"dweller on the threshold"
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Robert, 93,
I feel some reluctance to say a lot here. The processes we're talking about are wide-ranging, and will vary from aspirant to aspirant. We're talking about a crucial step in individuation, not a basic elemental sephirothic experience. Just as nobody wants to define the HGA, because it would set up false expectations as well as being essentially impossible, something similar applies with the approach to Tiphereth.
"I mean, does the Dweller only attack during that last mad dash at the very end of the course when one is almost done with the path of Samekh, or is it awake and active as soon as one sets his/her first foot on the path... "
I can only refer to my own process, done at the Golden Dawn level - that is, as a TOT member. Over time I became aware of a constellation of oppositional forces, which in my case tended to manifest itself in external life-problems that mirrored my inner state, though it took me time to see this clearly. At no point did I explicitly find myself facing anything like a dark, brooding figure out of the Lovecraftian tradition. The experience changed focus as I worked through various stages.
"...does it activate whenever one is doing anything designed to bring one closer to realizing ones angel no matter where one is on the Tree, or does it have some way of making everything a person does that is associated with performing the Great Work more difficult?"
The experience will be uniquely individual. It is about preparing the psyche for a shift, and that preparation is going to be relevant to the psyche in question.
"And I have to disagree on the notion of the shadow as being related to the Dweller if only because the term was coined by a tradition which was fairly precise in what it was describing, even if we are not. If you are thinking that 'shadow' is an apt descriptor for the Dweller I agree with you, there is something shadowy about it. But "according to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else." The two entities are enough different that any overlap can be summarily dismissed as insignificant, imo."
I disagree with your final comment here. How it works at the A.A. level, I'm not qualified to say, but on the GD level, the idea that anybody is dealing with a discrete entity without the accretion of various complexes and other Shadow contents, is wrong. I personally found a fair bit of projection occurring, hence the external life-problems I mentioned above. The whole nature of the Dweller, and our encounters with it, is that it activates the denizens of the inner zoo.
93 93/93,
Edward -
@Edward Mason said
"I disagree with your final comment here. How it works at the A.A. level, I'm not qualified to say, but on the GD level, the idea that anybody is dealing with a discrete entity without the accretion of various complexes and other Shadow contents, is wrong. I personally found a fair bit of projection occurring, hence the external life-problems I mentioned above. The whole nature of the Dweller, and our encounters with it, is that it activates the denizens of the inner zoo."
Well Edward, this feels like a cul de sac. I cannot argue against your experience because mine is limited to my own efforts and the life experiences of the people about me that I can readily observe, not part of an initiatory system. I guess I can only say, okay, on this point you may be right, but I don't really know because I don't know.
Most of my other comments in my last post were not so dissimilar from what you wrote in your post before mine. I just spun the logic differently to suggest a connection between various phenomenon, whereas your logic seemed to suggest their might not be a connection. Maybe I will be in a position to assert my point of view with more authority some day, and maybe not.
Love and Will
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@Escarabaj said
"Hi All,
I've noticed reference to the "dweller on the threshold" in a couple books on Astral projection / OBE.
This is meant to be some sort of being which you must confront, which represents the sum total of fears, anxieties, etc. I assume this is, from an initiatory point of view, early on in one's path.
I am curious where this concept originated from, what precisely it might be, and whether Crowley references this concept by another name. (I don't recall mention of it in Thelemic lit.)"
I first ran across the concept in Steiner's Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, but he called it the Guardian of the Threshold:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_of_the_Threshold
I don't think this concept, at least as Steiner defined it, has anything to do with the Jungian Shadow. Rather, if physical death is no longer the limit point for dictating morality, every magickal act is seen to work toward generating a current of destiny and karma. That's what I think the Guardian or Dweller is about - a warning.
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"I don't think this concept, at least as Steiner defined it, has anything to do with the Jungian Shadow. Rather, if physical death is no longer the limit point for dictating morality, every magical act is seen to work toward generating a current of destiny and karma. That's what I think the Guardian or Dweller is about - a warning."
There is alot being said here even if u dont think it is relevant to the discussion;)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Is this thread necromancy? I dunno. Sorry if it is.
