Ordeals and HGA
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@Tornado93 said
"I can accept that some bad things happen for a reason, that it happened so that people would change and grow. Yet some things that happen there just isn't anything acceptable about it. Severe child abuse, torture, genocide, among other horrible events.
One of the reasons I am suspicious of applying the law of karma to everything. What did the Native Americans do to have such bad karma they get wiped out by white settlers? Did the Jews have bad karma to be put in concentration camps? Did innocent people deserve to be burned as witches? Were all their HGAs trying to teach them something? Sorry, I don't buy that."
You brought up some interesting points there that I think some people tend to refer to as "racial karma," which I think is an entirely different beast than individual karma. As far as specific answers, I would have few insights to potentially offer you but some Biblical Historians currently are spreading the word that King David invented genocide when YHVH commanded the death of neighboring nations. Sorry I don't have the specifics, but it is written - so it just may be so.
The indigenous tribes of the the American continent? Maybe their is something to your point of view that they were innocent (I highly doubt it though, as innocence is truly a lost art that any teenager would have to confess to). The theosophical point of view about past life karma is that in fact it is used to explain the very questions you pose. We don't know these things, we don't know the path the red man took when man migrated out of Asia to the Americas, and how many deaths lay along the journey. That which some call "God" supposedly does know, and karma (being an impersonal law of cause and effect, speaking neither ill nor good but being fairly just in its own light) is I guess a "god effect" so to speak - so let's say for the sake of argument that those who believe in past lives and karmic debts relative to that also believe that karma "knows" things we may never comprehend.
Anyway - that's just my take on the subject. I still leave it for you to measure and decide.
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When I am tempted to think in terms of good or bad I am reminded that it is my perception that makes it so.
Things are things, actions are action they are not inherintly good or bad (even though we may say that our intention makes it so, but our intentions are based upon our perceptions....and we can not always trust our perceptions as being true reality).
As some one who has worked closely with Indeginious teachings, I can gander a guess that what "happened" to them may possibly have been a seed event so that the dance of humanity could continue. By that I will clarify that the spirituality that used to be european shamanism had been assimilated into the the dying god mythos, and salvationist thought. The original pilgrims wanted freedom and liberty, and I think that possibly the act of cultural appropiation is an act of the great melting pot, or of creating an eclectic blending of the best of the best, so to speak.
In other words, those action we deem "bad" may have been the only way to get the needed medicine. I tell my kids as they grimace at my remedies, that medicine is not supposed to taste good.
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@Takamba said
" You brought up some interesting points there that I think some people tend to refer to as "racial karma," which I think is an entirely different beast than individual karma. "
Each of those individual Native Americans, Jews, and accused witches (and plenty other examples) experienced their own pain and deaths individually, even though they were also part of a race or group.
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@Veronica said
"
In other words, those action we deem "bad" may have been the only way to get the needed medicine. I tell my kids as they grimace at my remedies, that medicine is not supposed to taste good."That reminds me of a "Banana Flavored" antibiotic my parents made me take when I had strep as a kid. I had "Banana Flavored" puke all over the kitchen and was afraid to eat bananas for several years.
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@Veronica said
"When I am tempted to think in terms of good or bad I am reminded that it is my perception that makes it so.
Things are things, actions are action they are not inherintly good or bad (even though we may say that our intention makes it so, but our intentions are based upon our perceptions....and we can not always trust our perceptions as being true reality).
As some one who has worked closely with Indeginious teachings, I can gander a guess that what "happened" to them may possibly have been a seed event so that the dance of humanity could continue. By that I will clarify that the spirituality that used to be european shamanism had been assimilated into the the dying god mythos, and salvationist thought. The original pilgrims wanted freedom and liberty, and I think that possibly the act of cultural appropiation is an act of the great melting pot, or of creating an eclectic blending of the best of the best, so to speak.
In other words, those action we deem "bad" may have been the only way to get the needed medicine. I tell my kids as they grimace at my remedies, that medicine is not supposed to taste good."
