Question on Liber L
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"Back to liber OZ, what grants man these rights? His physical power, his mental prowess, and the very fact that he is wiling to KILL anyone who stands in his way."
Not clear on this.
How are they rights? Because people do them? We have gangs of young men and women who do just what you said, but they can only function in a society that respects that.
The most powerful of the people in our world do not appear to have:
1. Physical power (unless you hire mercenaries)
2. Mental Prowess (unless you hire brains)
3. ..and who do you know that is willing to kill anyone who stands in his way? Powerful men and women may be willing to kill, but it seems to me the wisest people tend to chose a more expedient method. Even gangsters negotiate. It is more efficient.
If this formula works for you, so be it. But to assert it is the only way the world works is not true. The Buddha and the Christ are powerful, right? Their effect is lasting, so far. But conquerors come and go.
www.timelineindex.com/content/select/844/1023,844
What does all this have to do with True Will? You have defined True Will as someone who is Conan the Barbarian?
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
Seems like part of this discussion hinges on how one can approach Liber Oz, and maybe Thelema all together.
I tend to look at it in 2 basic ways:
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From the perspective of an individual, there seems to be a certain amount of the Crowned and Conquering Child Persona being thrown around - what baby wants, baby gets, etc. (of course until we have these rights a certain amount of "Conquering" might be in order to gain these Rights of Man).
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From the perspective of a society, there seems to be a certain amount of understanding that we are all individuals with our own needs and desires and "Wills", and that we can live together in a kind of peace if we respect each others "rights"... (I imagine this is akin to Crowley's view that as stars on their proper course we can all tred our path's without busting into any other stars, interacting, sure, but not destroying).
Ultimately I try to understand the document as an individual that would like to function in a functioning society.
My 2 cents.
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we don't have to shape ourselves to fit into society. society is the Resulting vector of every individual doing what it Wills.
Not still doing what you Will does not mean doing just anything at all. It mean first of all, if You WILL to do a thing, you must take actions to do it, rather than puss out or rationalize an excuse to not do it.
Second it means than once you are set upon your WILL you must remain focused and not let your self be distracted by side issues than do not contribute to your WILL. Sure if it facilitates your WIll murder rape and pillage, but as Crowley said if you Will is to get down a cliff, the simplest means is to jump, but this method destroys the Will in the process of fulfilling it.
Even a negotiation is a fierce battle of WILLs, think not that when I say we are to fight with sword I mean only those swords forged of steel. In many cases say two men reach a bridge and both want to cross, generally one or the other shall be in less of a hurry, or one will realize that his greater purpose is not achieved by a petty bridge battle. So a compromise in made. But to go out of ones way to accommodate the enemy, (everyone else) is treason to your own WILL. Just because everyone else is the enemy of your WILL does not mean you can't respect them as warriors of Thelema, nor that it does not benefit your own WILL to form truces and alliances. When it is to the benefit of you WILL, to put the Will of others above you own, or even equal to your own is to fall into the vice of kings, and weaken yourself, thus becoming a candidate to be trampled upon.
When the great empires, Babylon and Rome, toyed with such sweetnesses, they became more liberal and compassionate, that is when the empire fell, So too is that happening in the United states, and all around the western world, it is only China the very opposite of liberal politics, that is doing strong today.
To see a very good explanation of this tendency read Atlas shrugged by Ayn Rand.
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93 I always have to be the hippie on this forum.. or maybe it's just the female perspective that's lacking... Some of you guys seem to think being victorious in a cock fight means you've accomplished your Will. I think your Will successfully navigated would have been to avoid any such conflict because LOVE is the law!
DavidH:
"This is a case of another star, not acting according to their true will, leaves orbit to collide with you. You can stop them without any negative karma. If you murder someone with no reason then it is you who are out of orbit and not doing your true will."
So what if that star having gone off course is, by chance, not on a direct path that will collide with yours however is careening towards a heavily populated region of stars whom you know to be a vital part of the universe? Do you intervene? I believe sometimes we find ourselves in a certain place/time where we realize our Will might mean for us to sacrifice our life as an act of Love under Will. For to knowingly allow a crime against the sanctity of sovereigns is to be just as guilty as he who would commit such violation. Why? Because it all comes down to intention! If you kill another to save yourself because you love yourself above all others you are NOT doing your Will because you were not living by the Law bringing you to this junction. You can't go on a self serving rampage and assume anyone with the audacity to humble you is alienating your rights.
