Three aspects of Da'ath
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I think the main point here is the one I keep making when I say it's an important symbol that Da'ath is not a sephirah.
The key idea is that there is no such thing as Da'ath; that is, there is no such thing as knowledge. Not a thing in itself. Knowledge is all relationship. It's an interwoven Tower of Babel where every idea helkd is not a thing in itself, but something existing only from relationship to other ideas... which in turn only exist by relationship to still other ideas... often with two or more things only existing as synonyms of each other and, therefore, having no independent, distinctive definition. It's all relationship...
The only break out of the loop is experience. If you have experience of a thing, then you know (to some extent) what it is, and don't require the definition loops to provide it to you.
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Jim what you just said leads me to believe that apart from any mystical or magical achievement - "crossing the abyss" into binah might be summarized as "having the experience of something for which you previously only had the knowledge"?
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@Tinman said
"Jim what you just said leads me to believe that apart from any mystical or magical achievement - "crossing the abyss" into binah might be summarized as "having the experience of something for which you previously only had the knowledge"?"
Can't disagree with that.
Da'ath is the apex of the Ruach. It is knowledge zoomed to the infinite level, particle data saturation of the brain, etc. etc. I say particle data because the distinctive sub-abyssmal mode of thought (related to Air, Sword, infinite division) is characterized by "opposing things are perceived as separate." Having the particle-data-saturation fully awake in the brain either leads to insanity (if one doesn't make the key transition), or so flipping to a non-particle state of consciousness where "opposing things are perceived as the same" ("two sides of a coin = a coin" consciousness).
And yes, the paradox of Binah being related to Saturn - the most material of planets - is resolved in the observation that the M.T. more consistently perceives things for what they inherently and actually are, rather than in terms of idea of projection.
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Jim,
I'm trying to organize my thoughts on the matter, and relating it to the other recent Da'ath thread.
I posted this in the other thread
"Interestingly, there is a distinction made in both Genesis, and the Gnostic myths, between the void/abyss/watery deep, and the surface. Sophia hovers and plays along the surface. Several people in the thread have mentioned the concept of "reflection", and the surface of still water is the original mirror. She pursues the reflected illusion, and disturbs the surface with her hovering/swimming, at once shattering illusion and passing through the other side into the abyss (Alice in Wonderland anyone?). In the abyss (as pointed out, meaning bottomless, or no-ground, or nothing solid, physical), which is a sort of chaotic pre-matter from which she gives birth to the physical world."
And I'm wondering whether Da'ath is like the mirror. We use the mirror to compare and reflect on real experiences, but what we see in the mirror, and our 'reflections' on the meaning of things, are ultimately illusions. This is the entrance into the abyss, a formless world of pure potential. For Sophia, the downward exit was about shifting from potential into direct physical experience (our physical universe). For the person seeking attainment, they would pass through the similar mirror of Da'ath, and into the abyss, but their climb out of the abyss would involve passing into direct experience of a non-material kind (I won't describe what I don't know, here).
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"And I'm wondering whether Da'ath is like the mirror. We use the mirror to compare and reflect on real experiences, but what we see in the mirror, and our 'reflections' on the meaning of things, are ultimately illusions."
I wouldn't say that Da'ath itself is a mirror (even though a mirror plays a really big role in the Temple of Thelema ceremony for the Da'ath degree). I'm not saying it's not so... just that it doesn't register that way in my mind.
But the Abyss itself - in contrast to Da'ath (which shouldn't be confused with the Abyss) - that's another possibility. The idea of a body of water of bottomless depth works in so many ways as an analogy for the Abyss, and this, of course, would be barely distinguishable from a "black mirror" reflective surface.
And, of course, the best mirror is our own projections. Now, in passing through the Abyss these are lost; but in approaching the Abyss they can be surrealistically extreme.
"For the person seeking attainment, they would pass through the similar mirror of Da'ath, and into the abyss, but their climb out of the abyss would involve passing into direct experience of a non-material kind (I won't describe what I don't know, here)."
One doesn't climb out of the Abyss. One passes through it.
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@Alrah said
"Having particle data saturation - (or overload) - in the fully functioning brain results in the priority of some types of functioning over others, in the same way that blood will retreat to keep the essential organs warm in cold tempratures."