Is there a specific place this Dweller becomes apparent? I know I've seen the term until recently, but I thought it was a reference to something like the Watcher Without. Is it something that would happen during a self-discovery period, despite not having done anything ritual-like for three months? I don't think I need to not share it, but I'll try to not share too much.
I ask, because.. Hrm... 11 days ago [I think. does it matter? If so, I can go get my book] I had some kind of religious experience. The main thing I feel like typing [Though, I did record it all] is because the Crowley stuff above makes it sound the same.
"Per contra the Evil Genius is vague, unreal and inactive. His characteristics are horror and emptiness. His eyes are ghastly, which I take in its strict sense as connected with geist. And this epithet is peculiarly abhorrent since the sense of sight is attributed to Fire, and should be clear-cut and luminous. Such activities as he commands are slow, cozy and vermicular. They resemble wells of poisoned water, i.e. they lurk and receive as little light as possible, whereas the ideal eye should dart forth flame. "
I don't want to share too much, because what was said is a bit too personal for interweb usage, but the..... "Commands," were not very active, in fact they were the opposite [If I say it was dainty would that make sense?]. The most important thing for this though were the eyes. They were so black and shiny [And big about as big as my eye sockets], but nothing reflected from them. I couldn't see the environment from the eyes, nor myself EVEN when I was looking right in them. I had a friend sketch the face [Well, she knew I wanted a picture of a geisha] that I re-did to have the features I saw, and the image still unsettles me.
"Anatomically he resembles a fish, a cold-blooded inhabitant of the passive element."
This is why I'm confused [In addition to all the talking about about Adepts. This tells me that I may be looking in another wrong place] because it looked nothing like a fish. It looked like a woman. A flawless, make-up'd almost porcelain Japanese woman. With bad eyes. I really can't share enough about how much those eyes bother me.
The only other piece of interest about the thing was in the center of her forehead some thing that looked like a ruby cut into a kite shape, and very red lips [Though, I assume that was a make-up thing], but it wasn't scary like the eyes.
Does the environment around the event matter? It wasn't dark or scary, but it was bright and green [With cherry blossoms]
Sorry if this is weird, but this sounded too much like what I just read, so I needed to ask. The biggest reason I don't think it was just a silly hallucination is because it- 1. Felt off. Just before it happened, it was like something "Clicked." I was feeling emotional, but it just "Clicked," I felt light, and things got weird. 2. After the event, I wasn't feeling emotional, I felt energized and tired; and most importantly I've noticed several changes in attitude towards doing new things. 3. I am used to dream-like hallucinations [As in, sometimes when I'm laying in the dark I can dream without sleeping. Or something. I dunno. It's more fun than useful] , and this didn't have my normal marks [Er, that is, there was NOTHING I could latch onto except.. Well, I don't know what it was, it was hard to tell even where I was once a certain point started, but I think it may have been a sense of "Wrongness."] that I use to tell if what is happening is a dream or drug-fueled freak out.
Thanks for any advice. I may have another question, too, but I want to see where this goes.
Love is the Law, Love under Will.
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@malnarcissis said
"Sorry if this is weird, but this sounded too much like what I just read, so I needed to ask. The biggest reason I don't think it was just a silly hallucination is because it- 1. Felt off. Just before it happened, it was like something "Clicked." I was feeling emotional, but it just "Clicked," I felt light, and things got weird. 2. After the event, I wasn't feeling emotional, I felt energized and tired; and most importantly I've noticed several changes in attitude towards doing new things. 3. I am used to dream-like hallucinations [As in, sometimes when I'm laying in the dark I can dream without sleeping. Or something. I dunno. It's more fun than useful] , and this didn't have my normal marks [Er, that is, there was NOTHING I could latch onto except.. Well, I don't know what it was, it was hard to tell even where I was once a certain point started, but I think it may have been a sense of "Wrongness."] that I use to tell if what is happening is a dream or drug-fueled freak out."
I'm don't think your experience fits into the whole conceit about the dweller. For one thing, it doesn't sound as if you are on the verge of some major mystical attainment. My argument is that you don't need to be, but others think it is important. Rather, it sounds to me like an unguarded, and uncontrolled astral experience. Astral experiences can be very intense and some distinguish themselves as something more than what one is used to—exceptional even.
