Symbolic act of Christ
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@Foolster said
"I don't see thelema proper catching on, ever. It's too "dungeons and dragons" for the typical laymen. Also It comes across as anti-thetical to the message or major religions so it only appeals to the few who can dig deep and see the golden path Liber AL is advocating."
It's only D&D because of some elements of its contemporary culture. That, of course, would have to change, i.e., a different element of Thelemic culture (currently more quiet) needs to be its mainstream face.
And it is the very fact that it is antithetical to the message of historic major religions is the whole point. It represents a quantum leap in social perspective. That quantum leap is the important issue in the long run, not its religious forms.
I do think, though, that the mainstreaming of Thelema into human society over the next few centuries will not necessarily include any mention of either Aleister Crowley or The Book of the Law. It is the underlying ideas that are inseminating mass consciousness. For decades, they've been emerging with increasing prominence, and are active elements of the cultural wars currently occurring (both the quiet ones and the noisy ones).
"I was speaking of creating something more tangential and dresses itself in the guise of Islam, Judaism and xianity, while being more explicit in the precepts laid out in AL, armed with the fire of gnosis."
I have said for decades that if Christianity caught on to the archetypal change and placed the emphasis primarily on the Christ Child as the path of new promise, they could buy an extra few centuries for themselves as the dominant paradigm.
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I would suggest reading some OSHO. OSHO did this wonderful thing, which maybe we all do to some extent, but which he did very deliberately and with much success. He was able to discuss all faiths from within their own systems. So a person hearing OSHO talk about Christ, would hear OSHO talking about Christ, about God, about all the things that are comfortable to her or him. The entire time OSHO would be explaining his own system, but he'd be doing it so slyly under the context of the system he was talking about that he could reach anyone, regardless of religous-bias.
Not that the hack and slash method isn't a valuable tool - I'm just saying there are other tools that you may want to consider for your toolkit.
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Good stuff. Fwiw I'm throwing up some ideas to get feedback. I like feedback.
Jim, you consider that neither crowley or AL may play a visible part in the propogation of the ideals set forth in AL, so then with this dispensation of a quantumn shift in perspective wouldn't it them perhaps be true that we could see this type of consciousness transforming the world religions? After all, Lubavitcher Hasidism is a far cry from the Judaism of 3k years ago. So may it be in another 1k when the notion of circle and point, true will and expansion of consciousness on a more massive sCale begin reinterpreting new forms aided by the influx of this new dispensation. Not a mere rearranging but a transmutation from the lead it is into Gold.
Interesting Convo!
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@Foolster said
"Jim, you consider that neither crowley or AL may play a visible part in the propogation of the ideals set forth in AL, so then with this dispensation of a quantumn shift in perspective wouldn't it them perhaps be true that we could see this type of consciousness transforming the world religions?"
Possibly. Liber L., after all, makes room for the worship of more or less any god one wishes but in the context that what we mean by Horus is behind (or at the center) of it all.
Nonetheless, and while I believe extant religions could extend their lifespan with the right moves, and while I'm sure they'll at least survive in pockets, I think the eventual path must be their near-abolishment. Ultimately, I think the biggest thiong wrong with Christianity is the rotting and pollution of the body, not its spirit - and I don't see that troxicity being removable on the astral (nonmaterial) levels by any means at all. We just need to cremate it eventually.
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It's really easy to get the impression of Christianity being of a rather fixed form for a very long time. But it has been going through pretty big transformations from the very beginning, which is why I'd agree with Jim and say that another tweaking is only going to buy it so much time.
In the Gospels (including a very interesting parallel passage in the Gospel of Thomas) it's an ongoing background debate about Jesus as prophet, angel, reincarnated prophet, God, son of God, wise man, etc. (Thomas' didn't even try to define him, when asked... which is priceless!). And the popular motif evolved over time. You have early representations of the young Christ as a shepherd boy, early Roman and Byzantine depictions of him as a powerful Magician, a powerful solar God in the middle ages, a suffering man on the cross in Northern European renaissance art, a humanist, compassionate teacher in some 19th century protestant sects, the holy fool who can't catch a break because the rest of us are such bast***s in everything from Dostoevsky's "The Idiot" to "Cool Hand Look",
and - dare I say it - an zen Buddhist techno-pagan occultist mashup in "The Matrix" and "the Da Vinci Code" thanks to the Nag Hammadi re-discovery.We can debate about what the central formulas are (or should be), but one thing is clear to me: the self-sacrificing redeemer formula is dead. You can almost hear the audience groan every time that one shows up in a movie.
