contemporary Black Brothers
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@Froclown said
" They unconscious mind picks up on the subtle differences in the deck design, before conscious awareness. Those people who were more Tuned into being aware of their heart rates, picked up on the way the game was rigged sooner than those with less awareness of heart rate. "
I'm sorry but that is a load of crap.
If I shuffle a deck of 78 cards any number of times I cannot possibly notice any "subtle differences" in the card design, not if it's the same pack every time.
You could , if pushed, postulate that one could unconsciously memorise the whereabouts of every card in the deck and therefore know exactly what card one was about to pull in one's unconscious mind.
But the fact that I more often than not failed to guess the correct card, shows that in my case this was not happening, it proved nothing and therefore this argument is purely academic.
I know that I am not Psychic, and I can live with that.
If you ask me, "subtle differences in decks of cards" as you put it, is merely clutching at straws, you yourself are not being scientific, but are more concerned with proving yourself right than with actually adhering to the scientific method.
I am sorry, but you have exposed yourself; although I am with you up to a point, in asserting that all of our tests and practices should be verifiable by scientific means, I part with you on the basis that you are in fact not practicing what you preach, but are more interested in making a point than in making progress.
And why is this? are you afraid to be wrong? are you afraid to be right?
What is it that you hold on to so desperately; your ace in the hole, the thing that makes you think that you know what is going on in the world?
And might I ask; why are you even on this forum? which is run by, and run for Thelemites, and occultists? Because if you were the materialist and skeptic that you claim to be you would not be seen anywhere near anything as kooky and irrational as Magick?
Do you actually practice Magick, or meditation? If so, how do you rationalize it to yourself? Have you had any results? would you even recognize them if you did?
From my own experience in this field I can say that although certain changes have occurred in my worldview, and my consciousness as a result of my practice, it has rarely, if ever, been particularly spectacular; no fireworks, no visions of grandeur, but only a slow and subtle unfolding of the senses, of the perceptions.
If you want fireworks, practice chemistry; if you want cosmic foo foo, join a new age cult; if you want the long slow, hard and often desolate road of spiritual unfolding, stay with us, but leave your preconceptions at the door.
This ain't Kansas Dorothy.
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@Solitarius said
"And might I ask; why are you even on this forum? which is run by, and run for Thelemites, and occultists? Because if you were the materialist and skeptic that you claim to be you would not be seen anywhere near anything as kooky and irrational as Magick?"
I would actually state the question more narrowly; because this is not (for example) a general Thelemic forum. It's specifically the forum of Temple of Thelema, a mystery school that teaches occultism, magick, etc., with specific goals such as the furtherance of one's spiritual awakening. It would (from one point of view) be quite reasonable to limit discussion topics here to the particular teachings (or, at least, areas of teaching) of the College & Temple of Thelema.
But, since this is a school, the teacher leaves the floor open for wider discussion, including disagreeing with the teachings. This is a tactic on my part: I think it furthers one's education to have to struggle with the material a bit and be forced to think for yourself about it. But tactic it is, rather than, say, a right that participants have. (It's openly stated to be a moderated forum, after all.) And, because I am one of those disgusting, ineffective, life-wasting, unproductive, cloud-brained, tolerant liberals about whom Froclown regularly educates us, I lean toward giving someone more rope rather than less... erring in the direction of free speech... giving everybody their shot.
I suppose I'm mentioning this today because there have, recently, been a couple of people question why I'm so heavy handed in moderating this forum. After I got over my shock
I realized that, perhaps, I should say that, were I heavy-handed, then I would regard pretty much everything Froclown posts as off-topic to a forum specifically about occult, metaphysical, spiritual teachings - and he'd have been out of here long ago.But, as long as it doesn't get openly malicious, I prefer to roll out the rope and and let everybody else draw their own conclusions about where they see dope-on-a-rope, and where they see pope-on-a-rope soap.
(But I still share your question about why he bothers.)
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I knew this thread would turn into a materialism vs. subjectivism debate:
Probability or clairvoyance?
Either way, I see the future! And it's called pattern apprehension!
And, sometimes, the future isn't all that useful or exciting!
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Also:
@Jim Eshelman said
"I suppose I'm mentioning this today because there have, recently, been a couple of people question why I'm so heavy handed in moderating this forum. After I got over my shock I realized that, perhaps, I should say that, were I heavy-handed, then I would regard pretty much everything Froclown posts as off-topic to a forum specifically about occult, metaphysical, spiritual teachings - and he'd have been out of here long ago."
In my opinion, I don't think the moderation needs justification. The forum suits the reasoning behind why it was set up. And I do appreciate you giving everybody their freedom to opine in unpopular directions...even, sometimes, in very pointless directions.
Heavy-handed? Nah.
Focused.
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I agree that it's definitely challenging, and although sometimes it can seem to be all a bit besides the point, it is true that we all need something to challenge our thinking, to make sure we are thinking.
