Leaving Malkuth
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@PatchworkSerpen said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Having first become solidly grounded in your senses (since people, especially occultists, usually haven't "made it all the way into their bodies yet" - don't miss that step)"Do you mind elaborating on this, in a metaphysical sense? Is that to do with actual incarnation or something more subtle- and why occultists?
I might speculate (and it's a big one) that this is due to the development of the Ruach in the past Aeon, which might render the process of incarnation longer or more complicated."Not sure what you mean by "in a metaphysical sense."
You seem to be asking "why is this so?" I try not to do "why" questions. If I were to guess, my guesses would be similar to yours. The late Brugh Joy once observed that, if you start with an equal-armed cross, you can see the change in how much people en masse were alienated from earth and sensation by how high the cross-bar has risen over time!
But I'm more interested that it's so than why it's so.
There is an old Kabbalistic teaching that seems dead-on: It is that humanity is not primarily a physical being, but is primarily (one might correctly say "fundamentally") a Yetziratic being. (If you want a doctrinal key for that, ADM, Adam, "humanity," has the same numeric value as the Secret Name of Yetzirah.) We are still undertaking to complete fully incarnating our flesh.
In practice, it's simpler: It's obvious, from simple observation, that most people live more in the immediacy of their thoughts, emotions, and imaginings than in the immediacy of their physical sensations. And occultiests (especially male occultists) tend to be among the worst! It's easy enough to get people toi get out of their bodies... once we get them into their bodies!
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Hmmmmmm I ask my question on 26 April 2009:
Would it be correct to say the consciousness of uninitiated people may be at Netzach or Hod or Yesod before completing involution at Malkuth whereupon real initiation may begin? For example teenage boys may feel the urge to become somebody, expressed in lifting weights and bodybuilding. Surely this is an example of the instinct to incarnate on Malkuth or, as the Hindus would say, the path of becoming?
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I receive the answer on 26 January 2010:
@Jim Eshelman said
"There is an old Kabbalistic teaching that seems dead-on: It is that humanity is not primarily a physical being, but is primarily (one might correctly say "fundamentally") a Yetziratic being. (If you want a doctrinal key for that, ADM, Adam, "humanity," has the same numeric value as the Secret Name of Yetzirah.) We are still undertaking to complete fully incarnating our flesh.
In practice, it's simpler: It's obvious, from simple observation, that most people live more in the immediacy of their thoughts, emotions, and imaginings than in the immediacy of their physical sensations. And occultiests (especially male occultists) tend to be among the worst! It's easy enough to get people toi get out of their bodies... once we get them into their bodies!"
Duly noted
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Ironically, it seems to have taken exactly 9 months to get this into a body for you
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Alrah, 93,
"How can men not be 'in thier bodies' while having sexual thoughts and a regular twitch in thier trousers?
"Because I can have a thought and be miles outside my body. I can be thinking about a woman I once met or knew, or a woman I've never met. And so on.
Having a thought about someone is often the diametrical opposite from being in the body in relation to the person who is the object of the thought. We are mostly creatures of Yetzirah, and sorting out our relationship to Assiah is one of our biggest problems.93 93/93,
Edward
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Ironically, it seems to have taken exactly 9 months to get this into a body for you
"I've also been eating pomegranates for the last month so something must be in the air...
I was married to a Lilith/femme fatale for 11 years and I noticed a very curious quality to that relationship. It had a heavy dream quality, almost surreal or unreal, yet deja vu at the same time. In the most intimate moments, lying in bed, I would reach out and touch her because I felt like I was physically fading away, that none of it was real, only a dream.. Curious eh?
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@Alrah said
"Um. From my observations the primary hobby, occupation and focus of humanity is sex."
But not so much by being in their bodies! The primary errogenous zone remains the brain. The amount of sexual dissatisfaction and other unhappiness in the world is pretty heavily related to people not actually being in their bodies.
"And I read somewhere (and some men have confirmed it to me) that they get a sexual thought and a twitch in thier trousers - well - a lot."
Yes. The predictable part is the thought. Like I said above.
"How can men not be 'in thier bodies' while having sexual thoughts and a regular twitch in thier trousers?"
The thought is on the mental plane. The imagination that goes with it is also Yetziratic. Etc. The twitch is what the body does when the thought triggers something. But the experience is in the head. (The one on the neck, not the other one.)
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93, Hell I get that fading away feeling in normal everyday life. Neer have been able tofigure out what exactly the cause is. Had it since a meditation breakthrough in like '03. I don't like it, but don't know how to fix it.
