LOVE under will????
-
One could see love and will, as force and containment. - expansion and contraction. The pillars of severity and mercy.
The love aspect - pure, expanding force - is restricted and focused by will aspect. Like a nozzle restricts the flow of water.
Seeing as the gematria for both is 93, I have a hard time with the evaluative concept of "will" as "superior" to "love". I personally believe them to be equals, in a descriptive relationship. They need each other. Love needs to be contained by will, and will needs a force to contain.
One of the nice things about thelema, of course, is that you're free to find your own truth. You need not agree with me or anyone else to attain.
-
93, Perhaps you confuse love and love? Perhaps it is not a ego-centric idea. If you are following your True Will, would not Love be therein? Are they not of the same flow?
-
From the online etymological dictionary:
substance
c.1300, "essential nature," from O.Fr. substance (12c.), from L. substantia "being, essence, material," from substans, prp. of substare "stand firm, be under or present," from sub "up to, under" + stare "to stand," from PIE base *sta- "to stand" (see stet). A loan-translation of Gk. hypostasis. Sense of "the matter of a study, discourse, etc." first recorded 1390. Meaning "any kind of corporeal matter" also is first attested 1390.
Perhaps love under will is referring to the fact that the "essential nature" of Will is Love and not that Love is somehow subordinate to Will?
-
Thank you all i have much to think about.
So if Love is the "essential nature" that supports Will
and If we assume Love and Will are Paradoxical
All Paradox's can be resolved and united
Then Love and Will are but polar extremes of the same substantial prima materia? or True Willin that sense i see how LOVE is under WILL
I'll keep meditating on the subject
-
"All love is expansion, all selfishness is contraction. Love is therefore the only law of life" - Swami Vivekananda
-
I asked my inner teacher, "How can I find my true will?"
He said, "The things that you love are expressions of your true will. What you love to do is a manifestation of it. Find what you love. You will find your will." -
@Aum418 said
""All love is expansion, all selfishness is contraction. Love is therefore the only law of life" - Swami Vivekananda"
Great quote IAO131.
Just remember, "love under will" (bhakti thought?) does not necessarily mean that love is inferior to will; not all the time. Sometimes they are equal, though, it is the True Will which holds "superiority." Think of the love of the northern and southern poles of a magnet; that attraction. That is Love. Experience. Will is to be seen as ultimately dominant (find the True Will!!!!!). Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
-
Law: (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority (2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules.
Crowley defines spiritual love as, "the uniting with one or another part of 'Nuit.'" Nuit is "Space -- that is, the total of possibilities of every kind ... Every event is a uniting of some one monad with one of the experiences possible to it."
We have here than Law is the whole body of customs (especially states rules) that are binding, ie that bind a community together. And Love is the natural state where the individual binds with others and with life in general. So Love is the actual law, but what is the specific rules and ordinances than enforce Love as the binding force of the law, rather than fear of authorities that use force, or others use of threats and violence. The actual ordinance itself is "Do what Thou Wilt"
-
"We have here than Law is the whole body of customs (especially states rules) that are binding, ie that bind a community together. And Love is the natural state where the individual binds with others and with life in general. So Love is the actual law, but what is the specific rules and ordinances than enforce Love as the binding force of the law, rather than fear of authorities that use force, or others use of threats and violence. The actual ordinance itself is "Do what Thou Wilt""
the whole thing "Do what Thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will"
love is the byproduct of your true will, it is the will manifesting itself in the physical, causing the brain to release chemicals through the body and our "sphere of sensation"
and ofcourse "do what thou wilt" is another way of saying follow your heart/true will whatever you feal the universe or whatever(something positive) is leading you to go(usually your higher self or soul, already made the decision for you, you just have to understand the why's and stuff)
-
Love is the 'principle', 'function', and 'form'?
Love 'chosen', 'caused', 'realized' by Will?Screw what thou guilt shall be the pole of the Ra?
Move is the Law, move under hill?
-
I'm always intrigued and etnertained, when this question comes up, how the conversation (in PC-like fashion) persists in saying that "under" doesn't mean "secondary to" etc. This persistence is sometimes direct, sometimes indirect.
But that's the simplest, most direct reading of the words, which might be rendered: Love subservient to Will. Most neutrally is could be understood as, "Love in alignment with Will," even though that's a more divergent paraphrase.