Froclown:
"We may presume that it is Horus, or wore correctly Ra-Hoor-Kuit, who in defined an "the strength and vigor of your arms" That is to say Each man has every right to do what he WILL if he has the strength, power, and wisdom to do it and get away with it. "
You have a long way to go, dear Froclown, I'm sorry to say. Nothing more is expected of you though but for you to listen to your conscience while you're going.. I think Bob Marley said it best with "you can't run away from yourself". Just the fact that you said "to do it and get away with it" means you know "it" was WRONG. That is not power, that is self defeat! You know you have to sow all that you may reap. Strength is tendered by mercy, wisdom by understanding. All power is given when Will surrenders to Love and one accepts responsibility for all his actions AND experiences (however they appear be it friend or foe) as a particular dealing of God with his soul...
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their is no right or wrong, you have to get away with it, if it pisses other people off.
and as for love, It is love to engage in battle. The fight unites two opposite Will, as in one arena.
As brothers fight ye.
The whole point of thelema is one not give concession of ones own Will to others, and others feelings are not taken into account at all. Save in matters of self preservation.
Politically correct is not Thelemically correct
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@Asraiya said
"93 I always have to be the hippie on this forum.. or maybe it's just the female perspective that's lacking... Some of you guys seem to think being victorious in a cock fight means you've accomplished your Will. I think your Will successfully navigated would have been to avoid any such conflict because LOVE is the law!"
Its a sad thing that women cant take pride in being victorious in a cock fight
Love is the law but... "This is to be taken as meaning that while Will is the Law, the nature of that Will is Love. But this Love is as it were a by-product of that Will; it does not contradict or supersede that Will; and if apparent contradiction should arise in any crisis, it is the Will that will guide us aright. **Lo, while in The Book of the Law is much of Love, there is no word of Sentimentality. Hate itself is almost like Love! ``As brothers fight ye!'' All the manly races of the world understand this. The Love of Liber Legis is always bold, virile, even orgiastic. There is delicacy, but it is the delicacy of strength. ** Mighty and terrible and glorious as it is, however, it is but the pennon upon the sacred lance of Will, the damascened inscription upon the swords of the Knight-monks of Thelema."
"So what if that star having gone off course is, by chance, not on a direct path that will collide with yours however is careening towards a heavily populated region of stars whom you know to be a vital part of the universe? Do you intervene?"
Thats too abstract to tell. The thing really is: if its your Will, you do it, if not, you dont.
"I believe sometimes we find ourselves in a certain place/time where we realize our Will might mean for us to sacrifice our life as an act of Love under Will. For to knowingly allow a crime against the sanctity of sovereigns is to be just as guilty as he who would commit such violation. Why? Because it all comes down to intention! If you kill another to save yourself because you love yourself above all others you are NOT doing your Will because you were not living by the Law bringing you to this junction."
Huh? Saving yourself doesnt necessarily mean you love yourself above others. In fact, its hard to love others if you dont save yourself first to be able to give out that 'Love'.
"You can't go on a self serving rampage and assume anyone with the audacity to humble you is alienating your rights. "
You sure can but that doesnt mean its a practical approach to conflict...
"You have a long way to go, dear Froclown, I'm sorry to say. "
Im sorry to say that you sound utterly condescending and I find that disgusting. You think you can tell anotehr they have a long way to go because they dont agree with your 'hippie' interpretation of things?
"Nothing more is expected of you though but for you to listen to your conscience while you're going.. I think Bob Marley said it best with "you can't run away from yourself". Just the fact that you said "to do it and get away with it" means you know "it" was WRONG. "
Suppose a person thinks that a law is stupid and disagrees with it. They break that law and 'get away with it' but dont think that action is wrong, just that they will incur penalties if the 'authorities' catch them for doing this. This is a clear example showing that your conclusion is 'WRONG.'
"That is not power, that is self defeat! You know you have to sow all that you may reap. Strength is tendered by mercy, wisdom by understanding."
And mercy is tendered by strength, etc.
"All power is given when Will surrenders to Love and one accepts responsibility for all his actions AND experiences (however they appear be it friend or foe) as a particular dealing of God with his soul..."
That doesnt necessarily exclude fighting, conflict, war, and good ol competition my hippie friend.
IAO131
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93! I do apologize for being condescending and will readily admit to having a long way to go myself. We're all in this together whether we admit it or not. As for Froclown I'll confess my contempt stemmed a bit from disgust with his love for this Gor philosophy stuff that has men enslaving women in a some fictional utopia... It's discussed on a different thread so I was being rather passive aggressive but you didn't have to hurt my feelings by insulting my ability to cock fight
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They are still taking volunteers for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. You should sign up. It would be a good place to test your will, if you know it so well. After all, ACTION not WORDS. Keep us posted on any conversions to Thelema you are able to accumulate. Last I checked, torture is still on the table.
