Greater Ritual of the Pentagram
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93 In Greater Ritual of the Pentagram during Invoking east & south you perform Rending the Veil and west and north you perform sign of Closing The Veil . Is it opposite when banshing or still the same ? 93/93
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@Sidann Storm said
"93 In Greater Ritual of the Pentagram during Invoking east & south you perform Rending the Veil and west and north you perform sign of Closing The Veil . Is it opposite when banshing or still the same ? 93/93"
There are two points of view - two different usages across time.
One view is that both Opening and Closing (as a matched pair) are given at each quarter (for each element).
The other view is that Opening is used with the Equiliberation of Actives pentagram (the one paired with Fire and Air), and the that Closing is used with the Equilibration of Passives (the one paired with Water and Earth).
In any case, the same sign pairings should be used with the invoking and banishing.
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Jim, I have read about what you have explained above. I have a very important question to ask of you.
Does the following sound like a valid supreme banishing pentagram ritual?:
Kabalistic Cross
1 Invoking spirit active in East
2 Banishing Air in East
3 Banishing Fire in South
4 Banishing Water in West
5 Banishing Earth in North
6 Banishing spirit passive after returning to EastReading over this now, it sounds a little incomplete. If I were to use the following, adding that I use both spirit active and spirit passive in Each quarter, (which I am more inclined to do than splitting Active and Passive between the 4 elements,) which form of spirit passive should I use after banishing an element in a quarter? (Invoking or Banishing?)
Saying, if at each quarter, I start with Invoking spirit active, then banish the element, then finish with a spirit passive -- if I am to do a huge banishment from powers around me that seem to have collected through my pre-magic years of adolescent repugnance -- should I finish each quarter with a passive invoking or banishing closing of the veil?
This is so very important to me. Any help is greatly appreciated.
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@ThelemicMage said
"Does the following sound like a valid supreme banishing pentagram ritual?"
Kabalistic Cross
1 Invoking spirit active in East
2 Banishing Air in East
3 Banishing Fire in South
4 Banishing Water in West
5 Banishing Earth in North
6 Banishing spirit passive after returning to East"You've mixed invoking and banishing. Bad idea. The essential formula of the ritual is that, in each quarter, you do: Banishing spirit (and its sign), banishing element (and its sign).
So: In East, banishing Spirit Active and Portal sign, followed by banishing Air and 2=9 sign. Then, in south, banishing Spirit Active and Portal sign, followed by banishing Fire and 4=7 sign. Etc.
FWIW, I don't think this is at all necessary for even high-level banishing in all but specialized cases. (Even the G.D. Portal ritual doesn't use anything approaching this in force - it's like using a bazooka to shoot tin cans.) If, for example, you were creating a larger ritual of dissolving all phenomena whatsoever into a nihilistic black hole, it could be a significant component (cf. Liber Iod). For most purposes, the Lesser Banishing Pentagram Ritual is perfectly adequate.
"Reading over this now, it sounds a little incomplete. If I were to use the following, adding that I use both spirit active and spirit passive in Each quarter, (which I am more inclined to do than splitting Active and Passive between the 4 elements,) which form of spirit passive should I use after banishing an element in a quarter? (Invoking or Banishing?)"
Match invoking to invoking, banishing to banishing. And match Active (so-called) to Fire and Air, and Passive (so-called) to Water and Earth. (See above for all of this.)
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I see what I have been erroring out in thought and theory on now. It seems a bit obvious now, but I have one more question.
After Banishing Spirit Active, then rending sign, then banishing element, then sign in the East and South for Air and Fire, should I begin in the West with Banishing Spirit Passive, (instead of Banishing Spirit Active,) then Closing of the Veil, then banish water, then Auramoth -- turn to North, Banish Spirit Passive, Close veil, banish Earth, God set Fighting?
If so, then I believe I've got my truthful consciousness finally wrapped around this idea.
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I'm on the run, answering this from my phone. The big mistake I see is that you are trying to limit the number of "Spirit" pentagrams. EVERY quarters gets BOTH a Spirit pentagram (and its sign) and an Elemental Pentagram (and its sign). Don't double them up!
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I believe you may have misread my question, I did try to surmise it in a long sentence combining parts, which reads confusingly, especially from a phone.
I realize that there must be two pentagrams per quarter. However, is it necessary to have Spirit Active in the East and South, and to have Spirit Passive in the West and North? Before banishing the element, both pentagrams traced and signs used?
Would it be more appropriate, for each quarter, to use a Banishing Spirit Active, the Rending Veil, then banishing Element, then Banishing Spirit Passive, then continue to the next quarter?
To me this sounds more complete, each quarter having it's own initiatory and finishing states. The other way, (spirit active in east/south; spirit passive in west/north,) sounds less polished to me for some reason -- less "Supreme" I might say, as compared to the "lesser" pentagram ritual, where elements, spirit actives/passives, and quarters are more reliant on one another, and have been organized to do so.