Goodness knows, not every passage in Liber L. is straightforward and uncomplicated in its syntax; but I think we need to initially approach each passage looking for the simplest meaning of the words.
Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, but who calls us Agapaists will likely cause folks to think we're Christians.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, but who calls us Agapaists will likely cause folks to think we're Christians.
"Frankly, I see no difference between Crowley’s concept of True Will, which is grounded in the Father Chokmah, and Biblical scriptures such as:
Matthew 6:9-10:
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.New Aeon, same law...
-
yes... thou child, thy reign is come thy will is done...
-
I've always taken "love under will" to mean that Love is an hypostasis of Will. So in a sense they are the same in that they are in hypostatic union, but they are not simply synonyms.
An analogy would be the relationship in much Christian theology between any one person of the Trinity and the Godhead. Christ (or the Father, or the Holy Spirit) is an hypostasis of the Godhead. In a sense they are identical, but they are clearly not synonyms, and the Godhead is also in a sense the higher principle. So we might say that Christ is "under" the Godhead.
We should not make the mistake of treating Love as the ultimate principal, for in doing that we would not know it's essential nature, but at the same time, we must remember that Love participates fully in Will, and is not inferior to it. If this sounds like a paradox, it is, in a sense, but that is the mystery (just as the nature of the Trinity is one of the great Christian mysteries).
That's how I think about it anyways...
-
93 all
Maybe I am misunderstanding the "under" part too, but the line speaks to me as if it was Direction on how to Love.
When you Love, Love under Will.
In other words let Will guide you. The most I hear average people say they love is possessions or music or movies or drugs. "...balanced by weak joys.."
How often does the term True Love appear anyway?93 93/93
-
For me, "Love is the law" refers to an absolute concept - that every manifestation follows the analogy of the love of Chockmah and Binah - connected on the Tree by Daleth, the Empress.
"Love under will" makes me think of Netzach and Geburah - Netzach properly coming after Geburah in the order of manifestation. "Love under will" is Netzach balanced by Geburah in Tiphareth.
-
What the heck, might as well toss my 2c in, FWIW
"Love is the law" = no matter what you do, you will love anyway.
So how do you choose whom or what to love?
On the most basic, sexual level, "love under will" is shorthand for: only have sex with people to whom you have a strong, *energetic *attraction, and with whom the attraction is mutual and passionate.
To highlight what's meant: you may be a heterosexual, but suddenly one day you have an intense attraction to a member of the same sex who is also attracted to you. You may normally go for fat, ugly, dirty girls, but suddenly one day the proximity of this thin, beautiful, clean girl who sidles up to you drives you wild.
The True Will may *sometimes *(not always, of course, but sometimes, and this sometimes-ness is what gives the game away) cross your normal aesthetic, sexual categories that you've built up in the course of your life.
The mark is urgency and passion, intensity, total physiological response - and that it's mutual.
The mutuality bit is exceedingly important, it's what means the situation is "under will" - sc. the will of the Universe, God's will, your True Will, however it might be put. It takes two to tango, and those two are one, God meeting God - that being the case, all such meetings should be at God's behest, not the behest of your tiny mind.
And of course on the more general levels, it means take the "next step" in experience. Whatever is logical (Logos), whatever draws you, fires you up, etc., etc., **and that also gets a response from the Universe (e.g. you may think you're a painter, but it turns out nobody likes your paintings - you might make a better contribution to the Universe by making pottery or selling insurance. OTOH, you might be ahead of your time and your true audience not yet formed. Unfortunately it isn't always easy to tell, but at least you must try.)
-
"And of course on the more general levels, it means take the "next step" in experience. Whatever is logical (Logos), whatever draws you, fires you up, etc., etc., ***and that also gets a response from the Universe ***"
Thank you for that. Gonna chew on that one for a bit...
-
I could also see it as this.
Will 93
Love 93Love under will.
The division of 93/93 results in 1.
So really none is inferior superior than the other?
a unity ?
-
@AquarianRenegade said
"
How can one define LOVE? "I think of it like this: love is raw force, raw energy, that isn't necessarily "nice", it's only "nice" when it's "under will" - i.e. channelled in service to the Divine in you (the point where you are in sync with the Universe to the extent that your every move is a move of the Universe). Otherwise, it's mere desire, with all its attendant troubles (such as the Buddha, but thousands of others too, have outlined).