External entities or subconcious mind?
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
@Froclown said
"Which is why I propose the system where natural genius is cultivated and an aristocratic class of genius is separated from the common stock, and a culture of cultivated knowledge and wisdom created which works on higher goals and values than the common worker, the slaves than serve."
Interesting... because that's pretty much why I endorse a system where the natural genius potentially present in each person is cultivated and unlocked so that more and more of society, over the generation, becomes an inclusive (rather than exclusive) artistocracy, and those who were slaves may fulfill the promise of truly serving.
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
the point in not to be exclusive, anyone who proves themselves can enter the higher class. But to prove oneself means to undergo certain training. Not everyone who walks into a temple has what it takes to be a zen master, a larger number may achieve enlightenment, and an even larger number may feel a sense of awe of peace while visiting, and the largest number being crude and uncultivated sorts ie red neck bumpkins, will just say What god damed bull shit, I got yer buddha right here, while spiting a plug a tobacco in the coi pond and grab his crotch, then make a rude comment to the monk about his bald head, and leave to "Go get fucked up and find some pussy".
I simply do not thing that the refined and disciplined individuals should have to live constantly out and fight their way within the society of rude, drunken, loudmouthed, hillbillies. I mean how can you even have the peace to perform Resh when its time, if these judgemental fulls are going to see you doin some "devil worship shit" and come over and at best yell annoying insults at you, at worse beat your face in, possibly with a bat or chains, if not level a shot gut your way.
I would think that, a closed off abby in which to practice Thelema, without constant harassment would be a benefit. The abbey acting as a whole then could use its resources to do charitable deed, make itself known, get positive public relations, and in this way make slow progress of enlightening those who are capable of it.
Like Alex in a clock work orange, (the real last chapter) once being a crude jerk becomes unpopular, those who persist will be left without friends and will be forced to change their ways.
Even Jesus who went about helping the poor and the common people, traveled with a his self selected band of elites, only venturing out to spread his message, and returning to his roving monastery of 13.
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
I did, because, Jesus is colloquially known as some one who got off his high horse in heaven and intermixed with the common man. Even those who do not buy his divine birth, can't deny than he could have lived better, if he stayed home and ran his fathers business, instead of walking the earth penniless and starving, to intermix with lepers, gentiles, tax collectors, whores and the likes.
But despite his dedication to helping the poor and wretched, he did not become one of them, and he hand selected a group of peers with whom to travel, socialize and to teach his secret wisdom which the vulgar masses were not able to grasp,
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
Are we both talking about imaginary make believe Jesus? Cause I am. Do you know another kind?
Although I guess the question is... does it matter?
Which brings me around to the thread. How does one determine the difference? What scientific method would one go through to make a proof one way or the other?
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
well, for one thing, it is claimed that spirits can influence objective events, they can bring you objects, give you super-human power, tell you the location of secret treasures, and inflict death or disease on the target of your choice, etc.
Now if we take these claims literal, and if the spirits really are objective entities they should be able to do these things as claimed, Then merely set up a test to see if this can be done. Ask the spirit to give your target small pox and see if he so much as develops the small pox sores. Have the spirit draw you a map to Solomon's mines, and when the pen magically floats through the air, on camera, we have confirmation. Or if the spirit tells you to draw the map, follow it and see if you find anything of geological or archaeological significance at the location that indicates a mine was ever there.
Now, if we assume the spirits are REAL but not tangible and can't actually effect reality (nor have and true knowledge like about secret treasures) then we shall have to examine the brain directly while the evocation is being done, MRI, PET scans, EEGs, and even radioactive chemical tracers to locate which specific neurons are triggered, blood work done before and after the ritual, and many other techniques used in cognitive science and neuro-biology to observe how the brain functions and reacts to situations.
