Lunar rituals and "LIBER QOPH vel HECATE"
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I never said i didn't like lunar work. I do, I do it plenty. I think that one of the goals of Magick is to attempt to experience all aspects.
I just wonder if making a Resh-like ritual is really good lunar work. I guess my questions weren't clear in my last post:
Why do a Resh-like invocation for the moon?
Do you think the structure here would really help you understand/experience lunar energies?
Under what theory?
What i have qualms about is taking rituals which are formulated and structured for a specific purpose and changing them around to fit something you "like" or to make them more personally interesting without any reason why that would be appropriate.
Do lunar rituals all you like--but why base them on a solar ritual when that is not what they are? I think lunar work is different enough to iply an entirely different ritual style.
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A Shadow, 93,
"Do you think the structure here would really help you understand/experience lunar energies?
Under what theory?
What i have qualms about is taking rituals which are formulated and structured for a specific purpose and changing them around to fit something you "like" or to make them more personally interesting without any reason why that would be appropriate.
"How do you see the structure here having a negative effect? The aim is to provide a context for exploring what Lunar energies mean to a given individual. Using a devotional approach is a pretty standard way to do such exploration.
The magical principle strikes me as sound enough, even if each practitioner might want to tweak the wording. This approach wouldn't work for invoking Lunar energy a magician wanted to direct, but it would work for opening up the Lunar current for inspection.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Shunyata said
"in a Thelemic context I would not recommend a lunar adoration."
Crowley did.
"MWT*":om0lbojn]From time to time I have exhorted you with mine accustomed matchless eloquence never to neglect the prescribed Greetings: but I think it just as well to collect the various considerations connected with their use—and in "Greetings" I include "saying Will" before set meals, the four daily adorations of the Sun (Liber CC, vel Resh) and the salutation of Our Lady the Moon."
...the Gayatri is also discussed in the chapter on Pranayama in part I of Book IV.
729
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Puck, I did start some notes last weekend on the ritual form we discussed early in this thread. But I forgot to ask a couple of key questions:
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Were you looking for a solitary or group Moon ritual?
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Do you wish it keyed to any particular pantheon? (Classic Hebrew ceremonial hierarchy? something else?)
TIA.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Puck, I did start some notes last weekend on the ritual form we discussed early in this thread. But I forgot to ask a couple of key questions:
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Were you looking for a solitary or group Moon ritual?
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Do you wish it keyed to any particular pantheon? (Classic Hebrew ceremonial hierarchy? something else?)
TIA."
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Right now I am solitary, though I sometimes take part in stuff with my dad (Feri Trad) and the community surrounding the shop I and my friends founded in Santa Cruz, which is more general Pagan and Wicca, with Stregan influences. After a lifetime of being solitary and learning from books in my pursuit of the Great Work, however, I am trying to reach out and find groups, and I am planning on petitioning the A.'.A.'. soon.
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I have generally worked mostly within classical Hebrew/qabalistic structures. Most of my original learning was via Modern Magick by Kraig and lots and lots of Crowley, with some Regardie and Fortune thrown in. This means I am pretty flexible with deities, as many of the various practices included Egyptian, Greek, and Roman pantheons anyway, plus plenty of neoplatonic language. Generally I consider all possible gods within my purview. If I had to nail it down, I work best within classical Hebrew and Hermetic frames for ritual, and Thelemic, Greek, and Egyptian pantheons end up falling out of that.
Thanks again, Jim.
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Thanks. Have stuff to work on this afternoon and evening (don't fret if the forum is down for a short while, it's planned). But as I have the chance I'll try to write up the outline that was emerging last weekend - just for the fun of it and whatever interest it may have for you and others.
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@A Shadow said
"Back to the subject of the moon...
"i feel that the moon should be according just as much respect and can do just as much good or progress as the sun in personal work"
It strikes me as interesting that the first two words of this statement are "I feel" and not "I think" or "I believe".
The moon does have this watery nad potentially stagnating aspect which seems to be more associated with Witchcraft than High Magick. There is no reason to privilege the moon over the Sun. Or to even see it as equal. The sun is our lord the giver of light and life. The moon may be an aide to our limited understanding of such a concept. Liber Resh fortifies one with solar energy, enhancing and balancing, along with other solar work, so that one can use this (along with energies cultivated through yoga)--especially while attempting more Lunar, Infernal, or Saturnian Magick.
At best Lunar Magick can be an exploration of aspiration, an opening of the senses, the mind, a freeing of the spirit. At worst it is enervating, misleading, and unstable.
I do Solar rituals in preparation for lunar etc. "I feel" that if I started doing Resh-like rituals for the Moon, Saturn, Mars, Venus, it might be an interesting experiement--but what would the timing really be like? Would I do a "Saturnian Resh" every four months? Once a week? This concept seems somehow confused.