There are numerous cases of very young children who have been severely abused by their parents - Mother, father or both. Children who have been burned, tortured, and beaten to the point of permanent damage or even killed. Was their HGA giving them an ordeal? Were they born with bad karma? My perception is what makes it wrong????
Native Americans had to be wiped out so that "the dance of humanity could continue"????
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But, even if karma/reincarnation is at play in a situation like child abuse, it doesn't mean that it is not a great wrong, and that there is not a wrongdoer to be punished. It just means that the victim doesn't always have to be a victim.
The key seems to be approaching it from the end of treating the victims as gods, rather then using it as a mental tool to assuage the guilt over the crime.
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@Tornado93 said
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Native Americans had to be wiped out so that "the dance of humanity could continue"????"Maybe. Remember, I've only commented on points of inquiry. I have no answer because this existence of a Soul / Atman or any other name is not demonstrable - nor is the opposite of its existence actually proven. All contact with it is purely personal and I feel mostly poetic in color. And since your belief in karma and soul are so interconnected in the way they are, I merely suggest some options to research to learn more about what people or peoples have concluded about these subjects in ways that you may not be familiar with.
In reference to the above question of your - maybe. That's the answer i suggest. Maybe humanity (like Buffalo) has an existence all unique ITS own - Humanity, like Buffalo and Coyote, are Gods! Humanity's Will may be to wipe all out racial separation and some ordeals are required for Wisdom to stick to flesh. Maybe all those Texans and Cowboys didn't know exactly why they were sacrificing, but to The End, they maybe were actually Sacrificing.
I dunno. I wasn't exactly there.
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As I understand it, germs were responsible for wiping out the Native American Indians. Their immunity systems had not built up the necessary resistance. European settlers exploited this fact by giving them blankets deliberately infected with smallpox.
I don’t think it’s too productive to question the “whys” of the HGA but I would rather learn the “hows” for dealing with ordeals. I subscribe to the Buddhist view that suffering arises from ignorance and therefore part of "adeptship" must entail skillfulness - learning how to deal with ordeals that arise.
For example, one thing I’ve pondered is whether, if I am attracting an unusual amount of bad luck and misfortune, the universe is telling me my task to absorb the poisons of others and transmute it into beneficial energy as in the practice of tonglen:
Or whether gratitude and compassion are useful attitudes. Or what it means to see, name and pledge a thing to the Will of the HGA - I presume that means something more than the ritual laid out in Abramelin.
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Thank you, I appreciate this.
@he atlas itch said
"
I don’t think it’s too productive to question the “whys” of the HGA but I would rather learn the “hows” for dealing with ordeals. I subscribe to the Buddhist view that suffering arises from ignorance and therefore part of "adeptship" must entail skillfulness - learning how to deal with ordeals that arise.For example, one thing I’ve pondered is whether, if I am attracting an unusual amount of bad luck and misfortune, the universe is telling me my task to absorb the poisons of others and transmute it into beneficial energy as in the practice of tonglen:
Or whether gratitude and compassion are useful attitudes. Or what it means to see, name and pledge a thing to the Will of the HGA - I presume that means something more than the ritual laid out in Abramelin."
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"What did the Native Americans do to have such bad karma they get wiped out by white settlers? Did the Jews have bad karma to be put in concentration camps? Did innocent people deserve to be burned as witches? Were all their HGAs trying to teach them something? Sorry, I don't buy that."
With the Native American's, their is a good old propheci, called the "Hopi" prophecies. It clearly states that the Natives knew what was coming before hand. On a second note, the myth of the "Star child" that offered to teach magick and wisdom the the Natives, and those who refused would have war, yadayada ect... But I dont think any actually took up the offer, hence white people moved in.
