Function of Gratitude in Magick
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"In other words, if you're trying to live up to some ideal of "love," then you're by definition not acting in accordance with your True Will."
I understand the phantom you are attempting to debate, but it is not me.
I have sought to explain one Lover's advice for Loving the Beloved that I believe was misinterpreted. I have not suggested that anyone follow any particular standard.
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@Legis said
"I have not suggested that anyone follow any particular standard."
You've suggested that you yourself follow the standard of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
From a Thelemic perspective, the problem with standards is not that someone is going to impose them onto somebody else. The problem is that standards mislead the person who privately holds these standards by leading him astray from his True Will. A person who follows a standard -- even his own personal standard that he's dreamed up -- is following a creation of the mind instead of attending to his inclinations in the moment.
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Your "conception" of Thelema is just a mental construct, like every one else's.
Oh, the irony.
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@Los said
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@Legis said
"I have not suggested that anyone follow any particular standard."You've suggested that you yourself follow the standard of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Perhaps. But what is that to you? - unless you are attempting to convert me not only to follow your own standard, but also to think of your standard as you would have me think of it, and to speak of your standard as you would have me speak of it?
@Los said
"From a Thelemic perspective, the problem with standards is not that someone is going to impose them onto somebody else. The problem is that standards mislead the person who privately holds these standards by leading him astray from his True Will. A person who follows a standard -- even his own personal standard that he's dreamed up -- is following a creation of the mind instead of attending to his inclinations in the moment."
I reject your standard. I reject that your standard is the essence of Thelema. I reject your interpretation of True Will. I reject your selective use of quotes for Crowley used to intellectually impose your standard of True Will on others.
My true will has specifically to do with dreams, and symbols, and magic, and everything you call vain and useless to the Will.
By my Sun in Libra and Moon in Pisces I reject your attempts at enslaving my mind by your words.
Am I not free to do so even by your own standard? And if by following your standard I reject your standard, then what have you left to say that does not simply attempt to bind more of me to your standards for thinking, and interpreting, and speaking, and acting for myself?
Be gone from here, slaver. I am a free man.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Your "conception" of Thelema is just a mental construct, like every one else's."
Obviously. When we have a discussion, we must discuss concepts, of necessity.
But my conception of Thelema doesn't guide my actions -- my Will does that.
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@Legis said
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@Los said
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@Legis said
"I have not suggested that anyone follow any particular standard."You've suggested that you yourself follow the standard of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Perhaps. But what is that to you?"
It's evidently part of my Will to critique things people say in public on a supposedly Thelemic messageboard.
In this specific example, you at least claim to be interested in Thelema, but your explanation of what you're doing flies in the face of actual Thelemic practice. So I'm pointing that out.
"unless you are attempting to convert me not only to follow your own standard"
I could care less what you do. My interest is entirely in discussing your ideas.
"I reject your standard."
I don't have a standard.
"I reject your interpretation of True Will."
You mean the one I've thoroughly supported with reference to Crowley's writings spanning his entire career? Ah, yes. Obviously, "True Will" is more likely to mean whatever the heck a person wants it to mean, just because. How silly of me to use the definition given by the guy who made the term up.
"My true will has specifically to do with dreams, and symbols, and magic, and everything you call vain and useless to the Will."
I've called those things useless in discovering the Will. It might very well be part of carrying out your True Will to perform magick or to study symbology or to study dream interpretation.
"Am I not free to do so even by your own standard?"
You can do whatever you want. Who's stopping you? I'm just having a discussion on a board that is designed for discussions (imagine that!)
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about: you insist on reading reality through the prism of your imagination instead of seeing through these mental phantasms and perceiving what is actually happening. No one is trying to "enslave" you or "persecute" you (overdramatic, much?). We're just talking about ideas.
And you're going to keep floundering in the prison of your own mind until you acquire the courage to admit to yourself that you could be totally wrong about some of these positions of yours.
"Be gone from here, slaver. I am a free man."
No one who is a prisoner to the standards of his mind is free.
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Los, what you term "discussion" most term "preaching conversion."
To the degree that you mock and belittle those who hold differing opinions, you are not having a discussion, you are attempting to manipulate others through shame, which is the worst form of preaching conversion.
You are against "illusion" and people having "fancy ideas of themselves." Then allow me to follow my Will with firm Love and disabuse you, Beloved, of fantasies that are apparent to all but yourself.
The idea that you are merely participating in discussion instead of actively trying to convert others through shame to your own understanding and description of Will, and thus your own standard of Willing, is your fancy idea of yourself.
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The problem with a external standard that has been internalized such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is that living up to it requires a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating. Any dogmatic rigidity will simply be exploited by people who have any of the dark triad personality traits.
We are programmed by the popular culture - a thousand feel good movies, and the naive ethical programming of childhood socialization, to believe that if we adhere to some external standard of 'goodness' or an external standard of altruism and if we simply keep on giving and displaying love to people through good works then eventually any selfish bastard on earth can be 'saved' with enough persistence and they will eventually start to appreciate, internalize and replicate the ethic behind it instead of taking what is offered and saying "Thanks.... suckers!"
