Heru-Ra-Ha, Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Hoor-Paar-Kraat, and Horus
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@kasper81 said
"by the way, to me, it's got nothing to do with materialism if someone wants to take out the strange Egyptological mythological names out of the functionality of transcendental awareness i.e. awareness"
I have no problem with that at all. There are plenty of varieties of language to use for this sort of thing. Nor have I a problem with someone who, for sake of letting people get a handle on something, chooses to express a complex and far-reaching idea in simple (albeit diluted) language.
I have a problem with someone taking something immeasurably greater than anything that could conceivably be called human, or human-accessible, and treating it (seriously) as if those things are only human psychological matters.
"some people seem to want religion. They rejected their school teachers' religious spoonfeeding and presumably,their parents religion, but they still want to find it, and in Thelema"
Exactly. To reject a particular religion (or delivery system of religion) need not be to reject religion per se. Ultimately, that's the whole of what we're about - first and last - bringing people to a deepening spiritual experience of their lives, an increasingly conscious awareness and embracing of their full, immortal scope of which their present human expression is no more than a currently profitable metaphor.
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@kasper81 said
"Materialism: The doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."
Materialism isn't a "doctrine." It's the lack of belief in any worlds other than the material one.
I've never met a single person who believes, as a matter of doctrine or dogma, that the material world is all there is. I've met scores and scores of people who are unconvinced that any other worlds exist and who therefore currently lack a belief in any worlds besides the material.
I'm afraid that trying to define materialism as a "doctrine" or a "belief" is nothing more than a clumsy attempt to make all positions whatsoever look like religions and, by implication, to suggest that "ahh, everybody's got equally unjustified beliefs in something, so it's all a wash...."
You could see why someone would try that, but it's not going to work on people who are at least partway paying attention.
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@Los said
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@kasper81 said
"Materialism: The doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications."Materialism isn't a "doctrine." It's the lack of belief in any worlds other than the material one.
I've never met a single person who believes, as a matter of doctrine or dogma, that the material world is all there is. I've met scores and scores of people who are unconvinced that any other worlds exist and who therefore currently lack a belief in any worlds besides the material.
I'm afraid that trying to define materialism as a "doctrine" or a "belief" is nothing more than a clumsy attempt to make all positions whatsoever look like religions and, by implication, to suggest that "ahh, everybody's got equally unjustified beliefs in something, so it's all a wash...."
You could see why someone would try that, but it's not going to work on people who are at least partway paying attention."
Anyone with any sort of philosophical education recognizes this as circular nonsense with which materialists self-justify their belief system.
A "lack of belief" based on some principle logically demands* belief *in that principle. Investigation of that principle reveals the dogma.
Anything else is just double-talking nonsense.
I mean... my freakin' god! You're actually trying to act like materialists don't have questionable presuppositions. Everyone has axiomatic presuppositions! Everyone! And absolutely all - ALL - epistemologies begin with some element of belief!
It makes me crazy how absolutely, condescendingly, and authoritatively you present a dead freaking worldview as if it has any current relevance. It's nonsensically atavistic! I can't believe you take yourself seriously.
I mean, join the freaking modern (actually post-modern) era!
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@Legis said
"I mean... my freakin' god! You're actually trying to act like materialist don't have questionable presuppositions."
I didn't say that. I said that materialists don't have a belief that the material world is all there is. They lack certain kinds of beliefs.
What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold, and what makes you think that it is questionable? Depending on exactly what you mean, I might even agree with you.
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@Legis said
"A "lack of belief" based on some principle logically demands belief in that principle."
Exactly.
In this context, excruciatingly humorous when a major aspect of magick is "suspension of disbelief." In other words, being able to "believe" X at will.
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@Los said
"What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold, and what makes you think that it is questionable? Depending on exactly what you mean, I might even agree with you."
Demonstrate self-awareness and state your presuppositions yourself.
@Los said
"I didn't say that. "
Because I'm not playing this game with you again.
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Well, going back to the original topic, as discussed earlier:
Ra-Hoor-Khuit - the "active principle".
Hoor-Paar-Kraat - the "passive principle".In my experience, these "principles" can be displayed as atavistic behavior when they become imbalanced (lacking adjustment). Does anybody agree with this? Does anybody want to discuss, from their own experience, what these behaviors may look like when there is an "active principle" imbalance?
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FWIW, I've tended, in recent years, to move away from "passive" as the description, and adopt "still."