The Jews, there are a few mytho accounts of them "dissobaying" god. Which I "personally" beleive had something to do with their cultural bad luck. I mean the Jews were gifted, from the beginning, and the turning over to dogmatic Monotheism was just the start of "Cultural Bad Decisions". I think the race has been enslaved like 3 times or so. But in both cases I think I'm inclined to think of a Cultural karma, so to speak, that drags with certain groups of people, expecially if the "herd-mind" still exists in that particular culture, which would probly be the vehicle of such karma.The witches, bright thinkers and tinkers. I think they should have wiped out the christians before the got there, but that wasnt the case, what that did do is it gave alot of Celtic influence. Ya sure the christians wanted to silence who spake, but where did the old european influences for the old days come from? Catholisism adopted alot of pagan ideas to assimilate, but also what they didnt know is that it left a link, connection back to the ancient religions. So that ordeal gave rise to the Celtic Shivlery influence where we got all the beautifull midevial mythos, and the works of the renasance. Although I have read somewhere that christianity in terms of science set the world back by 2000 years.
But just as "we" have "personal" Karma, I think their is a probly a "group mind" karma, or racial/cultural whatever. A forest has to be burnt so new life and grow and flourish, so it wont turn into some dark dank dead looking forest.
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@he atlas itch said
"As I understand it, germs were responsible for wiping out the Native American Indians. Their immunity systems had not built up the necessary resistance. European settlers exploited this fact by giving them blankets deliberately infected with smallpox."
Don't believe it. This is all Leftist propaganda at best. Actually it is a giant pack of lies.
There was no 'genocide' against the Native Americans. No reasonable evidence of this can be backed up by real history. On the other hand we do have actual historical evidence to show that Native American tribes were in a constant state of war with each other. They were 'warrior' societies after all.
When the white man came and many tribes were decimated by smallpox it was not the white man that came along and 'exterminated' the weakened tribe... it was the tribe's traditional tribal enemies that swooped in and finished them off. Some grizzled old officer's comment of "the only good injun is a dead injun" is the only so called "evidence" presented as justification of this genocide theory.
The story of the contaminated blankets is total hogwash. They were gifts of clean blankets made to the chief of a neighboring tribe as genuine peace offerings. The comment that they were taken from the Fort hospital was construed as a conscious attempt at germ warfare. But the absurdity of this is lost on the self-loathing Leftists who push this tripe. At that point in history Pasteur was barely presenting his germ theory of disease in Paris and most doctors in Europe and certainly America were clueless about it. Doubtless, the soldiers on the frontier had no idea of such a possibility.
All across America today there are MILLIONS of Native Americans living on their own land speaking their Native language and following their traditional customs (minus the constant warfare). DOZENS of tribes. In fact it is estimated that their population numbers today are roughly equivalent to what they were when Columbus landed here in 1492.
P.S. I think the ordeals of the HGA are not planned by the HGA but one's destined trials and ordeals from the moment of birth are arranged by the HGA (when given sufficient attention) in the psyche to actually provide eternal gain in the form of Higher Consciousness and Spiritual Growth. Life sucks and then you die. But for the True Initiate there is at least the possibility of Purpose.
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Yes, I would call that Understanding, qabalistically speaking, though I open myself to correction.
To my mind, the next step would be the life one chooses to live after attaining full Understanding, referred to as Wisdom.
And then...? Perhaps Nirvanic bliss until something, some Function, some Season, some Call finds a source of gravity in us and compels us back down, ...if it can indeed be said to have the power to do so...?
That's as close a picture of it as my mind has been able to create so far. But I have no evidence for it at all. It's just a mental construct that helps me imagine the possibility. Your own mileage may vary...
Upon second look, it appears I've combined a response to two threads into this one, tagging on my thoughts about reincarnation. Eh... my feelings won't be hurt if you ignore it, and I do think it still applies... lol...
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Hello all, i am new here and will post a proper intro later but wanted to reply to this thread.
I think the ordeals run smooth if you listen to the hga and do what you know/feel inside to be the right thing.
It is when you go against what you KNOW is right that the ordeals seem to reach a point of severity as the lower will fights for survival.
Sapere Aude
Love is the law.
