Heru-Ra-Ha, Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Hoor-Paar-Kraat, and Horus
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@Frater 639 said
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@Legis said
""Materialist explanations of mystical phenomena only satisfy those who fear the existence of metaphysical realities." "
"The ordeals I write not: the rituals will be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all.""
I'm not the one invoking "True Thelema" against mystics and mysticism.
You may save your sermons for the Inquisitor.
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Declaring the nature of reality is just a metaphor, whether from a materialist or any other single point of view.
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@Legis said
"I'm not the one invoking "True Thelema" against mystics and mysticism. You may save your sermons for the Inquisitor."
I wasn't directing that quote toward any one in particular. I just figured these concepts must be an ordeal for someone, since we keep witnessing pretty vehement and static beliefs on both sides.
@kasper81 said
" God-forms are just maps"
They are much more than "just maps," unless you don't want them to be.
@Av said
"Declaring the nature of reality is just a metaphor, whether from a materialist or any other single point of view."
Amen.
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"We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon.
Our method is science, our aim is religion.â-- Crowley
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@kasper81 said
"by the way, to me, it's got nothing to do with materialism if someone wants to take out the strange Egyptological mythological names out of the functionality of transcendental awareness i.e. awareness"
I have no problem with that at all. There are plenty of varieties of language to use for this sort of thing. Nor have I a problem with someone who, for sake of letting people get a handle on something, chooses to express a complex and far-reaching idea in simple (albeit diluted) language.
I have a problem with someone taking something immeasurably greater than anything that could conceivably be called human, or human-accessible, and treating it (seriously) as if those things are only human psychological matters.
"some people seem to want religion. They rejected their school teachers' religious spoonfeeding and presumably,their parents religion, but they still want to find it, and in Thelema"
Exactly. To reject a particular religion (or delivery system of religion) need not be to reject religion per se. Ultimately, that's the whole of what we're about - first and last - bringing people to a deepening spiritual experience of their lives, an increasingly conscious awareness and embracing of their full, immortal scope of which their present human expression is no more than a currently profitable metaphor.
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@kasper81 said
"Materialism: The doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."
Materialism isn't a "doctrine." It's the lack of belief in any worlds other than the material one.
I've never met a single person who believes, as a matter of doctrine or dogma, that the material world is all there is. I've met scores and scores of people who are unconvinced that any other worlds exist and who therefore currently lack a belief in any worlds besides the material.
I'm afraid that trying to define materialism as a "doctrine" or a "belief" is nothing more than a clumsy attempt to make all positions whatsoever look like religions and, by implication, to suggest that "ahh, everybody's got equally unjustified beliefs in something, so it's all a wash...."
You could see why someone would try that, but it's not going to work on people who are at least partway paying attention.
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@Los said
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@kasper81 said
"Materialism: The doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."Materialism isn't a "doctrine." It's the lack of belief in any worlds other than the material one.
I've never met a single person who believes, as a matter of doctrine or dogma, that the material world is all there is. I've met scores and scores of people who are unconvinced that any other worlds exist and who therefore currently lack a belief in any worlds besides the material.
I'm afraid that trying to define materialism as a "doctrine" or a "belief" is nothing more than a clumsy attempt to make all positions whatsoever look like religions and, by implication, to suggest that "ahh, everybody's got equally unjustified beliefs in something, so it's all a wash...."
You could see why someone would try that, but it's not going to work on people who are at least partway paying attention."
Anyone with any sort of philosophical education recognizes this as circular nonsense with which materialists self-justify their belief system.
A "lack of belief" based on some principle logically demands* belief *in that principle. Investigation of that principle reveals the dogma.
Anything else is just double-talking nonsense.
I mean... my freakin' god! You're actually trying to act like materialists don't have questionable presuppositions. Everyone has axiomatic presuppositions! Everyone! And absolutely all - ALL - epistemologies begin with some element of belief!
It makes me crazy how absolutely, condescendingly, and authoritatively you present a dead freaking worldview as if it has any current relevance. It's nonsensically atavistic! I can't believe you take yourself seriously.
I mean, join the freaking modern (actually post-modern) era!
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@Legis said
"I mean... my freakin' god! You're actually trying to act like materialist don't have questionable presuppositions."
I didn't say that. I said that materialists don't have a belief that the material world is all there is. They lack certain kinds of beliefs.
What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold, and what makes you think that it is questionable? Depending on exactly what you mean, I might even agree with you.
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@Legis said
"A "lack of belief" based on some principle logically demands belief in that principle."