Though, if you demand the spirits exist anyway, who can convince you otherwise, you refuse to listen to reason. You employ the God is in the gaps, fallacy. Let's say you believe the rain is caused by the great river God Ungabagunga, you pray for rain and pray for less rain when their is enough. So I explain to you how the water cycle works, the water evaporates and clouds form then colld and rain falls, You then say, yes but Ungabagunga makes the water evaporate and the cloud to form. So then I explain diligently and detailed the nature of matter and solid-liquid-gas phases and about atoms and molecules, boyles law, vapor pressure, and covalent bonds, etc. Then you say all this I believe fully, but still Ungabagunga makes the bonds stick and makes the vapor pressure ect. So I explain further about atoms and electron and sub-quantum particles, etc. Then you say, yes fine very well, I don't know where or how undabagunga makes in rain, but there is still something missing, some gap in the understanding of the water cycle and ungabaguga works his magic their. The fact than I can't understand it only makes it that much more sublime and awe inspiring, In fact your science has only enhanced the greatness of our River God, that he could work in such a detailed and complex system and remain undetected, he is so awesome beyond measure.
No I can not stop you from holding faith that something is true with no evidence to support it. The best I can do for you rm that case is "speculate on the likely outcome of a fool"(1)
- From "The Soldier and the Hunchback".
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
Honestly I dont think that the beings magicians contact can be neatly fit into a box. When you work magick synchronicities seem to happen which is how I most commonly experience it. So for those results to take place there has to be some sort of interface between the magician and the universe that is activated through ritual. Dreams are subjective, but dreams have influenced soo many inventions and ideas that have helped shape the way we live...so even thought the dream is subjective it has objective results in the end.
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
Synchronicity is of course the seeing events in the world, but at the same time it is applying special attention to those events and relating them to each other, such than one selectively remembers hits and forgets misses. Thus synchronicity is in fact an feed-back between the events in the world and the events in the mind. Thus the actual experience is a combination of internal and external factors, as is all perception, however there is more of a dynamic back and forth in the case of synchonicity.
The spirits are sort of like synchronicity there is a feed back between the nervous system and the smoke or glare in the mirror, or pendulum or whatever you use. In the feedback process aspects of the unconscious mind come to surface, and are expressed via the spirit. The spirit is visible to the conscious awareness via the medium used, thus it creates a means by which the unconscious mind can express itself to the conscious mind, which have no direct internal link to one another.
The synchronicity then is the after effect of that communication where the unconscious mind has informed the conscious mind to pay extra attention to certain things than it normally over looks, as a sort of clue that reminds one of the unconscious drive.
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
I tend to agree with you froclown to an extent....however I dont think that the unconcious mind is something that resides solely in the brain in the first place. My experience with synchronicities has definitly not been that I just pay more attention to certain things, a number of times people have been drawn to me that become my friends that later help me with the things that I had done rituals for in the first place.
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
I have enjoyed this discusion greatly. I think a good explaination would be to categorize synchronicities as a tangled hierachy. I believe looking at pure cause and effect present a duality which is not inherently present in the situation. Do the synchronicities happen because of the magick, or did the magick happen because of the synchronicities...OR are they both intrinsically linked and to seperate would only serve to dilute the true beauty which is the experience of both.
As for the is it within or is it without debate, I would have to say that like Schroedinger's cat it lies in a state trancendent of both until you make the decision to view it as an event happening outside of you or inside of you. Let me explain this more because I know I am using this example kind of loosely for the situation and do not want to have a discussion on how I have misused it. Perhaps I have, but here. Every event you have experienced in this life that feels "outside" of yourself is going on outside of yourself and inside of yourself. Your nervous system is sending information to your brain which is being decoded and pushed into consciousness through the view of your own paradigm. So as you see while a wave may be crashing into your body "outside" you, all the perceptions of the wave are "inside" of you, yet both are intrinsically linked. To seperate is to fracture.