That' not practical or realistic and it turns people into victims and self made martyrs.
This is not an argument against altruism per se when it is in line with the will, but it is an argument against any *dogmatic and rigid *forms of altruism that are derived from an external standard that is intended to be a universal guide to action.
Ultimately, you cannot teach or demonstrate love to others if you are unwilling to be loving and considerate to yourself first. As it is a dogmatic standard you are adhering to then the dark triad sense the ultimate dichotomy of self against self and reject it. They see that sort of love for what it ultimately is - a method of coercion and manipulation which is cloaking its own selfishness in altruistic clothes.
I'm with Los and Veronica on this one and I think they have made some excellent points.
The conception of Thelema is a mental construct but it points back to the Will rather than embracing any external and dogmatic standard that can be exploited by others, and that alone is something which should reduce the prevalence of the dark triad instead of encouraging it by feeding it new dogmatically minded victims ready for exploitation.
Thelema is "The Law of the Strong!"
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@Alrah said
"The problem with a external standard that has been internalized such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is that living up to it requires a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating. Any dogmatic rigidity will simply be exploited by people who have any of the dark triad personality traits."
And not only will it be exploited by others, it will make an individual think that he should be acting according to certain principals when, in fact, if he would cease to pay attention to those ideas, the Will would flow naturally.
“For until we become innocent, we are certain to try to judge our Will by some Canon of what seems ‘right’ or ‘wrong’; in other words, we are apt to criticise our Will from the outside, whereas True Will should spring, a fountain of Light, from within, and flow unchecked, seething with Love, into the Ocean of Life.” –- Crowley, Little Essays Towards Truth
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@Alrah said
"The problem with a external standard that has been internalized such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is that living up to it requires a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating. Any dogmatic rigidity will simply be exploited by people who have any of the dark triad personality traits.
"And what of the injunctions, advice, "standards" if you will, of Liber Legis?
"Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt."
"Obey my prophet!"
"Pity not the fallen! I never knew them."
"Mercy let be off: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!"May these not also be misunderstood? Do they also, when internalized, "require a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating"?
In my opinion, any spiritual injunction may be misinterpreted, "standardized," and abused by those who wish to manipulate others for their own benefit. If I were a "dark triad" type, oh how I might abuse them to manipulate others into being an enforcer of my ego's own kingdom.
I do agree that Thelema as a whole is more resistant to being abused by manipulations of compassion. It does, however, exhibit some weaknesses,* when specific injunctions are taken out of their context and abused *as "do unto others" has been, in creating a blindness to the potentials of the "dark triad" in oneself.
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@Legis said
"And what of the injunctions, advice, "standards" if you will, of Liber Legis?"
The Book of the Law does not contain standards to which the aspirant is instructed to live up. The Book contains one primary injunction, "Do what thou wilt," and it's defined in such a way that doing what one wills entails not attempting to adhere to any standards at all.
You might be better off understanding this not as a command to be followed but as a simple statement of fact. People do act according to their nature/Will. The only problem is that this Will gets hampered in its expression (because people falsely assume that the Khu is in the Khabs, rather than the Khabs in the Khu; that is, they falsely assume the solution is "out there" in some ideal that they have to live up to, when in fact, the Will is already within them and they simply have to get their mind -- with its "standards" -- to shut up already).
Part of what's making this difficult for you is that you probably have nothing to go on but the appearance of the words: my strong suspicion is that you don't have any direct experience of perceiving and learning to see through the creations of your mind. If you did, you would grasp the difference between Will and mental constructs, at least to some extent, and you wouldn't be having the problems that you're having in understanding, nor would you be forced to recourse to the appearance of words as opposed to the substance represented by those words.
"May these not also be misunderstood? [...] any spiritual injunction may be misinterpreted "
You're still not understanding. Thelema is opposed to standards not because those standards are "misunderstood' -- which would imply that there's a correct way to understand them and that following them according to this correct way would be conducive to the Law of the Thelema -- rather, Thelema is opposed to standards because all actions motivated by standards are not being guided by the individual's True Will.
Again, if you acquired some elementary experience in observing your Will, this would be easier for you to understand.
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@Legis said
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@Alrah said
"The problem with a external standard that has been internalized such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is that living up to it requires a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating. Any dogmatic rigidity will simply be exploited by people who have any of the dark triad personality traits.
"And what of the injunctions, advice, "standards" if you will, of Liber Legis?
"Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt."
"Obey my prophet!"
"Pity not the fallen! I never knew them."
"Mercy let be off: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!"May these not also be misunderstood? Do they also, when internalized, "require a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating"?
In my opinion, any spiritual injunction may be misinterpreted, "standardized," and abused by those who wish to manipulate others for their own benefit. If I were a "dark triad" type, oh how I might abuse them to manipulate others into being an enforcer of my ego's own kingdom.
I do agree that Thelema as a whole is more resistant to being abused by manipulations of compassion. It does, however, exhibit some weaknesses,* when specific injunctions are taken out of their context and abused *as "do unto others" has been, in creating a blindness to the potentials of the "dark triad" in oneself."