I think both men and women think of sex the same, regardless of these supposed studies. The only time I think of sex that much is when I focus on not thinking about it. Lol -
Alrah, 93,
"When you think of a woman, do you think of her in sensory terms? Her looks, her smell, the feel of her? How can know her thus except in relation to your own physical self? She is your moon and reflection, and your relation to her is thus one of discrimination. Or do you think of the divinity of her, beyond what is 'you' and what is 'her'? There is no relation, only unity. The 4 worlds are one, and all sephiroth are found in Malkuth."
Whether I think of her in sensory terms or in terms of her intellect/lunar-nature/divinity,I'm still thinking. Yes, I am thinking in relation to the physical, and the two are not utterly separate. But they are experienced as being distinct. Maybe this isn't true for you - but it is for me, and for most people I've ever met. To deny one's own subjective experience is to step away from reality, not to get closer to it. Throwing a Zen aphorism at that reality doesn't change the reality except through creating a self-deception.
The same principle applies with the Four Worlds, where we need to work and grow on a basis of Solve et Coagula. Before it's remotely meaningful to say "the 4 worlds are one," we need to experience them as distinct. And doing that all the way up through Atziluth is work enough for a dozen of most people's lifetimes.93 93/93,
Edward
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Alrah, 93,
"It is then that the principles of Solve et Coagula can be properly applied as more than a mere intellectual exercise utilized in mastering the self referencial question.
Spending a lifetime climbing halfway up a mountain is fine if you don't mind doing it again next time."
I can agree with what you said about conventional and ultimate truths. But I'm not proposing "a mere intellectual exercise," nor do I see this as a "self-referential question" at all. You seem, always, to have any initiated practical Hermetic system in your gunsights because of your own reported bad experience with one. Apparently, you won't or can't acknowledge that such systems are viable, and take us well beyond intellectual exercises.
I'll decide about going to the top of the mountain after I've reached the halfway point. Ditto for seeing that there's no mountain there to begin with.
I wish you believed in methodology. You seem to prefer poetic exhortation. Sorry, but I don't find that approach particularly helpful, even if it refreshes the mind and soul when the system seems to offer only a dry road. We still need the system.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Alrah, 93,
"Therefore - Solve et Coagula in the pre-Tiphareth phase is primarily the work of the intellect, uniting all opposites (including self and other by facing the self referencial question) in order to bring the mind to perfect passivity so that the Kundalini may rise to the crown and the absolute reality may be experienced. After this stage, Solve et Coagula comes to mean something different to the adept.
"I'd hardly call the graded, initiatory process leading to Tiphereth an intellectual one. It largely undermines the tyranny of intellect, in order to clear pathways for the HGA to communicate.
Obviously, you're working with a different approach to the one I learned and know, or those I've discussed with people in other Orders. For example, I never heard anyone describe the experience of Tiphereth as one of the Kundalini rising to produce an experience of 'Absolute Reality.' (Assuming Briatic consciousness does not open us to Absolute Reality, since I've always assumed that to be the Atziluth stage). [Irrelevant, smart-ass remark deleted here].
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Iugum said
"...I was wondering if there is a shared, common, maybe even universal (if I may use that word) process, arrangement or emanation (such as the appearance of a "demon in the form of a woman to pervert him") which marks the "breaking" into, or becoming connected with Yetzirah and the Yetziric consciousness and Tau?"
Everyone is different - especially at the beginning (or "breaking into") part of the phase. That's because everyone is starting in a different place, with different physical and psychological conditions, different karma, different personal history. Also, some of these "symptoms" start so gradually that you don't even notice at first, and then realize, after a while, that they've been going on a while; others can hit like a truck you didn't see coming. Again, this varies per person.
In my own case, keys that stretched over a year or more were the gradual emerging of auditory instruction from "Adonai," and a specific event of quite intense waking up of all the chakras and primary kundalini break-through that came in within a couple of days. But these, though common, aren't "standardized."
You seem to be asking how success is assessed. It's not evaluated by such spontaneous events, but by the ability to pass standardized examination.
"For instance, are there some "road signs" or clear cut ordeals, conventional or otherwise, which may show the student that they are walking the correct path or that they have arrived at that certain point?"
This is the reason I continue to recommend that the A.'.A.'. system not be followed as a truly solitary route, but only under the guidance of one who has been admitted and passed through the same stages - that is, the formal method. Even if you had the kind of check list you are asking about, there isn't any way you can really judge yourself - somebody else has to do it. Nobody (especially at the stage under discussion) is enough outside their own box to evaluate this objectively.
That's a great phrase... "walking the correct path." It looks like you're trying to monitor progress along the way. That's really hard. It's MUCH easier to assess the success point at the end. But, whether as a solitary or working within the Order, one will often (I think usually) have a fairly meandering route. A lot of aspirants take the meandering scenic route! A given person may have to go "off the road" to get to the end. But in the end, the question is whether you have acquired the particular capacity - in this case, the ability to journey the astral to a specific, pre-determined location, just as distinct as if you took a physical trip to a new location, and observe what is there and report on it, etc.