I say this because I have had a similar experience, as far as I understand your account. It happened when I was just wandering a lot. Since that time I always work in a prepared space, always have a specific place I wish to go, and always go armed—prepared with appropriate divine names, invoking and banishing pentagrams, and so on depending on where I am exploring.
Love and Will
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93,
Love is the law, love under will.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"For one thing, it doesn't sound as if you are on the verge of some major mystical attainment."
That's part of the reason I am asking. What counts as "Major," or "Mystical?" I don't really know, XD. I'd say something big happened, as several tings have changed for the better. I don't know, after I got up it was a lot harder to do a lot of things I've done [Small list: I can't argue. It's too hard, I don't seem to dislike children, and as far as I can tell am not afraid of porcelain dolls anymore. At least I've seen them and haven't started hyper ventilating].
"Rather, it sounds to me like an unguarded, and uncontrolled astral experience."
That's one of my basic guesses, which is why I've been trying to figure out what was what, especially in regard to the figure. I found a description from a theosophical-thing, and it sounded slightly familiar that mentioned this. Searched here, found this thread, which described the eyes.
Also, does it count if it becomes controlled?
I mean, there was a chain of events; the middle as the only time I spent enveloped at all. Of course, this just gives me an inkling to start another thread asking for what any of the symbols even meant. I mean, just before I had lamented how laziness was going to get me killed; so I find it amusing Geisha apparently means "Entertainer." [All I knew about geishas until 10 days ago was that the more high end ones wouldn't touch your penis. But that wasn't involved, really.]"I say this because I have had a similar experience, as far as I understand your account. "
Aw, man. Then could I ask your help privately? I wrote down what happened, because I was afraid that after a few weeks I would try to chalk it up to "Imagination," and I wanted to make sure it was internally consistent after it all.
"Since that time I always work in a prepared space"
I wasn't working. That's what has me the most confused. Where I live Winter has been horribly long. That day was the first day it was just warm enough to walk, so it was a lot like a lot of pent up energy got to get let out. Though, after the experience, I've been working much more than ever. Heck, the stuff I've done before just feels different; though, that could be because of a perception change [Which is what I really care about. It's like after this event, all of the things I had realized {Er, if I say I like psychonauting would that make sense? I don't really know how to say "A lot of ideas have been stripped away in a process, and this felt like some kind of synthesizing of those elements," in a way that isn't vague and silly.}]
"always have a specific place I wish to go"
Oh, I had that. XD. Sleep. It set me back another two hours
After it all, I was tired and energetic- I scribbled down what happened, and drew a bad version of the face, so I could describe to a friend what face I needed drawn [Because I don't draw very well. It's terrible, lol.]"and always go armed"
How do I do that? XD. Sorry if this is basic, but I have always avoided astral looking stuff, because it's.... Well, frankly it looks a bit kooky to me at times. If this is that, though, then I guess I don't really have a choice if I'll be getting pulled into dreamscapes whenever I feel "Raw," emotion.
"prepared with appropriate divine names"
Erm... I don't think I'll comment here. I don't know what the word even is.
"invoking and banishing pentagrams"
During the event I managed to make one pentagram. I guess part of the reason I've been doing the LBRP again is because it perturbed me that the star was brown fire, not blue.
Thanks for the answer, man. If I seem attached to a view, just tell me; I have zero experience with this other than "Don't take it too seriously," which I am trying to do, except for it seems to be at least contributing to the concept of "Words and Motions."
Any one else think it is an astral vision? If so, what can be done to not see that thing again? I would be happy to never see it again.
"Frater 639's post."
Did I say something wrong? I am sorry.
Love is the Law, Love under Will.
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93,
@malnarcissis said
"Did I say something wrong? I am sorry. "
My comment wasn't directed to anything said. It was actually directed to my own experience regarding what could be described as the "dweller on the threshold". If I can offer one suggestion, try not to get too involved with the objective description of these "ideas".
Q. Am I wrong? Am I doing it right?
A. This must be the answer! This is it!PARADIGM.
Belief is a tool, tools are to be used by the practitioner.