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@Aum418 said
"Its a sad thing that women cant take pride in being victorious in a cock fight
"excuse me? please do not generalize. any woman can win your cock fight.
remember, all the power is given to the scarlet woman. power belongs to the severity (feminine) pillar
@Aum418 said
"Im sorry to say that you sound utterly condescending and I find that disgusting. You think you can tell anotehr they have a long way to go because they dont agree with your 'hippie' interpretation of things?"
excuse me again but you have been dismissive and condescending to froclown and you are being rude to asraiya. take that into account.
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@Sphynx said
"You have quoted Liber OZ.
Liber OZ is a piece of paper.
It is also some man's idea of how things should be (and then he wrote it down on OZ paper).
So what?"93...
So what? Well, since we are having a discussion about Thelema, I am using thelemic documents. If we were talking about PCs, I'd pull out documents on Windows, or what have you. If you want to talk Thelema, we have to use common language and common references (the thelemic writings).
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"As for Froclown I'll confess my contempt stemmed a bit from disgust with his love for this Gor philosophy stuff that has men enslaving women in a some fictional utopia..."
True, true, true. In Gor men enslave women, and women are thrilled to be enslaved. Works out really well for the men, since the women are like adoring dogs that love their master, no matter what.
The problem is when women are independent cats and don't obey. Like with cats, there's frustration when you can't control them.
I don't see why everyone is pointing a finger at people being condescending. If you disagree, you condescend. I am condescending in the way I view the world of Gor.
It's a nice fantasy. And if I were a guy or a trapped woman, I would love to be abused and dominated if it felt really good sexually or otherwise. The problem is, is that I can't see myself feeling good being abused, humiliated, dominated etc.
I'd want respect and want to be valued.
Hard to value a person who is a love slave as a fellow star. Hard to see her as someone who is equal to you. If you are both stars I guess you'd have to see her as a star of less magnitude. Yes, I am being sarcastic.
OK, Froward. Live the life you lead in the manner you would like. Good luck finding a Gor world, and women who are like Gor females. Actually, animals in heat are like that. Hormones take over, can't exercise choice.
Problem is, is that women like that, aren't the ones men want. They want a confident hottie with the pick of all the other guys. A woman who could choose any guy, and chooses you above all.
As a woman, I would like to say, that knowing you are pretty girl gives you a lot of power. You know you are desired by kids of 11 to men of a much older age. It's kind of embarrassing, at the same time, dangerously thrilling.
I am way past being a girl, but I know lust (Key
is a powerful force.
Men subdue women because they fear the effect women have on men.
Men are enslaved by their lust and they blame women for it. Yet men delight also in the surrender to it.
Think I'll abandon this thread.
Seems the chakra that we are talking about is the one that mixes sex and power together. Can't have one without the other, and it is the spiritual force that makes the world go round.
93
and in L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
why must everyone focus on the slave aspect of Gor?
My interest is focused more on the caste system and the specialization of social tasks, rather than labor task. The difference being that with labor you have a job and then you have your life proper, even if a greater portion of time is spend working the so called free time is still the life proper. Where as in a feudal or caste system such as on Gor their is no division in your life between labor tasks and social identity, ones whole being is wrapped up in ones caste. Thus ones caste is one whole life, it is ones whole WILL, and as each is focused on his or her caste, so too is each cast as a whole focused on the homestone. Thus the pursuit of ones awn WILL to excel in ones Caste, is also worknig towards the common good of the city as a whole.
As for the sexism inherent in GOR, there is an example of how Thelema can improve Gor, "let woman me girt with a sword". Their is no inherent reason why strong women should not keep men as slaves, and indeed this is not unheard of in the books of Gor. Also their are women who hold the caste stations of men rather than as Free women, it could be her father had no living sons and she must pass on the family honor and caste to her sons, for example. Further I only stated that the thelemic adaption of Gor use slavery as a means to train adepts for the ordeal of the abyss, as their is a similarity between totally surrendering oneself to a master, and pouring ones life blood out into the cup of Babalon. Their is no reason that men should not the submissive in this case, Crowley submitted to Leah's sadism to eat her shit, and he submitted to be Sodomized by Neuburg, to name but to examples of his use of masochism and/or submission to prepare for the ordeal.