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I guess I'm chomping at the bit. Every religion needs a mythos to serve as a vehicle for transmittance and I just do not see thelema operating as the next universal mythos, that's why I was scheming regarding the hijacking, if you will, of a current vehicle so we don't have to reinvent the wheel etc.
Mormonism added onto xianity and teaches the concepts of eternal evolution to godhood and employs some other interesting mystical concepts. Now they are 15 million strong and have some clout, be it financial or cultural.
What is the next mythos. Does Thelema expect a prophet/s to follow after crowley? The only mythos I can see developing is a space oriented one where the Inter-dimensional beings who pretend to be aliens would make open contact, THAT would disrupt the 3 abrahamic religions. And if that doesn't happen I'm open to seeing the Vatican, Mecca and Jerusalem in ashes.
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@Foolster said
"Mormonism added onto xianity and teaches the concepts of eternal evolution to godhood and employs some other interesting mystical concepts. Now they are 15 million strong and have some clout, be it financial or cultural. "
Yeah, but they were started by a prophet who claimed some angel came and gave him a book. What do we have to compete with that?
"What is the next mythos."
What's wrong with the one we have? (It need not look like old fashioned mytgh-making. For example, it need not have a story element.) You don't have to have aliens to have an archetypal framework based on a vision of space.
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@Foolster said
"What is the next mythos. Does Thelema expect a prophet/s to follow after crowley?"
There is some talk of a child, yes.
And as far as the development of Thelema is concerned: no major religion became wide-scale overnight. It is a long and tedious process, and often involves blood.
"what is the next mythos?"
I think there is plenty of mythos surrounding Thelema to satisfy the average mortal.
The D & D shit is only the mainstream perspective.
And since when has any Hermetic school or system adhered to the conceptions of the masses?
The Mysteries of Thelema are for the kings, and it is best kept that way. The masses are already manipulated in ways none of us here will probably ever comprehend. Christianity cannot last more than a couple more generations, at most.
The "conerstone" spoken of in the gospels is starting to look more like a sphere.
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@JPF said
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@Foolster said
"What is the next mythos. Does Thelema expect a prophet/s to follow after crowley?"There is some talk of a child, yes."
But there's no indication that the child is another prophet - just that he (and it is specified as a he) is a child.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@JPF said
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@Foolster said
"What is the next mythos. Does Thelema expect a prophet/s to follow after crowley?"There is some talk of a child, yes."
But there's no indication that the child is another prophet - just that he (and it is specified as a he) is a child."
True. But he will explain the mysteries. And looking at the variety of opinions and doctrines and utter BS surrounding Thelema, it would be nice if somebody would take charge and clear things up. Divinely inspired, of course.
There is also some talk of a prophet to come at the end of this Aeon, if I am not mistaken.
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@JPF said
"There is also some talk of a prophet to come at the end of this Aeon, if I am not mistaken."
One might, perhaps, better say, "at the beginning of the next." Every new aeon needs its prophet to launch it.
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"I think there is plenty of mythos surrounding Thelema to satisfy the average mortal."
i think you're out of touch with the average joe then. I run an international business and meet all sorts of individuals; most of them are "christian" but have little real interest in their Dog or what it means for them. The embody the corpse they grew up worshipping. Thelema is a niche product, and thats why it appeals to a niche group.
Anyway, no more prophets please! Haven't we had enough!?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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One might, perhaps, better say, "at the beginning of the next." Every new aeon needs its prophet to launch it."Isn't every end a new beginning?