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I suppose I answered my own question. I am still interested in the differences between doing opening and closing the veil in each quarter as compared to opening in the east and south, and closing in the west and north.
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@ThelemicMage said
"I realize that there must be two pentagrams per quarter. However, is it necessary to have Spirit Active in the East and South, and to have Spirit Passive in the West and North? Before banishing the element, both pentagrams traced and signs used?"
What are traditionally called Active and Passive are, respectively, the equilibration of Fire and Air, and the equilibration of Water and Earth. (You can look at the two points that are connected to the first stroke, whether invoking or banishing.) So - directions aside, but sticking with elements instead - there is a necessary and inherent connection between the Equilibration of Actives pentagram and the elements of Fire and Air, and between the Equilibration of Passives pentagram and the elements of Water and Earth.
"Would it be more appropriate, for each quarter, to use a Banishing Spirit Active, the Rending Veil, then banishing Element, then Banishing Spirit Passive, then continue to the next quarter?"
No. (Again:) No, no, no. One, you're divorcing the elemental pentagrams from the necessary connection to the corresponding Spirit pentagram. Two, the "wrapping it in two Spirit" pentagrams is - at best - unusual and - more candidly - calls into question the whole formula of what you are doing. The preceding Spirit pentagram places the subsequent elemental pentagram in the realm of Spirit. What in the world would a subsequent one do? It's, I think, a misplaced effort at some sort of symmetry that doesn't apply here.
"The other way, (spirit active in east/south; spirit passive in west/north,) sounds less polished to me for some reason -- less "Supreme" I might say, as compared to the "lesser" pentagram ritual, where elements, spirit actives/passives, and quarters are more reliant on one another, and have been organized to do so."
You are presuming that the Passive pentagram (for example) has ANY relationship to Air and Fire. It doesn't. It's like recommending the best vaginal douche for internal penis cleaning: One (at best) has to ask what, exactly, one is trying to accomplish and how one expects it to work.
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@ThelemicMage said
"I am still interested in the differences between doing opening and closing the veil in each quarter as compared to opening in the east and south, and closing in the west and north."
Different styles. One could compose different theories. Mostly, it's just different styles.
The theory of using both is that possibly a tad easier to justify, since the signs are taught as working in a pair - just like the Sign of the Enterer and the Sign of Silence, or Puella and Mulier. (These are the three unnumbered thresholds before each of the three Orders.)
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Thank you so much, Jim. It seems as if I did have some kind of mis-placed effort I was trying to work in to every quarter, that would have been more effective if kept by the elemental rules of the pentagram.
Active in East and South, and passive in West and North it is.
I am beginning to see some patterns here with the signs of NOX. You have opened a door for me that I will probably kick off the hinges, as I usually do, and never look back.
Again, thank you.
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Just understand that the N.O.X. signs are the grade signs from 6=5 through 8=3. That will help you sidestep a lot of the usual confusions.
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One last important question if you do not mind, sir Jim.
In examples of the greater pentagram ritual, one such can be found here www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Greater_Ritual_of_the_Pentagram, it explains that one should make a sign for rending AND closing of the veil, even though in East and South the pentagram of spirit active is used, same thing for West and North: appropriate pentagram used, then rending AND closing of the veil, then pentagram of element attributed to quarter.
It was my understanding that the rending of the veil was only for use in the spirit active pentagrams, and the closing of the veil for spirit passive pentagrams.
Would it then be appropriate to start out in the East, Spirit Active banishing pentagram, Rending the veil, Banishing pentagram of Air, sign of Shu, then a closing of the veil, instead of doing the rending AND closing of the veil right after one uses the Spirit Active pentagram?
Then, after doing same in South with appropriate pentagrams --
Same in the west except for type of Spirit used: Spirit Passive, rending the veil, banish water, sign of Auramoth, close the veil?
It just seems to me that doing a rending and closing of the veil in one go neglects the idea of invoking, (or banishing) spirit. It seems to me that the veil would be rended, the element banished, then veil closed?
How does this sound to you?
And is it necessary to "step through" the veil by moving forward after rending, and if so, do I advancing beginning with the left foot as in the sign of the enterer? I guess I would step backward when closing the veil?
I appreciate all the help. Very much so. I am sure after this, I will have my noggin around this most sacred procedure.
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@ThelemicMage said
"In examples of the greater pentagram ritual, one such can be found here www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Greater_Ritual_of_the_Pentagram, it explains that one should make a sign for rending AND closing of the veil, even though in East and South the pentagram of spirit active is used, same thing for West and North: appropriate pentagram used, then rending AND closing of the veil, then pentagram of element attributed to quarter.