That's true of a brain (under most conditions) where consciousness hasn't hit Da'ath. One of the really remarkable conditions here is that this capacity is lost temporarily - the sanity-producing capacity for selective perception is suspended. - I suspect the change is closer to that which happens to hearing as one ages, where the ability to easily distinguish foreground-background distinctions disappears.
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@Alrah said
"As a frequent flier to the hot regions of Lala land (pretty colours), I can see why you'd equate this state with Da'ath, but it can be appreciated in other ways where the suspension of selective perception is not turned off by overload, but by conscious cessation of ego feedback where the vehicle remains fully functional."
BTW, I didn't mean to infer that the one causes the other - only that they both exist at that this point. (I may have gotten sloppy with language. No time to go back and review this morning.)
"If that's all there was to the appreciation of Da'ath then anyone who's dropped LSD can get the silly idea that they've 'done the abyss'. Altered perception through overload may afford a bit of a glimpse through the keyhole but it's not the same as going through the door."
Exactlly: There are all sorts of things that can cause one to dip into one state or another - including this one. "Dipping in" isn't the same as "attaining."
My point is only that "Da'ath means Knowledge" is expressed as the apex of Ruach where all knowledge - all content of all part of the mind soever, unfiltered by selective perception - all data points soever - concurrently is "on" and active in the mind.
It isn't ego-suspension which causes this particular phenomena but, rather, ego-suspension which determines whether one comes through it are stays stuck in madness.
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93,
Drugs, in my experience, are windows, not doors. The Divine is not a molecule...or It's all molecules, plus some other stuff.
93, 93/83
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@Alrah said
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@hepuck said
"93,Drugs, in my experience, are windows, not doors. The Divine is not a molecule...or It's all molecules, plus some other stuff.
93, 93/83"
Sure, but if Aldous Huxley had written 'The Windows of Perception' then who would have bought tickets to see The Doors?
Have you read that btw? I love reading records of very earnest young men, (and if it's Victoriana all the better), and thier experiments with various substances imported from the far reaches of the British empire.
They're so sweet! lol."93,
Ah, we share this! Yes, I have read The Doors of Perception. The edition I owned had all these photographs of spiderwebs spun by spiders on acid. I too love the earnestness of that era...being blase is so boring.
93, 93/93
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If this is going to turn into a Huxley etc. thread, please take it somewhere else and I'll delete those posts here.
This forum expects (and more or less enforces) thread continuity. Brief digressions that quickly return to the original topic are always going to happen, and often support the original topic. When it starts to look like someone is permanently changing the direction of the thread, we put an end to it.
New topic = new thread, please.
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And now back to our regularly scheduled thread
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@Jim Eshelman said
"And now back to our regularly scheduled thread
Thanks."And things were just getting interesting!
I'd just like to hazard a few words on the topic of Da'ath and the "psychedelic experience," as this topic was one of my major reasons on bringing up Da'ath in the first place.
"If that's all there was to the appreciation of Da'ath then anyone who's dropped LSD can get the silly idea that they've 'done the abyss'. "
And this is often the case. As a former acid-fancier I feel qualified to break this down a little further. First: LSD, among other things, replicates a "beatific" experience. The results of this are a) a destruction of ego and b) an increase in awareness. Second: an untrained mind, confronted with the presence of the divine, may actualyl consider this experience real. The results of this are a) egomania and b) delusion, among other things.
Now, witness the cases of Charles Manson, Jim Morrison, Timothy Leary, and countless others: men who were nobody before their "experience," and suddenly rose to prominence, full of power and authority. How is this so? Well, they had access, even if momentarily, to the "place beyond definition," the realm of genius. They brought this inspiration into manifestation for either good or ill, depending on their dis-position.
To bring this into relation with Da'ath.
Now, what is important is the primary choice involved in these experiences. And this is where Da'ath comes in. Da'ath, being the Sephira that is not a Sephira, and occupying no place, seems to me the realm between choices, that critical juncture in all religious experience where the aspirant either becomes one with the divine, or reverts their power to personal ends, becoming a Black Brother.
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JPF, 93,
"Da'ath, being the Sephira that is not a Sephira, and occupying no place, seems to me the realm between choices, that critical juncture in all religious experience where the aspirant either becomes one with the divine, or reverts their power to personal ends, becoming a Black Brother."