For example: I have on my desk right now the exam I gave to a Neophyte recently. One of the questions on this subject was, "Create the sigil of the Angelic Choir of Tiphereth. Using this as a focal point, undertake an astral journey to encounter and interact with these angels. Bring back at least one new key to your own distinctive Great Work. Write up and submit an account of the vision." This question is customized to the individual each time, but notice how it requires certain technical knowledge up front, then primarily tests the actual ability to "do the deed."
"Maybe something profound happens that has nothing to do with Magick or Mysticism, or possibly the student has a flash of understanding which they never had before, either subtle or intense and palpable, that they may or may not even understand and which some people who don't work within an Order or have immediate teacher would never notice as being one of those "signs" and crawl around confused."
Don't worry about this. Worry about the actual work. This is a really common mistake. We get dozens of posts on this forum, from various people, that boil down to, "I had this amazing experience that I don't understand, can you explain it to me." In truth, it's important to have amazing experiences, but not usually very important what they are. All they mean are that you have amazing experiences (and that fact, alone, does mark a certain step in the work - a mark that "the fixed is being volatilized" - unless you're someone who has always had "amazing psychic experiences," in which case it just means that you haven't gotten very grounded yet. See how it varies per person?)
Read the first couple of sections of Liber O. These have the best advice on the subject. Read it yourself, in the context of your present questions, to get the full impact. But the gist of it is that if you get on with the work you will have all sorts of amazing experiences, and should never give to them the import they appear to have at that time. You should have them, write them down in the diary, and go on. Keep going until you can under take an astral "journey" to any particular part of the Yetziratic world you elect (any part of the Tree, let's say) and have actual new experience.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"For example: I have on my desk right now the exam I gave to a Neophyte recently. One of the questions on this subject was, "Create the sigil of the Angelic Choir of Tiphereth. Using this as a focal point, undertake an astral journey to encounter and interact with these angels. Bring back at least one new key to your own distinctive Great Work. Write up and submit an account of the vision." This question is customized to the individual each time, but notice how it requires certain technical knowledge up front, then primarily tests the actual ability to "do the deed.""
Interesting- I notice this is different from the past examination method of providing an unknown symbol and requiring them to identify it astrally.
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@PatchworkSerpen said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"For example: I have on my desk right now the exam I gave to a Neophyte recently. One of the questions on this subject was, "Create the sigil of the Angelic Choir of Tiphereth. Using this as a focal point, undertake an astral journey to encounter and interact with these angels. Bring back at least one new key to your own distinctive Great Work. Write up and submit an account of the vision." This question is customized to the individual each time, but notice how it requires certain technical knowledge up front, then primarily tests the actual ability to "do the deed.""Interesting- I notice this is different from the past examination method of providing an unknown symbol and requiring them to identify it astrally."
No, it isn't. It's the same exam. - Historically, the symbol onm question usually (not always) was just such a sigil, and the proof is in the quality and content of the vision, not the ignorance of the Neophyte. Note that the assignment was not stated as "identify it" - the wording is, "he must interpret its nature by means of a vision as exactly as if he had read its name and description in the book when it was chosen."
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@PatchworkSerpen said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"For example: I have on my desk right now the exam I gave to a Neophyte recently. One of the questions on this subject was, "Create the sigil of the Angelic Choir of Tiphereth. Using this as a focal point, undertake an astral journey to encounter and interact with these angels. Bring back at least one new key to your own distinctive Great Work. Write up and submit an account of the vision." This question is customized to the individual each time, but notice how it requires certain technical knowledge up front, then primarily tests the actual ability to "do the deed.""Interesting- I notice this is different from the past examination method of providing an unknown symbol and requiring them to identify it astrally."
No, it isn't. It's the same exam. - Historically, the symbol onm question usually (not always) was just such a sigil, and the proof is in the quality and content of the vision, not the ignorance of the Neophyte. Note that the assignment was not stated as "identify it" - the wording is, "he must interpret its nature by means of a vision as exactly as if he had read its name and description in the book when it was chosen.""
I see. I suppose I thought that the use of an unknown symbol would make it harder for the Neophyte to 'fake', or be influenced by suggestion or their own preconceptions of said symbol. Is a true astral vision unmistakable?
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"Is a true astral vision unmistakable?"
Nothing is unmistakable. But an authentic vision has characteristics that someone experienced in the matter can easily recognize.
By comparison: I know the north half of Puerto Rico pretty well. If you told me that you had been there in the last year and we had a conversation about it, I would be particularly qualified to tell whether this was true or not - not just by the facts you stated, but by any number of more subtle indications that would be extremely difficult for you to get from any source but being there (even from a comprehensive briefing from someone who had been there). It's very hard for even really bright and skilled people to fake real experience.