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@Labyrinthus said
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@he atlas itch said
"As I understand it, germs were responsible for wiping out the Native American Indians. Their immunity systems had not built up the necessary resistance. European settlers exploited this fact by giving them blankets deliberately infected with smallpox."Don't believe it. This is all Leftist propaganda at best. Actually it is a giant pack of lies.
There was no 'genocide' against the Native Americans. No reasonable evidence of this can be backed up by real history. On the other hand we do have actual historical evidence to show that Native American tribes were in a constant state of war with each other. They were 'warrior' societies after all.
When the white man came and many tribes were decimated by smallpox it was not the white man that came along and 'exterminated' the weakened tribe... it was the tribe's traditional tribal enemies that swooped in and finished them off. Some grizzled old officer's comment of "the only good injun is a dead injun" is the only so called "evidence" presented as justification of this genocide theory.
The story of the contaminated blankets is total hogwash. They were gifts of clean blankets made to the chief of a neighboring tribe as genuine peace offerings. The comment that they were taken from the Fort hospital was construed as a conscious attempt at germ warfare. But the absurdity of this is lost on the self-loathing Leftists who push this tripe. At that point in history Pasteur was barely presenting his germ theory of disease in Paris and most doctors in Europe and certainly America were clueless about it. Doubtless, the soldiers on the frontier had no idea of such a possibility.
All across America today there are MILLIONS of Native Americans living on their own land speaking their Native language and following their traditional customs (minus the constant warfare). DOZENS of tribes. In fact it is estimated that their population numbers today are roughly equivalent to what they were when Columbus landed here in 1492."
Wow. There are so many things wrong with this I'm just gonna start hacking it up now. But first, I usually leave this out and let people talk amongst themselves about a culture and heritage they know little about, but this is important so you know I'm not blowing smoke out my third eye-- I am a member of two tribes. I am an (BIA) enrolled member of the the Shoshone Paiute/Miwok tribe. Our tribe was terminated in 1983. We still have council and are tribally active, more so, my father is the chairman of our band. My allotment was taken then and given to the BLM. We are not a warrior society (never were) and clumping all tribes when there are over 500 nations is ridonkulous. We are a sweat lodge society and not to be confused with the Lakota clear on the other side of the continent. My other tribe is Kwakuitl of the Pacific Northwest. We are also not a warring tribe in the least (nor were our neighbors) and our society is based on the potlatch and Hamatsa, a magical society. I hate that people are so ignorant and I'm just gonna point it out. It's not magical in the least to have so little knowledge and speak of it as if you do.
Now then, both of my tribes have been decimated by disease, small pox blankets (www.missionscalifornia.com/ate/effect-small-pox-have-indians-mission-any.html). My tribe was terminated because of the severe reduction brought on in the 1850's of these diseases (not just small pox, but alcohol and white food, ie: flour and sugar). I am one of the remaining of 500 people in our tribe. You might think that it doesn't count, but thank god you're not in charge! I can list several ways genocide is still being conducted directly to me and mine. I'm not making this up nor do I have anything to gain by it. I like this thread and think it's important to pound things out, but lets be honest about it. Belief has little to do with magick. If you're skeptical, then let me correct you. The genocide amongst native peoples has well exceeded the holocaust and is a known and concerning issue amongst academics and humanitarians everywhere. The genocide "theory" is not a theory, but fact, it's still happening today. I ask where you get your propaganda from? Seriously, I'm in my thesis.
There are millions of Indians? Where? And who says there are "as many as when Columbus landed"? Columbus never landed here.
On that note, there is a lot to be gained by understanding indigenous wisdom. There are also indigenous magical societies that have nothing to do with mainstream religion and are in close alignment with the 93 current.
I know the Hopi prophecy and star nations are the cradle of mainstream understanding of native culture. The Hopi are only one tribe of hundreds. They are a Kiva society and I am positive what is known about their prophecies is so slight since it's a hidden magic.