IMHO the Twins are referenced in the phrase, "stir me or still me". They are movement (or stirring) and stillness. (And yes, of course, these both have atavistic expressions just as they can have inspired - and inspiring - expressions.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(And yes, of course, these both have atavistic expressions just as they can have inspired - and inspiring - expressions.)"
Thanks for the laugh, Jim. You knew exactly what I was trying to say.
I agree completely.
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I kinda missed Los
@Los said
"I said that materialists don't have a belief that the material world is all there is. They lack certain kinds of beliefs. "
Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?
Surely materialists also believe that 'minds' are brains and minds are nothing more than brain activity, no?
Surely materialists believe that only humans, and perhaps some animals, have consciousness, and things like planets, stars, rocks, oceans have no consciousness, correct?
It's not beliefs that is holding this subject of materialists up, it's quite confusing it.
Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else.
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@Los said
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@Legis said
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@Los said
"What "questionable presupposition" do you think that I hold[?]"Demonstrate self-awareness and state your presuppositions yourself."
See? Even you don't know what you meant."
How familiar is this game though...?
"You think [this]"
"I didn't say that."
"It's inherent to your thinking."
"That's the Los in your head."I know you know how to defend yourself in debate, and I have no interest in playing "talking points" and going through those same moves with you again.
The question is - are* you* actually aware enough of your own presuppositions to* attempt *to consider them objectively and own them as *choices *instead of certainties?
I doubt that you are, otherwise you'd be a little more tolerant of other choices.
Well, either you aren't aware of your presuppositions, or you're hedging on them in order to maintain your debate position. Either way, I got no respect for it.
Anyway..., between the hypocritical Peanut Gallery (whom I've watched behave in this exact same manner on this day or that) and the falsely sincere Inquisitor (who likes to act all open for discussion while keeping his friends notified about all the supposed crazy talk), I'm just not feeling it anymore.
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@Legis said
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Anyway..., between the hypocritical Peanut Gallery (whom I've watched behave in this exact same manner on this day or that) and the falsely sincere Inquisitor (who likes to act all open for discussion while keeping his friends notified about all the supposed crazy talk), I'm just not feeling it anymore."Perfectly stated. Neither you nor I require them to have understood it. It stands to reason and that is enough.
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FWIW - I enjoy the posts from Los, Legis, and Takamba. Thanks guys.
I think most of them are pretty lively and entertaining. I do agree that some of them spin around in circles and it gets tired at times...
But, for the most part, many of the comments from the discussions are pretty thought-provoking, even though everyone may disagree here and there. And I think, generally, it is useful to see many POVs - there is a lot of learning going around here for me and many other people that browse...even if it's just from a social interaction perspective...
Man, that's why I like Thelema. The diversity is fun.
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@ldfriend56 said
"Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?"
I can't speak for all materialists, but I don't necessarily believe that that's the case. Perhaps there are things that humans will never be able to explain. I really don't have enough information to say.
At any rate, we were talking about what materialism is, not specific things that (many) materialists (might) believe, which is what your list of questions was trying to suggest. For example, I'm sure most materialists believe that the earth travels around the sun, but that belief isn't defining of what materialism is.
The thing that constitutes materialism is lacking belief in other worlds, on the basis of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of any other worlds. It's not a belief, not a dogma, not a doctrine, and certainly not a "religion." It's not on equal footing with supernatural beliefs.
"Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else."
Name one, then.
I believe the material world exists, of course, because I have tons of evidence to support that. Anything extra -- claims that there are other worlds -- needs to be supported with sufficient evidence, and without it, people are more than justified in not accepting those claims.
It's that lack of belief -- that not accepting the claims about other worlds -- that constitutes materialism.
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Hey Los - thanks for engaging with me. I enjoy the sport of these sorts of discussions and learn from them.
Surely materialists believe that all phenomenon in the universe is explainable by physics and chemistry, no?
"I can't speak for all materialists, but I don't necessarily believe that that's the case. Perhaps there are things that humans will never be able to explain. "
hmmm, not sure how intellectually honest this response here is of yours, considering our last conversations and especially in a post or two above, you actually do speak for all materialists and suggest that they lack belief.
If you do not believe that physics and chemistry can explain all phenomena in the universe, you may have a very irregular definition of materialism because materialism by it's very nature is measurable. What things to you suppose that humans may never be able to explain? Spirits for example? Disincarnate intelligences? Consciousness?