Also I think it was this post that talked about hallucinogens, possibly not but I feel like this is some cool knowledge. Our brains get millions of bits of information constantly, yet our consciousness can only handle 200 bits of information at a time. Owing to this fact, we connect the data we receive to concepts and schemas in our mind. Because of this, the vast majority of the sensory information we receive we don't truly perceive. I mean that if you have seen your computer monitor 10,000 times, the 10,001 you don't see it, you see the idea you have of it based on how your mind connects it to the concept you have of it. Now here comes the fun part. When you take LSD, and I'm going to go out on a very thick limb and say this is true of most hallucinogens, the part of your brain that connects your perceptions to your schemas doesn't really. What happens, is that you TRULY see. That is what gives everything it's novelty when on LSD, because to your mind you are experiencing everything for the first time and not continually relating it to your ideas of what your are experiencing.
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I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
@Blythe A. Blanche said
"
One last thing, I've been reading several essays on psychoactive chemicals being used to awaken spiritual sections of the mind. It's well-known that genious is heriditarily tied in with insanity. (Einstein's son was a paranoid schizophrenic.) Could it be that hallucinogens truly do open dormant parts of the brain, while even the slightest "mess up" often leads to insanity?
"
Psychedelics are some of the most powerful evolutionary tools we have at our disposal, and as such are the most dangerous. While it is true that they tend to enhance one's creative/mental ability, and open the spiritual centers of the brain, they also release latent inhibitions. For example: an intelligent, fit, and "intellectually healthy" college student ingests a threshold dose of LSD for the first time. He spends the next twelve hours wandering naked through the forest, muttering gibberish about little green men. This sort of thing is rare, of course, but the point is this: there is no telling what the consequences may be. My advice for the curious (as you seem to be), is to first discover whether such things are in conformity with your Will. If, after deep reflection, you decide it is your Will to take the plunge, then start small and work your way up. Also, seeing as there are so many adulturated look-alikes being sold as LSD, little better than toilet paper soaked in speed, I'd stick to the organics, like mushrooms and peyote.
Personally, after years of experimentation, I've found that the best trips in life are free.
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
@Blythe A. Blanche said
"I'm curious to the know everyone's opinion regarding the objetive reality or subjective illusions of gods, spirits, etc."
In An Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magick featured at the beginning of 666's publication of the Goetia he says:
"An Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magick*":2qvzs91b]The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human brain. Their seals therefore represent[...]methods of stimulating or regulating those particular spots (through the eye). The names of God are vibrations calculated to establish:
(a) General control of the brain. (Establishment of functions relative to the subtle world.)
(b) Control over the brain in detail. (Rank or type of the Spirit.)
(c) Control of one special portion. (Name of the Spirit.)"...and on a similar note:
"The Magical Record of the Beast*":2qvzs91b]Attainment 'is' Insanity. The whole point is to make it perfect in balance. (10:00pm 26 Dec. 1919)"
729
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
I believe in a spirit world that is both within and beyond my own self. I base this on the hermetic principle the microcosm and the macrocosm, often phrased "As above, so below". Basically I interpret it as meaning the external "objective" universe or reality is mirrored within ourselves as the microcosm, and that the two are fundamentally linked yet each having power in of itself. Many of the world's greatest occultists believed that the human mind was a mirror of the greater universe that is formed by our perception and will. So in a nutshell I believe spirits are both external forces and internal aspects of the self, 2 sides of the same coin.
This is mostly based on theory rather than personal experience, as I have had little direct experience with spirits, and what little I did have didn't really answer the external/internal question. However I have known trustworthy people, including my younger sister who is a very normal girl who doesn't practice any kind of ritual magick, have very vivid spiritual experiences that even resulted in physical scars being manifested on her back. I have a very hard time believing this was just part of her psyche.
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
@Infernal Seraph said
"However I have known trustworthy people, including my younger sister who is a very normal girl who doesn't practice any kind of ritual magick, have very vivid spiritual experiences that even resulted in physical scars being manifested on her back. I have a very hard time believing this was just part of her psyche."