Truth is relative.
Some are Artists with a saw, some with words.
Magick is Art.All these are "answers". Each create a belief and a subsequent paradigm.
In other words, nothing is wrong.
And, then again, nothing is right.
We only have points and the perspectives related to those points.
The Book of the Law is brilliant in regard to this "point".
And never apologize for seeking.
*46. Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?
- Where I am these are not. *
-- Liber AL Chap II
In regard to your questions, a helpful thing to ask in all astral work:
How helpful is it?*The true, the final test, of the Truth of one's visions is their Value. The most glorious experience on the Astral plane, let it dazzle and thrill as it may, is not necessarily in accordance with the True Will of the seer; if not, though it be never so true objectively, it is not true for him, because not useful for him. (Said we not a while ago that Truth was no more than the Most Convenient Manner of Statement?)
It may intoxicate and exalt the Seer, it may inspire and fortify him in every way, it may throw light upon most holy mysteries, yet withal be no more than an interpretation of the individual to himself, the formula not of Abraham but of Onan.
These plastic "Portraits of the Artist as a Young Man" are well enough for those who have heard "Know Thyself". They are necessary, even, to assist that analysis of one's nature which the Probationer of A.'. A.'. is sworn to accomplish. But "Love is the law, love under will." And Our Lady Nuit is "... divided for love's sake, for the chance of union." These mirror-mirages are therefore not Works of Magick, according to the Law of Thelema: the true Magick of Horus requires the passionate union of opposites.*
-- MTP, Appendix III - Notes for an Astral Atlas
I hope this is helpful. Good luck on your Path.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@malnarcissis said
""I say this because I have had a similar experience, as far as I understand your account. "
Aw, man. Then could I ask your help privately? I wrote down what happened, because I was afraid that after a few weeks I would try to chalk it up to "Imagination," and I wanted to make sure it was internally consistent after it all."
Erm, no, I will not help you other than providing some general advice. I'm not rejecting you, just being honest with myself—I am not a teacher of magick—I am pretty much in the same boat you are in. But you can easily find and use the same source materials I make use of:
@Frater 639 said
"
-- MTP, Appendix III - Notes for an Astral Atlas
"This Appendix from Magick in Theory and Practice, the whole thing, is highly recommended. Also, see the other chapters and footnotes in this same text about the nature of astral visions, and the technique of exploring and gaining control of it, specifically chapter 18, 'Of Clairvoyance and the Body of Light. Also Liber 'O' for basic technique, which should also be in the Appendices. This last document is where you will find your weapons.
Also, The basic instructions from Israel Regardie's The Golden Dawn is also very helpful.
@malnarcissis said
"That's one of my basic guesses, which is why I've been trying to figure out what was what, especially in regard to the figure. I found a description from a theosophical-thing, and it sounded slightly familiar that mentioned this. Searched here, found this thread, which described the eyes."
The dweller, as far as I understand it, and I am no expert on this, has to do with failure. Imagine that you have taken an oath to achieve spiritual realization—call it the Knowledge and Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel. Things are going swimmingly and it looks like you are about to really get somewhere when out of shadows steps a very bad man. He sticks his foot out as you run, and instead of passing the pylons, oh so close, you fall on your face. It's just my opinion that your experience doesn't sound like that, though you are free to disagree with me.
What you described is something that proceeded from an open ended fantasy(?), a type of conscious dreaming. In my book this is accessing the astral, whether you call it that or not.
Prepared space:
If you do the LBRP on a daily basis I would imagine the room in which you do this ritual will be prepared enough, at least for the time being. If I were you, when you start your astral work, I would incorporate the imagery from the ritual. In other words, see the ring of fire studded with the four stars about you. I also tend to add a simple circle on the ground.Go someplace specific: The Golden Dawn material uses the tattwas (traditional symbols from India and the Yogic tradition for the five elements) as example doorways, but any symbol will do. A project of exploring all five elements and all the sub-elements is not a bad place to start, imho. I like doorways, they can be opened, and more importantly, they can be closed when you are done with the experiment!