It was my understanding that the rending of the veil was only for use in the spirit active pentagrams, and the closing of the veil for spirit passive pentagrams. "
Was it this thread, or another, where I answered this exact thing yesterday? The point is that there are two theories on this. One theory attaches the pair of signs (both of them) to either Spirit pentagram. The other theory attaches Opening to Actives and Closing to Passives. There are arguments for either theory.
"Would it then be appropriate to start out in the East, Spirit Active banishing pentagram, Rending the veil, Banishing pentagram of Air, sign of Shu, then a closing of the veil, instead of doing the rending AND closing of the veil right after one uses the Spirit Active pentagram?"
How many times do I have to say the same thing?No. No. No. -- No. No. No. No. No. -- No. No. No.
Spirit pentagram. Then Spirit pentagram's sign. Then elemental pentagram. Then elemental pentagram's sign.
Don't nest them. Don't split them up. Don't do signs around either side. Don't do ANY of the things you keep trying to shoehorn into here that keep breaking the simple elegance and rhythm of the ritual.
Or: Do whatever the fuck you want and stop asking me.
[quoe]It just seems to me that doing a rending and closing of the veil in one go neglects the idea of invoking, (or banishing) spirit. It seems to me that the veil would be rended, the element banished, then veil closed?"
They are a PAIR of signs. Like saying, "Hi, howya doin'?" and answering "Fine, you?" Or, more specifically, like Enterer and Silence. One answers the other.
Admittedly, this would make a great deal more sense if you actually passed through the traditional grade rites up through Portal.
"And is it necessary to "step through" the veil by moving forward after rending"
No. They flash open and close.
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Alright, I see the divine patterns through this now, and as you put it, "the simple elegance" of the ritual.
Something deep inside me woke up when I read the word "flashing". I understand the sign and countersign of the pair of spirit signs now. It's like "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law",
then answering with
"Love is the law, Love under Will."My apologies for trying to f|_|ck up a well-designed, inspired ritual with now, seemingly stupid questions.
I will take this all to heart and make something profoundly positive with it.
You seem to have helped me connect directly with things I forgot in my past Magical life, no joke. I think something intentionally put these, now obvious, blocks in my mind, to have them easily moved out of the way at the appropriate time.
Again, I do thank you, Brother of Light and Rainbow Warrior Jim.
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@ThelemicMage said
"Something deep inside me woke up when I read the word "flashing". I understand the sign and countersign of the pair of spirit signs now. It's like "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law",
then answering with "Love is the law, Love under Will.""Yes! Excellent example. (Earlier this morning, I thought of adding "shitting then wiping," but then thought it disrespectful <g>.)
The "flashing" would have been evident to anyone who had passed through an initiation based on the G.D. Neophyte formula, which normally would have started a process that (five steps later) would have led to the communidation of these Portal signs in a particular way. These things really are all part of an integrated pattern where all the pieces fit together with each other.
"I will take this all to heart and make something profoundly positive with it."
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you mentioned on this thread - <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8484">viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8484</a><!-- l --> - that invoking spirit passive in isolation is dangerous "because its purpose is to make you unresistingly open to whatever comes along." you also mention in 776 1/2, regarding the second enochian call (which i believe is an invocation of spirit passive) that "it should not be lightly used, nor employed if elementals are summoned, since it leaves one wide open!"
i am wondering, would this make a greater ritual of pentagram invoking water or earth dangerous in comparison with fire and air (which use spirit active pentagrams)? would a pentagram ritual of water in which the invoking water pentagram comes after invoking spirit passive leave one open to all kinds of watery chaos and at the mercy of uncontrollable undines, whereas a ritual invoking fire after spirit active would be "safer"?
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@bdc said
"i am wondering, would this make a greater ritual of pentagram invoking water or earth dangerous in comparison with fire and air (which use spirit active pentagrams)? would a pentagram ritual of water in which the invoking water pentagram comes after invoking spirit passive leave one open to all kinds of watery chaos and at the mercy of uncontrollable undines, whereas a ritual invoking fire after spirit active would be "safer"?"
Excellent question!
It doesn't seem to work that way. "In isolation" excludes "paired with an Elemental pentagram." Best theory (which matches my observation) is that the Water or Earth invocation "soaks up" (or maybe "soaks into"!) the Spirit invocation.
On the other hand, Water invoking reinforced by such a Spirit pentagram infusion is going to be a very strong Water invocation! (You can invoke water with the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram. The Supreme isn't necessary.) In Temple of Thelema, at a particular point in the training, we use a particular form of Water pentagram ritual that is reinforced with Spirit pentagram usage for (among other purpose) the specific purpose of increasing receptivity to an enormous degree for a particular practice. Safety factors include (a) the readiness of the initiate for that level of practice and (b) appropriate magical hygiene on the space (banish generically before invoking particularly).