As a path through which to begin to explore various potentials, and through which to begin to see the possibilities of Magick I can very much endorse "lunar" rites. I don't necessarily see the point of doing a Lunar Ritual modeled after Liber Resh. I am not even theorietcially certain that this would help align one with Lunar energies (or I can at least think of more theoretically and well-tested ways of doing this).
I'm also a bit confused by the tendency to want to Wiccanize Thelema. As a Magician you are certainly capable of engaging in any type or tradition of Magcik you like--but this seems like a confusion of formulae to me. Maybe I'm confused or too rigid, but I'm not sure I get the point.
p.s.
call me a stick in the mud but Kenneth Grant makes me nauseous."
The sun is the indeed the source of light and life, but you can't eat it. It cannot sustain you. Without the Earth to harness that energy and to protect you (ozone), you would shrivel up and die. Also, without the moon, you would not have life as you now know it, nor light in the darkness. It's easy to forget that until you are in the woods without a flashlight and you literally can't see your hand in front of your face.
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Ugh, I'm not dissing the moon, and I never even mentioned the earth. I could write an essay on the linkages between sun/earth if you'd like but it's irrelevant.
Sorry for trying to bring up points of theory. I see that this group is more concerned with "I feel" than "I think" in any case.
Nevermind.
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@A Shadow said
"Ugh, I'm not dissing the moon, and I never even mentioned the earth. I could write an essay on the linkages between sun/earth if you'd like but it's irrelevant.
Sorry for trying to bring up points of theory. I see that this group is more concerned with "I feel" than "I think" in any case.
Nevermind."
Ah, my favorite! Argumentum ad Condescension.
Seriously, though.
I didn't mean to offend or make you feel ganged up on in any way. I just felt that my theoretical motivations have been clear since the beginning: symmetry and equilibrium. Let me see if I can address your theoretical worries. I apologize if I appear to have not take your thoughts seriously. While I will admit that there is emotion and intuition involved in my desire to integrate lunar adorations into my practice, there are also several theoretical justifications. I am, if anything, too focused on my intellectual side, and have been actively trying to avoid pedantic discussions when it seems people understand my intent. This practice has led to me being flippant with you, and I apologize.
Theoretical justifications:
There are two primary heavenly bodies, both of which go through cycles of relation with the Earth, and adoration of the divine feminine in one of Her most ancient of acknowledged manifestations balances the adoration of the divine masculine in the Sun. The reason for it to be "Resh like" is the following of a cycle. The reason for New and Full Moon versions is to acknowledge its cycle of change, just as the Dawn, Noon, Sunset, and Midnight Resh adorations follow the cycle of relational change with the sun. The theory is that, quite simply, the Sun isn't all there is and isn't the only pattern affecting us as embodied or spiritual beings. To acknowledge these cycles ritually is to purify and consecrate our ongoing relation with the principles of nature in all of their forms.
I would also argue for sabbats for the same reason. The cycle of the seasons and their effects on human life has been one of the most important factors in our biological, social, and spiritual lives for the vast majority of the time humanity has existed. To focus on one cycle, that of the day, and ignore the other cycles, those of the seasons and the Moon, ignores the principle of symmetry and also the notion of genuine magick and spirituality reflecting actual reality.
Of course, I also acknowledge the distinct sense in which the Sun is God, period, and that adoration of Him is also adoration of the Holy Guardian Angel. But these are two different levels of the concept of the Sun as deity...in one sense a god among other gods, and as such masculine, fiery, active, etc, but in another sense the Sun as God of Gods, the One Most High, beyond any gender or polarity. Both concepts are there in the Resh adorations.
I would also argue that from a qabalistic point of view, the Moon/Yesod is in the Middle Pillar and thus can be seen as the divine reflection of Keter in Yetzirah, as well as a manifestation of Binah via 3^3.
Is that enough theory for you?
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Ah, that's more like what I was looking for. Thanks.
I appreciated:
"The reason for New and Full Moon versions is to acknowledge its cycle of change, just as the Dawn, Noon, Sunset, and Midnight Resh adorations follow the cycle of relational change with the sun."
I don't mean to over-intellectualize, but I myself find that if I don't structure my Magickal theory I'm apt to get silly ideas or go off on a useless tangent.
I accept your theory. I wonder if a more Dionysian/'Artemisian' bent to lunar work might also be appropriate however.
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@A Shadow said
"Ah, that's more like what I was looking for. Thanks.
I appreciated:
"The reason for New and Full Moon versions is to acknowledge its cycle of change, just as the Dawn, Noon, Sunset, and Midnight Resh adorations follow the cycle of relational change with the sun."
I don't mean to over-intellectualize, but I myself find that if I don't structure my Magical theory I'm apt to get silly ideas or go off on a useless tangent.
I accept your theory. I wonder if a more Dionysian/'Artemisian' bent to lunar work might also be appropriate however."
I have considered that as well, and am not opposed to an Artemisian current. It seems to me, however, that the Dionysian current would be, because of the hermaphroditic and thus Mercurial aspect, would possibly conflict.