I think Da'ath is getting too much attention here. Each Sephirah exists in four worlds, remember. We're most familiar with those of Yetzirah and Assiah (very crudely: thought, and action on the physical plane) but we're way less in touch (consciously) with Briah, let alone Atziluth. A lot of things we figure might be Briatic or Atziluthic are, in truth, simply very clear or intense experiences occurring within Yetzirah. Yetzirah can be experienced as crude, or refined. It's like coffee: good Java and throat-searing sludge are still (technically, anyway!) coffee.
Each of the sephiroth, then, offers opportunities to "become one with the divine," or let our power revert to personal ends. No-one is fully a Black Brother who has not approached the Abyss and rejected the crossing, but there are lots of "brethren in the shadow-places" on the way there.93 93/93,
Edward
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@Alrah said
"How did 'black brothers' work their way into this thread? Knowledge of good and evil?
"Black Brothers are pretty native to any discussion of Da'ath or the Abyss. Good vs. evil isn't an issue - it isn't the same as "black magician."
"Black Brother" is a technical term for an Adeptus Exemptus who resists / refuses the Abyss at the time it would be developmentally appropriate.
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@Edward Mason said
"I think Da'ath is getting too much attention here. "
I wouldn't have brought it up at all, but there arose inconsistencies in the prescribed literature of Thelema (I refer here to 777,) and I had hoped to clear these up through simple, sincere questioning.
On one side, an Adept says that Da'ath is the goal of the Magnum Opus (no small statement), and on the other, I'm told that Da'ath is a minor and thoroughly ambiguous blip on an otherwise important map .
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@Alrah said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Alrah said
"How did 'black brothers' work their way into this thread? Knowledge of good and evil?"Black Brothers are pretty native to any discussion of Da'ath or the Abyss. Good vs. evil isn't an issue - it isn't the same as "black magician."
"Black Brother" is a technical term for an Adeptus Exemptus who resists / refuses the Abyss at the time it would be developmentally appropriate."
You don't think the refusal is often made for 'seemingly' moral reasons?"
Actually, no. I think it's primarily for (1) egoic reasons or (2) over-valuation of intellect (which is mostly, but not entirely the same thing). A variation on (1), which is at the root of most of it, is fear.
But (what is usually meant by) moral reasons? No, I'm not sure I've ever seen that or heard of it.
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@JPF said
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@Edward Mason said
"I think Da'ath is getting too much attention here. "I wouldn't have brought it up at all, but there arose inconsistencies in the prescribed literature of Thelema (I refer here to 777,) and I had hoped to clear these up through simple, sincere questioning."
I'm not sure what you mean. What inconsistencies in prescribed literature? (What is "prescribed literature"?)
"On one side, an Adept says that Da'ath is the goal of the Magnum Opus (no small statement), and on the other, I'm told that Da'ath is a minor and thoroughly ambiguous blip on an otherwise important map ."
What adept says that Da'ath is the goal of the Magnum Opus?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@JPF said
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@Edward Mason said
"I think Da'ath is getting too much attention here. "I wouldn't have brought it up at all, but there arose inconsistencies in the prescribed literature of Thelema (I refer here to 777,) and I had hoped to clear these up through simple, sincere questioning."
I'm not sure what you mean. What inconsistencies in prescribed literature? (What is "prescribed literature"?)
"On one side, an Adept says that Da'ath is the goal of the Magnum Opus (no small statement), and on the other, I'm told that Da'ath is a minor and thoroughly ambiguous blip on an otherwise important map ."
What adept says that Da'ath is the goal of the Magnum Opus?"
By prescribed literature I mean literature mentioned in the AA curriculum.
And again I quote:
"Now the Tree, or Minutum Mundum, is a Figure in a Plane of a solid Universe. Daath, being above the Plane is therefore a Figure of a Force in four Dimensions, and thus it is the Object of the Magnum Opus. --Alan Bennett, "Qabalistic Dogma""
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@JPF said
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"Now the Tree, or Minutum Mundum, is a Figure in a Plane of a solid Universe. Daath, being above the Plane is therefore a Figure of a Force in four Dimensions, and thus it is the Object of the Magnum Opus. --Alan Bennett, "Qabalistic Dogma""
"Bennett was from the generation of seekers who thought Knowledge the highest goal.
He was an Adept in the G.D. sense. FWIW I'm sure that (at the time he wrote the above) he wasn't anything like an adept in the A.'.A.'. sense. (I doubt he got past about A.'.A.'. 2=9 while still in the G.D. I suspect he got WAY past it later, as part of his Buddhist work.)