I usually don't get too heavily involved with the online sparring, although I have had my moments, for me the most important thing is getting the work done; i guess I come to this forum specifically to be challenged, and @Froclown, your viewpoint is certainly that.
I apologize if my statements earlier seemed a little overly sharp, I am not that subtle, however, they were honestly made and I stand by them, not out of hostility, but out of genuine concern for one who seems so dangerously one sided; I admit that I have been guilty of the kind of Victorian materialism that makes any real progress impossible, and i can see the trap that you are digging for yourself.
My advice is this; Doubt all, but also give the benefit of the doubt; don't just deny until proven otherwise, but withhold judgement until you actually understand the specific parameters that this kind of work operates within; in other words, although it is true that we should use the scientific method, we should nor make the error of confusing the planes; psychological facts are not the same as physical facts,and magickal facts are not the same as either of these, although they partake of the nature of both to a greater or lesser extent.
Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out
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@Solitarius said
"
@Froclown said
" They unconscious mind picks up on the subtle differences in the deck design, before conscious awareness. Those people who were more Tuned into being aware of their heart rates, picked up on the way the game was rigged sooner than those with less awareness of heart rate. "I'm sorry but that is a load of crap.
If I shuffle a deck of 78 cards any number of times I cannot possibly notice any "subtle differences" in the card design, not if it's the same pack every time.
"If it helps you reconcile your love for Froclown I'll tell you that I imagined he was discussing experiments with marked decks of playing cards.
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I always get a good vibe from Froclown. I even appreciate, in some strange way, how he hijacks threads and makes statements I don't even wanna read all the way through. <!-- s:L) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile-l.gif" alt=":L)" title="Smile-L" /><!-- s:L) -->
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In the experiment the card game had cards that were marked by beng from slightly different decks.
In the liber E practice if you keep it up for along time, your tarot cards will start to wear out, you will end up with little marks, tears, bends, etc that you may cue into but not be aware that you cue into them.
Also this practice has another aspect to it from that book. And it is that if you guess wrong, you are supposed to justify why you guessed wrong, maybe you guess the 5 of swords but the Hermit comes up and you say, oh well the book of thoth references Nietzsche on the 5 of swords and the hermit is analogous to nietzsches mad man who declares God is dead. And so on, you learn to rationalize your misses, and this both works to train yourself for conformation biased ways of thinking, such that you later have a mind primed to fool itself to accept shoddy evidence as proof of the super natural. And this practice also helps buid a memorization of the Kabbalah spheres and paths, and an active working with them on the fly. It sort of works like a full emersion technique of learning the language of Kabbalah.
And for those savvy enough to realize this practice is playing on and even strengthening confirmation bias types of cognitive thinking, one can learn to deconstruct those tendencies, and learn to be aware of the types of links between ideas that one used to justify amd rationalize experiences to fit ones biases, and then work to be aware of and decondition oneself to not allow this biases to interfere with logically valid interpretations of data sets.
That is the true purpose of those practices, but the unwary and easily misguided student takes them at their literal expression, and actually rather than improving upon their mental acuity strengths self deceptive and fallacious mental processes.
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@Froclown said
"In the experiment the card game had cards that were marked by beng from slightly different decks.
In the liber E practice if you keep it up for along time, your tarot cards will start to wear out, you will end up with little marks, tears, bends, etc that you may cue into but not be aware that you cue into them.
Also this practice has another aspect to it from that book. And it is that if you guess wrong, you are supposed to justify why you guessed wrong, maybe you guess the 5 of swords but the Hermit comes up and you say, oh well the book of thoth references Nietzsche on the 5 of swords and the hermit is analogous to nietzsches mad man who declares God is dead. And so on, you learn to rationalize your misses, and this both works to train yourself for conformation biased ways of thinking, such that you later have a mind primed to fool itself to accept shoddy evidence as proof of the super natural. And this practice also helps buid a memorization of the Kabbalah spheres and paths, and an active working with them on the fly. It sort of works like a full emersion technique of learning the language of Kabbalah.
And for those savvy enough to realize this practice is playing on and even strengthening confirmation bias types of cognitive thinking, one can learn to deconstruct those tendencies, and learn to be aware of the types of links between ideas that one used to justify amd rationalize experiences to fit ones biases, and then work to be aware of and decondition oneself to not allow this biases to interfere with logically valid interpretations of data sets.
That is the true purpose of those practices, but the unwary and easily misguided student takes them at their literal expression, and actually rather than improving upon their mental acuity strengths self deceptive and fallacious mental processes."
You really are beyond belief
No one said anything about marked cards, or worn out cards, or cards from different decks so that you would unconsciously know which cards were which.
You would stretch you idea of "reason" indefinitely simply to prove yourself right.
I bet if the Archangel Gabriel himself came to you and told you to desist you would call him a hallucination and blame it on whatever you had for dinner, or bad air, or lack of sleep, or anything at all to avoid facing the reality that YOU SIMPLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND!