Exactly.
In this context, excruciatingly humorous when a major aspect of magick is "suspension of disbelief." In other words, being able to "believe" X at will.
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@Los said
"What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold, and what makes you think that it is questionable? Depending on exactly what you mean, I might even agree with you."
Demonstrate self-awareness and state your presuppositions yourself.
@Los said
"I didn't say that. "
Because I'm not playing this game with you again.
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Well, going back to the original topic, as discussed earlier:
Ra-Hoor-Khuit - the "active principle".
Hoor-Paar-Kraat - the "passive principle".In my experience, these "principles" can be displayed as atavistic behavior when they become imbalanced (lacking adjustment). Does anybody agree with this? Does anybody want to discuss, from their own experience, what these behaviors may look like when there is an "active principle" imbalance?
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FWIW, I've tended, in recent years, to move away from "passive" as the description, and adopt "still."
IMHO the Twins are referenced in the phrase, "stir me or still me". They are movement (or stirring) and stillness. (And yes, of course, these both have atavistic expressions just as they can have inspired - and inspiring - expressions.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(And yes, of course, these both have atavistic expressions just as they can have inspired - and inspiring - expressions.)"
Thanks for the laugh, Jim. You knew exactly what I was trying to say.
I agree completely.
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I kinda missed Los
@Los said
"I said that materialists don't have a belief that the material world is all there is. They lack certain kinds of beliefs. "
Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?
Surely materialists also believe that 'minds' are brains and minds are nothing more than brain activity, no?
Surely materialists believe that only humans, and perhaps some animals, have consciousness, and things like planets, stars, rocks, oceans have no consciousness, correct?
It's not beliefs that is holding this subject of materialists up, it's quite confusing it.
Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else.
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@Los said
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@Legis said
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@Los said
"What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold[?]"Demonstrate self-awareness and state your presuppositions yourself."
See? Even you don't know what you meant."
How familiar is this game though...?
"You think [this]"
"I didn't say that."
"It's inherent to your thinking."
"That's the Los in your head."I know you know how to defend yourself in debate, and I have no interest in playing "talking points" and going through those same moves with you again.
The question is - are* you* actually aware enough of your own presuppositions to* attempt *to consider them objectively and own them as *choices *instead of certainties?
I doubt that you are, otherwise you'd be a little more tolerant of other choices.
Well, either you aren't aware of your presuppositions, or you're hedging on them in order to maintain your debate position. Either way, I got no respect for it.
Anyway..., between the hypocritical Peanut Gallery (whom I've watched behave in this exact same manner on this day or that) and the falsely sincere Inquisitor (who likes to act all open for discussion while keeping his friends notified about all the supposed crazy talk), I'm just not feeling it anymore.
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@Legis said
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Anyway..., between the hypocritical Peanut Gallery (whom I've watched behave in this exact same manner on this day or that) and the falsely sincere Inquisitor (who likes to act all open for discussion while keeping his friends notified about all the supposed crazy talk), I'm just not feeling it anymore."Perfectly stated. Neither you nor I require them to have understood it. It stands to reason and that is enough.
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FWIW - I enjoy the posts from Los, Legis, and Takamba. Thanks guys.
I think most of them are pretty lively and entertaining. I do agree that some of them spin around in circles and it gets tired at times...
But, for the most part, many of the comments from the discussions are pretty thought-provoking, even though everyone may disagree here and there. And I think, generally, it is useful to see many POVs - there is a lot of learning going around here for me and many other people that browse...even if it's just from a social interaction perspective...
Man, that's why I like Thelema. The diversity is fun.
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@ldfriend56 said
"Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?"
I can't speak for all materialists, but I don't necessarily believe that that's the case. Perhaps there are things that humans will never be able to explain. I really don't have enough information to say.
At any rate, we were talking about what materialism is, not specific things that (many) materialists (might) believe, which is what your list of questions was trying to suggest. For example, I'm sure most materialists believe that the earth travels around the sun, but that belief isn't defining of what materialism is.
The thing that constitutes materialism is lacking belief in other worlds, on the basis of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of any other worlds. It's not a belief, not a dogma, not a doctrine, and certainly not a "religion." It's not on equal footing with supernatural beliefs.
"Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else."
Name one, then.
I believe the material world exists, of course, because I have tons of evidence to support that. Anything extra -- claims that there are other worlds -- needs to be supported with sufficient evidence, and without it, people are more than justified in not accepting those claims.
It's that lack of belief -- that not accepting the claims about other worlds -- that constitutes materialism.