Well, you're assuming there is a standard to be had from Liber Al vel Legis that everyone understands in the same way... and yet - take the line which says "Pity not the fallen! I never knew them." I have no idea what you think this means, but to me I interpret it as saying "I never knew the 'fallen' Tree of Life - don't pity letting it go!" And the 'them' in this line is not about people to me but sephiroth! lol. I might even subject the words 'pity not' to analysis by gematria or anagram analysis to reveal a completely different meaning.
If there is a 'standard' about the Book of the Law then it's in the way it defaces the apparent meaning of the text so it is not apprehendable by strict rationalism - as do many Kabbalistic works.
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@Alrah said
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Well, you're assuming there is a standard to be had from Liber Al vel Legis that everyone understands in the same way... "Not me personally. I refer to the potential of abusing the text of* Liber Legis *in the same manner that is currently being done with the Bible and "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" in this discussion.
In this discussion, the assumption is that those who have interpreted the Bible and Jesus' words in the fashion you, Los, and perhaps even Crowley describe are actually giving the "correct" way of interpreting the Bible and Jesus' words - therefore, the injunction "Do unto others" itself must necessarily be precisely as base and destructive as the worst interpretation and application of the masses.
I hope that this principle will not be applied to* Liber Legis*, but in my experience such a misreading is the primary response.
To paraphrase Mr. Mackey: "Christianity is bad, m'kay? And everything Jesus said is bad - because Christianity is bad, m'kay?"
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@Legis said
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@Alrah said
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Well, you're assuming there is a standard to be had from Liber Al vel Legis that everyone understands in the same way... "Not me personally. I refer to the potential of abusing the text of* Liber Legis *in the same manner that is currently being done with the Bible and "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" in this discussion.
In this discussion, the assumption is that those who have interpreted the Bible and Jesus' words in the fashion you, Los, and perhaps even Crowley describe are actually giving the "correct" way of interpreting the Bible and Jesus' words - therefore, the injunction "Do unto others" itself must necessarily be precisely as base and destructive as the worst interpretation and application of the masses.
I hope that this principle will not be applied to* Liber Legis*, but in my experience such a misreading is the primary response.
To paraphrase Mr. Mackey: "Christianity is bad, m'kay? And everything Jesus said is bad - because Christianity is bad, m'kay?""
I see the distinction yo're making here and understand. There is an argument to be made that all things in the bible, although written apparently in ordinary language are not about ordinary things or even a historical record, but are about theosophy - the psychodynamics of God, which would make Jesus's words a commentary about how God interacts with himself rather than moral or ethical guidance to be followed dogmatically by mankind.
As I understand it - 'the comment' is intended to make us alive to the possibility of standardizing our interpretation of the text which may lead to an exoteric understanding of the book. It's good to be reminded of this on occasion. Thanks for bringing it up.
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@Legis said
"There is also the theory that the only records we have left of the appearance of an Enlightened One (Buddha, what-have-you) are those voted on by the majority who destroyed the rest, preferring a ...less gnostic agenda."
Well... when you have gnostic texts calling Adam, Abraham, Moses etc 'laughingstock' ... well!
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"The Christian Old testament laws were man made but Do what thou wilt is to command vines to grow grapes"
Only if it is in accordance to the true will of the vine. Nature changes, everything changes, I do not think that a vine will always have to grow grapes. It took plants millions of years to flower, who can even speculate on the true will or potential of an organism over such a period of time.
In the context of the original topic, which was the function of gratitude in magic, I am reminded that magic is little more then Nature. In nature we humans, and most all other forms of life are gifted with the expierence of joy, bliss, peace, satisfaction and pleasure. In nature we have the ability to find value, grace and appreciation. Those who can easily find value in nature, in appreciation will have an easy time with magic, with Thelema because they are deeply correlated and entangled. Nature is the supreme teacher of Thelema because it is the master to which everything else we know conforms. If it serves the vine to grow grapes it will, because the vine has learned the mechanics of translation. Yet if there is no reason to translate that information anymore, the vine will find something else to translate to serve it's will.
Your statement Kasper seemed to ring to me that you were imply the vine could only ever grow grapes (commanded from above), and while I agree that the vines true will at this moment in time might be to grow a grape, I do not agree that that is the end all be all of the potential of the vine.
As human beings who seem to strive to do what is our Will, our True Will, I believe that it should be understood that ones Will, and True Will changes, sometimes slowly, sometimes radically as our needs change, specifically as our ability to translate information changes. -
Hi folks, thought I'd throw in my two cents, ...
as I understand the like-treats-like thing ...be it good, or be it bad, it's kinda like a reflector. So if I am grateful in my magick, I trust that it has already worked for me, I am showing gratitude in the extent that my desires have been made manifest, I am offering love to the Goddess of my working, by bringing gifts of gratitude from the heart, things like... milk, honey, flowers, hand made crafts... or items directly related to the work. I give freely and* know* she will freely give back.
BB, Flora