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At any rate, we were talking about what materialism is, not specific things that (many) materialists (might) believe, which is what your list of questions was trying to suggest. For example, I'm sure most materialists believe that the earth travels around the sun, but that belief isn't defining of what materialism is."Materialism is the belief that all phenomenon is explainable in material measurements put forth by physics and chemistry. It is the opposite of dualism, which postulates that there is a realm of matter, governed by the laws of nature, and a realm of spirit, governed by unseen forces. Materialism is the belief that everything is physical and Materialism is a philosophical monism.
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The thing that constitutes materialism is lacking belief in other worlds, on the basis of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of any other worlds. It's not a belief, not a dogma, not a doctrine, and certainly not a "religion.""It's a philosophy, with it's own context of things which it believes to be true just like any other belief system. What sets materialism apart is the authority of science which depends upon physics and chemistry to measure physical reality and postulate what is real.
I do think you are again not being intellectually honest when you say Materialism is a lack of belief in other worlds. I assume you mean other 'realms' of existence that are beyond the material existence. Atheists, the militant kind, are often quite guilty of making this claim, saying that they have no belief in God because there is no evidence of God, and therefore only believe what their senses and measurements tell them. It's only the Theists that believe in things, not them!
You can see how the belief that all phenomena in nature and the universe must be measurable in terms of physics or chemistry is a core component of your, and theirs, belief system here, so much so you are completely unconscious of the effect of this belief system has on your own arguments. It's implicit in your very words.
"It's not on equal footing with supernatural beliefs."
Interesting metaphor, and of course a false idea. Any philosophy, world view or even just community or self view is a context of ideas that an adherent believes and accepts as true - hence, also by definition also a belief system. Of course you believe what you know to be true.
Materialists have assumptions about the material world that they dare not assume for anything else.
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Name one, then."How about the one I started with? that all phenomena in nature and the universe must be measurable in terms of physics or chemistry and all that we can say is real is that which is measurable in those terms.
Please don't try and irrationalize that you don't believe that, because you most certainly do believe that at a very deep level of your own psychology.
See - you shout it from the rooftops even more here. (lol on equal footing no doubt with religious evangelists )
"I believe the material world exists, of course, because I have tons of evidence to support that. Anything extra -- claims that there are other worlds -- needs to be supported with sufficient evidence, and without it, people are more than justified in not accepting those claims."
Please, let's not get irrational even further. Love your materialism Los do not shun it
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It's that lack of belief -- that not accepting the claims about other worlds -- that constitutes materialism."
Consider the non logic of this phrase -Your saying that what 'makes' materialism is what materialism contains, and what it contains is something that it does not have.
Clearly you see how that definition makes absolutely no sense whatsoever of materialism, yes?
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I realize that ideas like that ones I’m sharing are not always easy to grasp immediately – especially if you’ve spent years and years and years thinking that materialism and atheism are “beliefs” or positive positions – so I’ll try to be a little patient in explaining them.
The thing that qualifies a person for being a materialist – the one thing that all materialists share – is lacking a belief in any worlds besides the physical one.
In the same way, the one thing that qualifies a person for being an atheist – the one thing that all atheists share – is lacking a belief in any deities.
After that, all bets are off. An atheist or materialist can believe all sorts of things, whether for good reasons or bad ones.
Some materialists, for example, go a step further and believe (actively) that there are no worlds besides the physical one, just as some atheists go a step further and believe (actively) that there are no gods. But those beliefs are extra. The thing that makes those people materialists is their lack of belief.
So, as you can see, it’s not at all an assumption of materialism that “all things can be explained by physics and chemistry.” I’m sure there are materialists who might accept that claim, but that’s just some extra claim, over and on top of their lack of belief in any worlds besides the physical one.
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@Los said
"I realize that ideas like that ones I’m sharing are not always easy to grasp immediately – especially if you’ve spent years and years and years thinking that materialism and atheism are “beliefs” or positive positions – so I’ll try to be a little patient in explaining them."
Lol, well repeating what you wrote twice already is not really explaining anything new here and it may be a symptom of obsession rather than patience
If you want to have your own personal Idaho of Materialism that's fine, it's just not compatible with how Materialism is defined in the philosophy of science.
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@Los said
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The thing that constitutes materialism is lacking belief in other worlds, on the basis of there being insufficient evidence for the existence of any other worlds. It's not a belief, not a dogma, not a doctrine, and certainly not a "religion." It's not on equal footing with supernatural beliefs.
"Then that's your particular definition, special to you. You can go about conveniently changing the meanings of words to suit your desires (this is not the first time I've watched you do it), but it doesn't change the reality that the philosophical definition of "Materialism" was exactly quoted to you and it is what everyone else calls.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f51/Baccus93/Materialism.jpg