I won't go into the level of racism you produced here, but it is really out dated.
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Hell0,
Im new here as well and am also undergoing a most trying purgative ordeal-have been for sometime.
It certainly isn't pleasant yet i know, instinctively, that the trials are for my benefit but not only mine but also the collective. HOWEVER, the unpleasantness needs to be reiterated. There are times its persistent causticity threaten to turn me into a stark, raving, homicidal maniac! Then i take a deep breathe and capitulate. sighits for our own good, really ....
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@Stag-Nation said
"Hell0,
Im new here as well and am also undergoing a most trying purgative ordeal-have been for sometime.
It certainly isn't pleasant yet i know, instinctively, that the trials are for my benefit but not only mine but also the collective. HOWEVER, the unpleasantness needs to be reiterated. There are times its persistent causticity threaten to turn me into a stark, raving, homicidal maniac! Then i take a deep breathe and capitulate. sighits for our own good, really ....
"Jim may have something to add as a former member of BOTA and also advanced through the A.'.A.'. (I'm guessing a negation of what I say here...), but in my opinion homicidal urges and the HGA don't seem to go together. Paul Foster Case of BOTA has stated that the Voice will never flatter you (ie. you are "chosen" and your killing spree would be "for the good of the collective"). Such thoughts are megalomaniacal and rooted in the little ego. I'm not saying you have such thoughts, but just for an example based on what you've said.
Of course you know Crowley's HGA said he was the prophet of the New Aeon and filled his head full of such violent imagery that he rejected it and left it in a drawer for a few years.
The view from Tiphareth is very much about other and surrender is probably the best thing. When you do surrender, do you feel peace or hopelessness? If you feel hopeless, what is it that feels unfulfilled? It is perhaps little ego winding you up in cycles and causing you to bash your head against the wall until you finally understand what the real problem is. In most traditions I've studied, it is basically suggested to view the world as a teacher and to treat resistance and enemies as friends showing you the chinks in your own armor.
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Greetings,
You are probably right with regard to the homicidal urges. To be more explicit, it feels, upon occasion, as if a black glove slides over my consciousness. That is to say, i still retain my conscience, however this other, vile, black consciousness is present. The closest thing i could compare it to would be the black spidey suit that attaches itself to peter parker... It's been suggested that this is a sort of doppleganger or even a tether of some sort to the klipothic realms. Whatever it is, its old.
Whether this be the root cause of my suffering i cant be sure, i do know that it manifests all manor of unsavory and negative feelings and is also capable of producing a continual euphoric sensation something ecstatic if thought of in certain way.
I have likened it to a thorn in my side to which their is no cure. A constant companion ever ready to help me capitulate in the worst way possible... -
it might help you a bit to meditate on the Book of Job and the whole Lord of the Darkness and the Light prayer you referred to before. This may because I am still shaking the vestiges off of my former Christian past, but I do feel that God/HGA will test you. Remember that Satan was once merely an accuser, under the jurisdiction of God to test people's faith, and presumably make them as gold.
"YHWH gave and YHWH has taken away; blessed be the name of YHWH"
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Frankly.. the entire experience is dismal. Whichever language, symbolism or tradition is used to describe it - i feel as though i've been an unwitting and unwilling participant in some, for lack of a better descriptor, recurrent cosmic drama... My sensibilities have been ruined by the intrusion, by the imposition of some seeming higher form of pseudo-intelligence.
Being constantly assaulted by individuals' thoughts and puerile expectations; understandings. Not to mention being made subject to an entire host of conflicting desires in a world entirely illusion seems to me, to be the height of stupidity. WHY in the Chaotic Void would anyone willingly sign up for this sort of ridiculous psycho/spiritual shenanigan is truly beyond me. I am wholly unworthy of such a grandiose theatric role...as this is certainly what it feels like. And, perhaps this is the point, or rather the conclusion one is supposed to arrive at?!
Thanks for the allowing the rant.
Jr.
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See, i can't even have an original thought/rant