Weapons:
In this regard, Liber 'O' and the Golden material will provide specific practices. Being familiar with the greater Ritual of the Pentagram will supply most of what you will need in terms of divine names, and invoking and banishing pentagrams.One last thing. Crowley goes a long way to describe the effects of bad astral technique: inability to concentrate, and a weakening of the will and character of the magician. I have decided this is more than simply an effect, it can also be a tool. If you develop a disciplined approach to magick, and life in general, this will translate into a species of protection and authority on the astral plane.
Good luck.
Love and Will
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"My comment wasn't directed to anything said. It was actually directed to my own experience regarding what could be described as the "dweller on the threshold"."
Ah. Okay. XD. Sorry, but I wasn't sure if I sounded too silly. I am really not used to doing this.
"try not to get too involved with the objective description of these "ideas".
"Er, Okay. Now, I don't think I really understand what that means, but I think I'm trying to do it. It was weird, and I do not understand why it happened. All I was doing was going to sleep. I was not expecting what I got.
"
Belief is a tool, tools are to be used by the practitioner."I know. The issue is belief has never been important to me, so I don't really know how to identify with it in this sense. How can I beleive in anything when I don't even have a vantage point to see things from? XD
"All these are "answers". Each create a belief and a subsequent paradigm."
I don't mean to sound mean, but this looks like the standard issue rigamarole.
"And never apologize for seeking."
I don't apologize. I disarm
Joking. Maybe."How helpful is it?"
That's a thing that I'm not getting into here for a reason. I don't know. It seem to be helping, but I don't know if I should only include part of the event to say that- was it the figure, what she tried to do to me, or what I did when I realized what was happening. It was strange, because the click-thing happened just before this. Also, is it normal to be this scared of a face? That's a part I really don't get; it's just a face.
Beyond that, since I'm thinking that this astral-thingy is the baseline reason, what should be done with words? If I saw words that I don't know, what should be done with them? I've tried finding out if it was just a word I've seen before; but I haven't. I haven't even found it in the standard plethora of Thelema-related languages. Should I disregard this, as my first instinct when I got up was that I had heard the word and it was not important.
I think this all sounds paranoid.
Thanks, man.
Love is the Law, Love under Will.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"Erm, no, I will not help you other than providing some general advice."
Yeah, I worded that wrong. lol. I understand, though. That's why I waited this long to try, because I was beginning to run out of ideas.
"I'm not rejecting you"
But, but, but...
Nah, even if you were, I'd understand."Liber 'O' for basic technique"
I've always avoided the later parts of Liber O, because I've never felt ready. I can't even hold a triangle in my "Mind's Eye." Though, in the last six months I have gotten better without trying, from what I can tell.
"The dweller, as far as I understand it, and I am no expert on this, has to do with failure. Imagine that you have taken an oath to achieve spiritual realization—call it the Knowledge and Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel. Things are going swimmingly and it looks like you are about to really get somewhere when out of shadows steps a very bad man. He sticks his foot out as you run, and instead of passing the pylons, oh so close, you fall on your face.It's just my opinion that your experience doesn't sound like that"
Well, if that's the description, I do not think it was that. I don't think I'll explain what happened, simply because it's embarassing,and I don't think anyone who isn't me would draw any inherent meaning from it. That being said it followed a progression of questioning, an enveloping [Would it make sense if I said it was very hard to tell the difference between it and myself?], followed by a shock, and then me getting angry. Does that progression sound useful?
"What you described is something that proceeded from an open ended fantasy(?)"
Possibly. That was my thought when it started, and I haven't ruled it out. Problem is, is that I'm used to those. I'm not saying that one couldn't go unrecognized, but it didn't have the general feel. Of course, all I know is that it didn't feel like other things that have resulted in visuals and audio I have done.
"In my book this is accessing the astral, whether you call it that or not."
I'd need more experience with astral to know
"inability to concentrate, and a weakening of the will and character of the magician. "
While I was there, the only stuff I did was ask a name as soon as I saw the person, and I knew how to make a pentagram. That being said nothing BAD has happened, in fact the opposite.
Thanks again, man.
Love is the Law, Love under Will.
