedback returning reality. So you, like Parsifal, must ride around on your poor donkey overcoming the monsters of your own awareness in the very precarious environment you find yourself set in.
On the case of objective angels; We can see that the minds ability to create neuro-toxin is very real. We know that concentrating on negativity tends to create a negative effect in the organism by bathing the neurology in juices the brain secretes as a result of these thoughts - and vice versa. The great thing is, that we can control, to varying degrees, the creation and manipulation of neurological states, which certainly have a very real corresponding effects in the neurology and organism (brain, body, breath, etc).
Weather you personally believe something is real or not, much like in medieval "Glamour" you can think yourself into physiological changes by the power of mind alone. In this way, the auto-hypnosis of invoking an Angel (or demon) can have very measurable results in objective reality which can be verified by other people. This does not prove the existence of exterior orders of Being, perhaps not, but it does prove that the objective existence of these beings is secondary to our "divine" power to cause changes at the organic level using these forms as channels or fulcrums to achieve measurable changes. In that case, the fantasy, subjective Angel is perhaps just as helpful as the objective. In the end, if it creates positive organic changes, it hardly even matters as the method overcomes the message.
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Tell me if I understand this correctly:
The OP is asking for an opinion. But the expectation is that the opinion must be yes, no or neither, otherwise it's not acceptable.
We are talking about Magick here and it is in fact a "deep" subject. So that's very similar to trying to force a multidimensional experience into a linear answer.
Is my interpretation (hence my opinion of the question) correct?
**Edit: According to 777's definition of a Magus who has solved opposites etc. (wherein the answer of "Both" is also acceptable) this appraoch would be defeating in that it rules out any answer from that level of consciousness. May as well say "Here's the question, Magus' need not apply." It's like denying one-self the ability to listen to a right brain (or beyond) opinion.