This willed submission is not the same as humbling oneself or attempting to duck out of ones WILL, by appeal to ethical codes, obligations, or duties to others. The difference is between a soldier who WILLs to obey his superior officer's orders vs a soldier who is a afraid to fight and makes excused to justify his cowardice and desertion. (Oh this is an immoral war, it is wrong to kill, I have no right to kill, they have a right not to be killed, all such clap trap, the yapping of the dogs that fill the Pit called because, if you listen to that noise you will never act, you will just justify fear, which is not only a cause of failure, fear is failure itself)
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As far as being condescending, is condescension off limits? I should think not, if it is your WILL then do it, the only reason for passing a law against condescending speech is that you think my feelings or some ones feelings need protected, I am insulted more by belief that I need protected and I need others to pull their punches, that I am by the punches themselves. Any time you restrict yourself or put a restriction in general to protect others, you are declaring that you believe some one is less than worthy or able to handle, the full brunt force of others, no holds barred. That is insulting to others. It is also protecting the weak, whom nature would have destroyed. Why should you want to help preserve the Weak whom the We are asked to stomp down and tread upon, to strike low and hard and to hell with them. Where then does the liberal-hippie morals that protect the weak and stem from a resentment of Power. It must come from then from a feeling that ones self is powerless and enslaved, and thus an empathy with the weak, the low, the base, the slave, and a resentment that orders on hatred for the noble master, the Power virtue, and the warrior caste. All of which is exactly what Thelema opposes.
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Hi Froclown,
Can't seem to let go. You prod me on. Ox goad?
I agree that people use the concept of ethics to postpone action. (For qabalists only: Hmmm. Lamed is ox goad, is karma, is action.) And it is ridiculous avoid a decision by throwing up a concept like "Thou shalt not kill is one of the 10 commandments," when the real issue is you don't want to kill anything or are too scared to, or think you will get punished for it.
So, let's look at caste and designed function for certain people. You know, like in India -http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/spring98/india.htm.
What's wrong with this picture?
I still don't get it, Froward. How does this have to do with knowing your own True Will? Why are you defining Thelema to us? Isn't this your own view of Thelema? One part of it?
The caste system sounds as if there is no will, just biological imperatives. You know, you're a cow. You eat plants. You're a predator; you eat other living things, not plants. Can a cow choose to chase down a rabbit and gobble it down? Can an eagle decide to eat sunflower seeds?
“She rides astride the Beast; in her left hand she holds the reins, representing the passion which unites them. In her right she holds aloft the cup, the Holy Grail aflame with love and death. In this cup are mingled the elements of the sacrament of the Aeon” (Book of Thoth). In a more general sense, Babalon represents the liberated woman and the full expression of the sexual impulse. "
Does this sound like somebody from Gor?
I've read these books. I don't think so.
I understand the knowing oneself and one's purpose, and delighting in it, being content in it. Nice situation if you achieve it, or are born into it, like in Gor. But that's not HOW IT IS. How it is, is we all go stumbling blindly, doing the best we can and get hints to guide us up and down our path, shedding all the non-authentic parts of ourselves, until we are truly ourselves.
It's not that easy, Froclown. It's hard work, and damned uncomfortable at times.
Maybe now, I can abandon this thread.
Love and L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Froclown said
"As far as being condescending, is condescension off limits? I should think not, if it is your WILL then do it, the only reason for passing a law against condescending speech is that you think my feelings or some ones feelings need protected, I am insulted more by belief that I need protected and I need others to pull their punches, that I am by the punches themselves."
lol, you have a point but fyi i was not defending you. i was pointing out to aum418 that he's doing the same thing he's disgusted of.
@Froclown said
"Any time you restrict yourself or put a restriction in general to protect others, you are declaring that you believe some one is less than worthy or able to handle, the full brunt force of others, no holds barred. That is insulting to others. "
yes, i agree! - thelema 101
in any case, this thread has gone a little awry... or so it seems. -
93,
You've got an interesting vision, Froclown, but it seems to me your overlooking a glaring contradiction; you're arguing for a caste-based society of warriors.
Why is there so much emphasis on violence and conquest in this utopian society of yours? No caste-based society that I am aware of is made up of only a warrior caste. Is there, then, no legal system? No venue for the resolving of disputes besides brute violence?
It seems to me that in practice, such a system would result in something like what we see in Zimbabwe - rule of the strong rather than the qualified.
Sounds lovely. Cholera, anyone?
Love=Law
- C
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Chris, I think you put the finger on exactly why a caste system would be beneficial. It is hard to discern a proper niche in which to exercise ones WILL, because their is no attempt whatsoever to discern in general what classes of WILL expression are common and create social roles that approximate these classes of WILL. Nor is their a panel of experts that analyze the character of each individual to aid them in the discipline and self-awareness necessary to discern where one fits in that system of orbits.
While it is true that each star has its own unique orbit, just as each electron has its own unique orbital shell around the atom, it is also the case than their are different type of orbits, which each electron due to its unique energy and momentum will be able to fill.
An S orbital (caste) is a simple surface of a sphere, where as a P orbital in like a dumb bell shape. Thus a caste system is preparing possible orbital shells, such that those with a Will to fill them will have some where to express that WILL. I see no harm in that, and much good. Better than our system that has no scientific means to plan society in harmony with the individuals that occur their. We have lots of pegs with no holes and holes with no pegs.