"i think you're out of touch with the average joe then. I run an international business and meet all sorts of individuals; most of them are "christian" but have little real interest in their Dog or what it means for them. The embody the corpse they grew up worshipping. Thelema is a niche product, and thats why it appeals to a niche group. "
Well, that's your perspective, and you're entitled to it. But I'm inclined to think of Thelema not as a "product," per se, or something to be mass marketed, but as what it is: infinite, empty, omniform. The desire to classify, distinguish, interpret and dogmatize is the same desire that created the same horrors you see in Christianity. Why would we wish to install Thelema in its place? To create a fresh tyrant for willing sheep? There will always be sheep, at least as long as the current gene pool remains un-chlorinated. You speak of enlightening the average man. What makes you think the average man wants to be enlightened? How do you know it is even his Will to be enlightened?
No matter how many veils you tear away, your average mortal will still refuse to comprehend the divine.
"Some are born to sweet delight..."
All is every as it has been and should be.
(A glance at Liber AL vel Legis might dispel certain of your notions regarding Thelema.
)"Anyway, no more prophets please! Haven't we had enough!? "
There will always be prophets.
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@Foolster said
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"I think there is plenty of mythos surrounding Thelema to satisfy the average mortal."i think you're out of touch with the average joe then."
I'm absolutely uninterested in the average joe - as they exist at this point in time. My point is, in part, that Thelema will not mainstream until the mainstream changes. I once thought this would take a thousand years or more, but (with accelerations occurring) I think this might be able to happen in half that time.
We have lots of time.
"Anyway, no more prophets please! Haven't we had enough!?
"We'll need one to overthrow Thelema in a millennium or two, and foster in whatever comes next.
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Christianity took 300 years to start becoming serious. Thelema has 500 years if you count Rabelais, but counting from Crowey just 100 years. This is still a very young concept. You gotta give it time to unfold…
The way i see Thelema taking hold is not as a religion or anything like that. It's by changing the consciousness of people, and that happens slowly without people ever noticing. And it's happening.
Look at Jay-Z at 15s or the lyrics on the song.
There are signs everywhere.About Christianity, it's already slowly eroding. Every country that legalizes abort or homosexual marriage kills a little bit more Christianity. Every christian who pays lip service instead of taking the commandments seriously or that believes in "my own vision of God" stab Christianity another wound. It's a matter of time.
PS: I still fear Thelema's Council of Nicea
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JayZ is doing it for $$. Go to a tool concert. Laser unicursal hexagrams, star of babalon banners and 15 minute intermissions where they lower 10' decagons from the ceiling that are inscribed with sigils.
Their studio is arranged according to the tree and Maynard sings from Ain Soph when recording.Anyway, I think my original point was lost and I didn't clearly communicate it because I liked hearing opinions. Talking about hastening the collapse of the abrahamic religions by attacking from within their ranks. You can let a building become delapidated or pack it full of explosives. Speaking purely metaphorical btw.
I want to see these fuckers go down, make no mistake; it's what I think about everyday. Anyone who would like to do some group work pm me because there is alot we can get done sitting right where we are.
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@Foolster said
"I want to see these {shaggers} go down, make no mistake; it's what I think about everyday. Anyone who would like to do some group work pm me because there is alot we can get done sitting right where we are."
Perhaps you are translating your internal strife to external matters.
The most effective changes come from within.
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@Foolster said
"Talking about hastening the collapse of the abrahamic religions by attacking from within their ranks. You can let a building become delapidated or pack it full of explosives. Speaking purely metaphorical btw."
There's another way. Unfortunately, it involves work, and not enough people have been willing to commit to the years of work needed.
In your building metaphor, the biggest way that old structures are being removed today is that somebody else builds something newer and cooler and better that people want to move relocate to. Eventually the old places are empty and then someone buys them to tear down and build a parking structure or mini-mall.
The metaphor is solid: We need people (lots of people! lots of groups! lots of ideas!) to build new cool stuff - visibly, creatively, intelligently, with follow-through and decades-long commitment to them as emergent institutions. When the new "architectural" standards become evident, people will "move into them" and vacate the old spots.
To make a perhaps unnecessarily uncompassionate comparison: Rats do not flee a sinking ship as long as it's still floating, even if it's only drift wood. They need someplace else to flee to.
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Jpf- your assessments are shallow and do not add anything to the conversation.
Jim: I like it. Having built up a an international business from nothing to something while taking out other corporations, I can say I know a bit about bringing a vision to fruition. I think there enough of us for some to handle demolition and others man the new construction. I think operating in silence or through proxies is a good idea too.