contemporary Black Brothers
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You really, really seem to assume that proof of magick, the spiritual realm, etc... I'm ALL IN on this statement... will come to you as a product of confirmation with another human who is as precisely as skeptical as you.
A: This person does not exist - not who meets your own perfected criteria.
B: If they did, you would be dependent upon them for confirmation of your own reality.
In my experience, you are simply broken over, and over, and over, until you can no longer accept that the position of disconnectedness is true at all. In my mind, these are the dire judgments of Ra Hoor Khuit, and I've had to eat a few myself. That you have not remains a mystery to me. -
There is only one reality
No my reality and your reality. And things that are true are true with ot without me, were true before I existed and will be true when I am long gone.
Things that are mot true, were are and will always not be true.
What you or I or anyone believes, is irrelevant to truth.
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@Froclown said
"There is only one reality
No my reality and your reality. And things that are true are true with ot without me, were true before I existed and will be true when I am long gone.
Things that are mot true, were are and will always not be true.
What you or I or anyone believes, is irrelevant to truth."
What's missing here is this consideration:
"The ability to reduce everything to simple fundamental laws does not imply the ability to start from those laws and reconstruct the universe.The constructionist hypothesis breaks down when confronted with the twin difficulties of scale and complexity. At each level of complexity entirely new properties appear. Psychology is not applied biology, nor is biology applied chemistry. We can now see that the whole becomes not merely more, but very different from the sum of its parts.(Anderson 1972)"
From this wiki link on emergence: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
A lot of great stuff on this site, like this, which is pretty much Forclown's objection in a nutshell:
"Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic. How does an irreducible but supervenient downward causal power arise, since by definition it cannot be due to the aggregation of the micro-level potentialities? Such causal powers would be quite unlike anything within our scientific ken. This not only indicates how they will discomfort reasonable forms of materialism. Their mysteriousness will only heighten the traditional worry that emergence entails illegitimately getting something from nothing.(Bedau 1997)"
Lusate, I'm totally with you on this!
Love and Will
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@Lusate Auton said
"I do not seek to convince you -
Only to explain to you what you have demanded of me as it is sometimes reasonable.
But I don't have to, you know."
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Froclown, you may be interested into looking at what our Military, and Russian Millitary have pretty well proven in the realms of PSI ect.
My father was an army guinea pig, in the 1950's, all in the realm of PSI research. He underwent years of sensory deprevation testing, and concepts similar to remote viewing.
My nephew was a Marine guinea pig in 2001
And I personally was also experimented with in the 1970's at the Geneva NY army base.
The military have pretty well vetted that psi is real, and that it's not just a mind trick.
Their are several published books about this branch, and even a silly comedy movie of it, I am sure their is a lot of disinformation as well, but my families involvement was real enough for me.
Maybe instead of joining a commune and farming and weaving, you should join the military and get clearance so you can read the reports, and possibly even become a guinea pig yourself, They pay pretty well, enough to pay off your car and student loans.....
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How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. ~Abraham Lincoln
There is an objective reality out there, but we view it through the spectacles of our beliefs, attitudes, and values. ~David G. Myers, Social Psychology
Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion. ~Democritus
To treat your facts with imagination is one thing, but to imagine your facts is another. ~John Burroughs
Listening to both sides of a story will convince you that there is more to a story than both sides. ~Frank Tyger
All the mind's activity is easy if it is not subjected to reality. ~Marcel Proust
The human understanding is like a false mirror, which, receiving rays irregularly, distorts and discolors the nature of things by mingling its own nature with it. ~Francis Bacon
How reluctantly the mind consents to reality! ~Norman Douglas
I believe in a real, physical world. I figure if the world existed only in my mind, it would pay more attention to me. ~Robert Brault
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Froclown needs no words from us, nor books -he needs his own personal experience. that's all. (just that
)
that, and - Love. lots lots of love to receive, to open his heart up. -
What part of you must always deny your own experience and accept Only data of science ant nothing else, do you not understand.
That no matter what your experiences are expressions of the physical brain. The stronger your brain demands that certainty the stronger you must doubt it. always deny yourself before data.
Any experience I have had either has a natural, physical cause, or I just don't know what that natural physical cause is, and so I don't as yet have an explanation.
That is what science is, either you know the physical cause backed by data, or you suspend all belief about it until you find a physical hypothesis that is subject to test, and either test it, or hold it up to professional evidence from other experiments.
You do not concoct some half baked idiotic spiritual nonsense to rationalize that experience.