Interesting. Does she happen to live in a repressive or otherwize unhealthy atmosphere?
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
@JPF said
"
@Infernal Seraph said
"However I have known trustworthy people, including my younger sister who is a very normal girl who doesn't practice any kind of ritual magick, have very vivid spiritual experiences that even resulted in physical scars being manifested on her back. I have a very hard time believing this was just part of her psyche."Interesting. Does she happen to live in a repressive or otherwize unhealthy atmosphere?"
Not at all. We both grew up in the same average conservative Christian (but not fundamentalist) family. She's always been a normal teenage girl in a normal life
I think I should elaborate on exactly what happened:
Back in spring 2007 (when I was still a Christian but gradually leaning more towards the occult) one of our teenage friends at our church died in a car wreck. Both me and my sister were hit pretty hard by it since it was so sudden and he was a really nice kid. Anyways my sister, who I think was 15 at the time, was going to a week long Christian retreat for teens called CIY in the Summer. I usually went every year too, but opted out this time. I told my parents it was because I wanted to focus on my part-time job, but in reality it was because of my waning faith in Evangelical Christianity.
Anyway my sister said that 2 weeks before she went to CIY, she had a dream where our friend who died appeared to her in the form of an angel, and told here that God would reveal himself to her soon. When she went to CIY, one night she woke up in her dorm room. She said that a black substance was forming on the walls and there was a very "evil" presence. She ran out of the room screaming for help but no one could figure out what was bothering her. I can't remember all the details, but among other things, she said she looked out the window and saw a huge grim reaper like being wearing a black robe and had gray flesh and black inhuman eyes. Somewhere along the line it calmed down and she went back to sleep. She woke up again, only this time to a horrible demonic face on the wall that she thought was Satan. By this time the other people from church realized what was happening and starting laying hands on her and praying. While they were praying my sister felt something inhuman touch her shoulder. When they were done everyone could see physical claw cuts on her shoulder. She was pretty traumatized for the next week, and said she could see spirits and such. However she eventually moved on and returned to normal life.
A few months later I "converted" to Wicca and when I told my parents I thought they would be understanding, but they were very upset and thought I was being deceived by Satan. My parents and I were very close and it was one of the most emotionally devastating moments of my life. However what I found strange was that my little sister was the most understanding of my choice. Even stranger, she then told me that when she saw "Satan", it seemed that even in the horror she could see the light of God emanating from him.
Some might find it strange that I would believe such a story and then turn to Satanism. I can't fully explain it myself, but I've had this irresistable drive to attempt to commune with the infernal powers. They are the very forces of destruction and chaos in the universe, yet beneath their outward horrors I feel there is some deep illumination that can transform the soul into something more.
I've had as couple of my own experiences, while not nearly as dramatic or interesting, I can't really explain. I'll have to get to them later though, as it's late and I've done enough typing.
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
Anyone who has ever seen Scooby-Doo can attest that seemingly supernatural events ALWAYS have a natural and reasonable explanation and almost always has to do with some form of trickery and deceit an one party's side and a strong desire to believe + a refusal to question on the gullible parties side.
Also we find this theme in the Wizard of OZ / ZARDOZ (con artists use giant heads to scare primitive people), Star trek (the Gods turn out to be projections or aliens with powers) StarGate (again aliens pretend to be Gods) Doctor Who (Ghosts turn out to be aliens).
And many others.
Combined with the fact than science has always debunked mystical explanations, we must conclude than There is a rational and natural explanation for ALL phenomena, no matter how seemingly supernatural these phenomena appear to our limited and faulty senses, emotions, cognition, and brains than seek not truth but stories to reassure the emotional security.
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
Infernal Seraph, 93,
Interesting story.
American Christianity has long struck me as being a form of magical Gnosticism. (Harold Bloom wrote a book called *The American Religion *that explores this. He's one of the few people who 'gets' Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet).