Edit: lol. After reading my posts, I find it hilarious how bad this makes me look to myself. No wonder I've always been critical of people who do similar things, it's just hard to actually word things for others in ways that are linear, without giving too much away.
Also, if this gets any more posters, I'll start a new thread as to not clutter this one, I think.
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93,
@malnarcissis said
"-- Belief is a tool, tools are to be used by the practitioner.
I know. The issue is belief has never been important to me, so I don't really know how to identify with it in this sense. How can I beleive in anything when I don't even have a vantage point to see things from? XD
-- All these are "answers". Each create a belief and a subsequent paradigm.
I don't mean to sound mean, but this looks like the standard issue rigamarole."
^^^^^^ And that sounds like you might want me to add more detail.
You believing that your "astral experience" has some importance has affected your reality. The issue of belief is "related" to perspective. This "causes" the sky to be blue, the existence of demons, etc.
'How can I believe in anything when I don't even have a vantage point to see things from?'
^^^^^^ That is a belief. You've set up a reason of why you cannot see/believe things.
*28. Now a curse upon Because and his kin!
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May Because be accursed for ever!
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If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.
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If Power asks why, then is Power weakness. *
-- Liber Al Chap II
The magician learns (hopefully) to control their belief(s) and perspective(s) to the best of their ability. This is not rigamarole. This is what the basic training of the mind/will is for. From the looks of it, it seems that you may want to get a firm grip of what is "inside your circle" and what is "outside". These are relations. Truth is relative. Asana Proper will help you with this. I highly recommend Eight Lectures on Yoga by Crowley.
Understand that experience in these realms are cumulative. Initiation into aspects of your Path come with time, it matters not how much you try to force them:
*Thou wast long seeking Me; thou didst run forward so fast that I was unable to come up with thee.
O thou darling fool! what bitterness thou didst crown thy days withal. *Liber LXV Chap I v. 25
However, stick to the Work! Your passion, if sincere, will carry you through. The Joy is in the Going.
On that note, I sincerely wish you the best.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"You believing that your "astral experience" has some importance has affected your reality."
Well, in a sense. What is really affecting me is my lack of understanding [If it was just a vivid hallucination, it still affected me, that's all I really know]. This was very different from my normal states, and seems to have spurred me to do things I've never done just 'cause.
"This "causes" the sky to be blue"
Erm. blue is a word used to describe the visible light given off, not a belief. Did I read that wrong? I don't know. It's in quotes, so I'm sure I am missing something. I assume you mean the specific ways anyone views the phenomena we call blue?
"That is a belief. You've set up a reason of why you cannot see/believe things."
I'd call it Ignorance in this case. That's been the theme of educating myself lately [As in, I've largely just been unaware of a lot of things, despite always being told I'm overly aware]. I don't really understand why things are said or for what reasons.
"This is not rigamarole."
I may disagree [I was referring to the sentence I quoted] in the sense of I'm trying to learn, not find a definitive answer. The nature has me curious, as does the possibility that I need to do things to prevent it from getting like that. XD. I hope I didn't sound like I was asking for a meaning of what was said- I have a very good idea. I'm just confused as to why it was just a sudden prompt. lol. The only thing remotely mystical I've done is a constant thought, but with no real actions. Part of me thinks it may have happened simply to avert the problem I may have been rushing towards. But again, I am not aware of the mechanics of "Astral Vision," beyond the "How-to's," I can pick up any where.
XD. In a way it makes me very glad it wasn't this [DotT], because I was quite worried I'd have to see it again. lol.
"it seems that you may want to get a firm grip of what is "inside your circle" and what is "outside"."
Story of the year.
"Asana Proper will help you with this"
Strangely, since this, Asana has been doubled up on, in the sense that I now understand where my difficulties have come from [Though, not related. Simply mechanical experience]
XD. In a sense, after this event ritual became a lot less important, but started getting done without the usual grumbles that I get from the start.
Edit: Actually, I think I see what's up. I'm so worried about the nature, I'm avoided the important question- when I wanted a name, I got one, "AMERLE." That's a new event for me. I'm starting a new thread, as now I'm waaay off topic. Sorry Robert Allen, I think you're typing.
Love is the Law, Love under Will.