(Before you seize upon it for your own reasons I am not implying the reality or not of archangels, that was merely an illustration to make a point)You are obviously not a rational man, and do not respond to reason, and on those grounds I have nothing more to say to you.
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@Solitarius said
"You are obviously not a rational man, and do not respond to reason, and on those grounds I have nothing more to say to you."
Welcome to the club!
Love and Will
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There are no such things as angels, so if I see one, it is an hallucination, or a trick, or a dream.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
The evidence for angels is ummm nothing. So we are not justified to believe in them.
Now the sort of evidence we need are some video tape may help, a large siting.
Fossils, some wing feathers, a nest, a bit of angel DNA. Etc.
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@Froclown said
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
The evidence for angels is ummm nothing. So we are not justified to believe in them.
Now the sort of evidence we need are some video tape may help, a large siting.
Fossils, some wing feathers, a nest, a bit of angel DNA. Etc."
Gravity is evident by the action it has on the material but gravity is in no way materially existent.
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Here is a list of black brothers.
The Phelps family, these so called Baptists are a nest of vipers, full of hatred of life. A black lodge to rival that of Douglas in Moonchild.
Michele Bachmann: the republican candidate who is not only anti gay marriage, but on a puritanical crusade against sex in all forms, even banning all forms of pornography.
Barak Obama: whose crusade for liberalism and entitlement is about to plunge the whole world into bankruptcy.
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"Thus. Attainment is acceptance of a purely scientific materialism reality, and the leaving behind total all that is the inner, spiritual, or subjective awareness. The hardware stripped of all software, is the body without a name. And that is the Magister Templi as opposed to the black brother who refuses to give up his name, his soul, and his subjective perspective "personal reality" over to the cold meaningless objective truth of the abyss."
The main debate here, I think, has become about the primacy of consciousness. This is a good video on the topic. - unusmundus-melie.blogspot.com/2009/09/video-primacy-of-consciousness.html
I will asert that mind gives rise to matter. It is not the ultimate reality, it is created by the ultimately real being. Your true, core identity is this real being. It is the source of all creation, but it has none of the characteristics of any creation.
Here are some excerpts from some of my thoughts on this that I posted on my blog. - unusmundus-melie.blogspot.com/2009/09/writing-by-me-freeform-thought.html
If you think of God as simply that creative force that creates things, and if you think of the space in which these things are created as a mind, then what do you call these things that have been created? I think that you would call them imaginary. This is why I say that God is alone and that all creation is imaginary.
There is only one being that is real and infinite and perfect. We are that being, temporarily seeing itself as an infinite number of imperfect, finite beings and things. I believe that we are in a cyclical process in which we perceive something that is not true (this is the state we are in now where we see our self as separate beings and things) and then we return to reality and there is just YOU, that one infinite perfect being. It is that part of you that was the only thing that was real to begin with. It is that part of you that transcends a name and matter and death. What are we doing in this imperfect state right now?....we are defining and reaffirming our true nature which is infinite and perfect. There is only infinite, there is no finite. It’s like looking at a one and a zero and insisting that there really is in fact a zero there next to the one. In a sense there is a zero there, but it just represents nothing. All it really does is define the one.
Enlightenment is the understanding that you are coming from and going to infinite perfection and that your purpose is to give and receive unending fulfillment. Enlightenment is the realization that the deepest core of your being is the infinite source of creation behind all things. You are both empowered and without ego because you see that One is all there is. Enlightenment is also the understanding that the way in which giving and receiving is accomplished cannot be reasoned since the means of accomplishing this feat is to abandon reason. Enlightenment is seeing the full circle of existence and discovering that to be filled one must first become empty. It can only be said that when you are full you cast away your oneness (this is where you give, this is where you abandon reason and this is where the illusion begins). Illusion is finite but Truth is infinite, therefore illusion must give way as you awaken once again to the joy and peace of your unchanged infinite perfect state of being. (This is where you receive, this is where you find your reason, and this is where the illusion ends).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
I would actually state the question more narrowly; because this is not (for example) a general Thelemic forum. It's specifically the forum of Temple of Thelema, a mystery school that teaches occultism, magick, etc., with specific goals such as the furtherance of one's spiritual awakening. It would (from one point of view) be quite reasonable to limit discussion topics here to the particular teachings (or, at least, areas of teaching) of the College & Temple of Thelema.
"I think the better question is does an active (as in daily posting) general Thelemic forum actually exist anywhere on the internet? I have found plenty of general occult forums, but none specifically Thelemic, and I have been wondering if it is merely a case of the major search engines not indexing it, or if in fact it does not exist because of the actions of the secret chiefs (or some other more mundane reasons.)
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It is very clear that mind is matter, amd matter is not mind.
Idealist ontology is absurd.
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Matter is only one spectrum of the rainbow; one narrow view of a single thing.
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And that one thing that is being seen is a creation of that which is unseen and uncreated.