Because of the intense emphasis American Christianity places on personal experience, and the fact that it both invokes a version of the HGA (the personal Lord and Savior) and evokes the Shadow side of the Self (Satan) so effectively, it is able to produce magical effects: healing, conversions, visions and so on.
My personal "Sub-theory of Life No. 5-B" (or thereabouts - I don't keep a notebook:-) is that deprogramming and repositioning ourselves from any spiritual experience, encounter or lifestyle is a key phase in developing mature understanding. It sometimes requires an atheistic or agnostic phase, to decrease the lingering psychological power of what has been experienced. Another way of doing this leads us to exploration of the dark side. That's our sense of selfhood trying to find a viewpoint from which to get a handle on it all; to identify with our own Hadit in the midst of the turmoil.
But I don't doubt that magical effects and symptoms occur among Christian believers, for the reasons stated. A friend of mine, who long ago deprogrammed himself from his own evangelical group, recalls being told to hang out among the new and younger converts, because the interesting stuff (meaning ' paranormal phenomena') happened through them.
93 93/93,
Edward
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
Alrah 93,
God bless the Vicars of the Anglican church - what would Britain have done for fun without them?
Deprogramming can sometimes be a job that takes years. Sure, you can nail the main issues quite rapidly, but really experiencing the places in ourselves that it all came from can be a major task. The difficult/interesting thing is that the bad things that happen also show us where to find the inner power and, through that, the inner wisdom.
Jerry Falwell used to say of people who spoke in tongues that they'd "eaten too much pizza the night before." I think he was onto something.
93 93/93,
Edward
-
I think it is presumptuous and careless to default to the belief that what appears as external to oneself actually is objective. I have had some experience with rituals and psycho-active drugs and both produce unusual states of mind, that are far too complex and really not possible to define unless you have had the experience. Part of this experience seems to be a massive widening of ones inner world or subjective awareness. One part of that widening is seems as if their is an over-lap between the inner and outer world. (5=6)
However again this is only subjective seeming, and we know from science that all "seemings" need to be tested. Now I may have taken a strange drug or had a psychotic episode where I am dead certain that I saw the lord God break forth out of the heavens in a fiery chariot, I may have felt the hot blast of air, I may be able to describe in perfect detail the time, place, location, the weather, the even the license plates on the cars, and may even describe the details of the chariot, the beasts that pulled it, etc. As clearly as if I had been describing a Stage coach driving lovers around the park. But, that does not prove that it was real, it only proves the how strong and detailed by perception was, no matter if it was real or delusion.
However, if the Chariot can be summoned again, with witnesses, or thermal scans to pick up the flames, or some evidence of scorch marks, that persist after the initial vision and can be verified by others. Then we can take this as evidence to the Objective reality of the event. As far as I have seen, little to no such evidence has been found other than some very small changes in ambient temperature and EMF back ground fields which accompany projections of apparitions in dark mirror, which I feel are better explained by metabolic changes in the bio-chemistry of the subject, who perhaps startled by the images, react with fear that restricts blood vessels and this reduces body heat emission.
Now various attempts to project the subjective into the objective involve the notion of planes, aethyrs, other world, dimensions, subtle energies, sepheroth, etc. These all assume than the stuff of the mind, spirits, gods, chariots of fire, etc do exist in reality but are made of a substance that is finer that physical matter and our bodies are too coarse a sifter the holes in our net are too wide to catch these finer grade substances. Or that they exist in some parallel universe or other dimensional type of heaven. Either way they these are unfalsifiable theories, founded on proclaimed axioms than these worlds are outside of the reach of science, reason and perception. (generally with the implied, my school and mine alone can teach you how to interact with these other worlds, it will only cost you a little for the first lesson.)