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"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. ~Abraham Lincoln
There is an objective reality out there, but we view it through the spectacles of our beliefs, attitudes, and values. ~David G. Myers, Social Psychology
Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion. ~Democritus
To treat your facts with imagination is one thing, but to imagine your facts is another. ~John Burroughs
Listening to both sides of a story will convince you that there is more to a story than both sides. ~Frank Tyger
All the mind's activity is easy if it is not subjected to reality. ~Marcel Proust
The human understanding is like a false mirror, which, receiving rays irregularly, distorts and discolors the nature of things by mingling its own nature with it. ~Francis Bacon
How reluctantly the mind consents to reality! ~Norman Douglas
I believe in a real, physical world. I figure if the world existed only in my mind, it would pay more attention to me. ~Robert Brault"
words...words....words
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@Froclown said
"What part of you must always deny your own experience and accept Only data of science ant nothing else, do you not understand.
That no matter what your experiences are expressions of the physical brain. The stronger your brain demands that certainty the stronger you must doubt it. always deny yourself before data.
Any experience I have had either has a natural, physical cause, or I just don't know what that natural physical cause is, and so I don't as yet have an explanation.
That is what science is, either you know the physical cause backed by data, or you suspend all belief about it until you find a physical hypothesis that is subject to test, and either test it, or hold it up to professional evidence from other experiments.
You do not concoct some half baked idiotic spiritual nonsense to rationalize that experience."
we do love you, you know? (I'm sure you don't feel it
, but maybe you know it...)
otherwise we wouldn't spend so much time (and cyber-space) speaking to you.try to feel it! as an experiment, of course. but just feel it, not judge on it, analyse it etc.
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@Shadonis said
"words...words....words"
Shadonis, your quoting Hamlet, how appropriate!
@danica said
"Froclown needs no words from us, nor books -he needs his own personal experience. that's all. (just that
)
that, and - Love. lots lots of love to receive, to open his heart up."Actually, I'm not aiming my words at Froclown. I stopped doing that awhile back. But this idea about the Black Brothers was so interesting it sucked me back into a topic, that is, as it always tends to be when he gets involved, so much about him!
Think about it. Even before he can lay claim to any experience of the Abyss and what is beyond it he has already worked out what it is to within an inch of its life! This has got to be protective—a circular set of ideas that are immune, at least in his own mind, to criticism or doubt. He is safe in that tower he has built for himself, or which he is renting from someone else, hard to say which.
As for the love? Sure why not.
After all, I'm a hippie!Love and Will
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GROUP HUG!
Love and Will
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@RobertAllen said
"GROUP HUG!
Love and Will"
I like the way you think,
It is Friday after all,
And I do believe it is my favorite feast day.....
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@Froclown said
"...always deny yourself before data....
...either you know the physical cause backed by data, or you suspend all belief about it until you find a physical hypothesis that is subject to test, and either test it, or hold it up to professional evidence from other experiments. "The problem is: you have to rely on someone else's data! What happens when professional science turns out to be just as human as any other endeavour? When it's discovered that ideology/ego/belief/fantasy driven science has corrupted the data and interpretation to the core? Never mind political influences! Ultimately, you have to do the experiments yourself if you really want to know. Until then (and even so), you simply don't.
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"Ultimately, you have to do the experiments yourself if you really want to know."
Thanks. Well said. I wholeheartedly concur.
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No scientists publish what they did and their actual data form instruments.
And if you question it, you can look at the set up and method and see where some variable might have allowed some other explanation, and you can redo the experiment, accounting for that variable.
Science is not opinion in any way. It collects objective data.
I do not understand why you dint understand you did not exist before you were born, will stop existing when you die, your Brian is a computer that created a virtual representation of the world relative to the effects of physical events son your body, your body is made of the physical stuff you eat and nothing else. Before you where born, you were the planes and meat your mother ate, that her body shaped into you like a potter shapes clay.
When the pot breaks is returns to the earth, when your body breaks it returns to the soil.
And there is no other world, inside your jar of a head is brain goo, that like computer Chips reacts in complex ways to inputs and produces outputs in body movements.
That is reality, the virtual mind is colors, shapes, smells, tastes, thoughts, feelings, etc are just stimulaions of parts of the Brain.
The virtual mind, the so called inner world is all false, illusion, lies, symbols. The computer is your brain the video game is just software, busing of electricity In the chips, and the virtual world is really just colored dots on the tv screen. Like wise astral planes are just colored dots in the brain.
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Crowley believed he was the reincarnation of Eliphas Levi. He couldn't prove it to anyone but himself but he believed his Science proved it to him. The sun is the center of our solar system, man's science took a very long time to figure that one out. Froclown relies (falsely) on autocorrect, he hasn't the science to figure out how to turn it off. Likewise, he thinks "like wise" is the correct usage.
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@JNV33 said
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@Froclown said
"Science is not opinion in any way. It collects objective data. "I appreciate your idealism. But for someone so enamoured with materialism and objectivity, you sure have your head in the clouds!"
Actually, he doesn't believe in clouds, only in physiology. Want to rephrase your remark in physiological language?