Those theories are non-falsifiable and thus useless from a scientific perspective. It the field of Cognitive science it has been shown than the parts of the brain that code the mental map for physical space, is also used when dealing with other types of logic. We think of dreams and thought as being in a 3D world much like the external 3D world. When we thing about math and logic problems we may create inner graphs that are spacial, and we may say that a dried stick from a hickory tree may exist in different semantic spaces. the idea of a the stick as a twig, is in a different space from its idea as a phallic rood, or an instrument of obedience used on a school child. Thus we can see that in our minds eye these other worlds heaven, hells etc are projections of the physical activity of the brain, creating the subjective projection of mental images and ideals into various consistent semantic spaces. But these spaces are actually the function of the brain, not actually real spaces.
However when we get to 5=6, we find a resolution, (sort of)
The awareness we have of being a body/mind which has a particular location in the physical world. Is actually a projected model created by the same spacial-reasoning centers in the brain, than project the semantic ideas of the subjective imagination. Thus the physical world (at least as it appears to our eye/mind) is just as suspect at being a metal projection into a semantic space, as the heavens and hells where spirits live. Times square may be no more "real" than Valhalla. Conversely Valhalla may be just as real as times square.
At this point your certainty on just where to draw the line "Truth vs Illusion" of "Subjective vs Objective" or "Self vs Other" should atleast begin to blur.
You can go with a duality where some things are in each category, You can return to science where all things are material, or you can go with idealism where all are ideal substance. Or you can become an adept and accept the confusion, and merge the two categories into one, in Tiphereth.
All True magick acts upon this new unified space than transcends the Subject-Object duality. It is in this space that you will encounter the spirits of the Goetia, but while in this space it is not correct to say these are True beings nor is it correct to say they are subjective illusions. They are not both nor neither, much as green is not blue or yellow, it is not blue and yellow, and green is not the lack of blue and yellow.
The spirits are green, and thus can't be classified into categories of blue and yellow at all. (you dig?)
Alrah, 93,
"Would the difficulty people have deprogramming be from learning it when they were knee high? Like other difficult psychological blocks?"
Certainly. If you grew up in a religion, then you were being jointly programmed in the family values and dynamics at the same time as you were absorbing whatever faith you were in. Maintaining a relationship with family when you've rejected the family's religion has been very difficult for many people. Some distancing is going to be necessary to allow for resolution, and that distancing might take years.
There's a thread on the BBC site right now about Orthodox Jews who leave Orthodoxy that covers some of this:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8435275.stmIt gets more complex when you join something as an adult or (dangerous, vulnerable time) as a near-adult. At some point, you may well find the New! Improved! Truths you've adopted don't deliver what you hoped, the God-inspired leader is a lecherous narcissist, and that you're in a headspace from which it's hard to move. The complexity here is that you joined the Order of the Hyperinflated Ego(TM) to gain the strength and insight to deprogram yourself from your upbringing, and now you have to absorb and analyze the OHE experience without any support structure, since you just burned the previous one. (Your family will just say they're glad you came back, and are unlikely to offer anything insightful).
So, really learning the lessons from that can be enormously valuable, but it can't be done in a brief while. Both the early programming and the later batch need to be deconstructed, while whatever values did seem virtuous in the OHE (or from before) need to be teased out and considered, not dissolved.
That's not easy to find. A friend of mine who shared my own interest in Scientology went onto an ex-members' site, and asked, "Okay, but surely there was something in Scientology that was of value? What was it that kept you there for X number of years?" Nobody, he told me, gave him a positive answer. The people were stuck in the grief and anger stages of it all, and couldn't reflect back on the communication skills they'd developed, or gaining the ability not to react to other people's rage, rudeness and so on. There wasn't anything they'd found, and certainly nothing they'd created, to offer that.
Yes, going back right to origins and an early childhood or pre-verbal memory if you can identify one might be very helpful, since it establishes a point outside the whole set of structures that you're trying to resolve. Anyone who persists in this endeavor, though, should be able to develop a mature, aware and balanced spirituality eventually.
93 93/93,
Edward