Energized enthusiasm and HPA-axis triggering
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"I prefer staying with the term "energized enthusiasm" because (a) it doesn't prematurely anchor it to a particular mechanism and (b) I think magick etc. needs its own technical language for the communication of things not fully and exactly covered by conventional (native) language. - Also, science evolves new terms (e.g., "general relativity") to cover emerging convergences of factors."
I do too. Energized enthusiasm is a good blanket term. The jury is still out on epigenetics (how our genetics dynamically change in regard to behavior and environment), changes in gene expression under the influence of aminergic and cholinergic products, etc. There is a factor infinite and unknown, and I'm with you: I'd rather have a general term that can assimilate these new scientific discoveries but still remain flexible to not exclude new discoveries...just because we can't measure it accurately yet, it doesn't mean other aspects don't exist, and we want to include those too...
@Jim Eshelman said
"And the ability to pick (manufacture) a particular emotional state in a given scenario, for a particular situation, is part and parcel of advanced ceremonial magick. But, in general: No, I don't think we should be controlling our emotions artificially (i.e., by use of artifice) in a general way."
I agree -- that is, I think I know what you're driving at. But, to be clear, what examples do you consider as controlling the emotions artificially in a general way?
@Frater INRI said
"I like to be at peace, quiet, at ease, maybe using cognitive boosters, not merely enthusiasm boosters."
I think science has proven that cognitive and emotive parts of our brain are anything but mutually exclusive. Our "emotions" (based in part on behavior reinforcement) trigger chemicals that enhance our cognitive ability. Norepinephrine is directly linked (it is the binding agent) between synapses that create memory -- which is a major part of cognition -- also, emotion and cognition affect each other in a gigantic recursive loop. I agree, though. All methods are "good" methods, as long as we find them useful. But, all Air and no Water can make for a very dry experience.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The Great Work isn't accomplished by removing ourselves from lower planes - because the whole "effort" (to choose a misleading word) from the beginning has been for that abstract aspect of ourselves to inhabit all planes."
I agree. All of the aspects of ourselves are included in the Work...I like this passage from Liber Tzaddi:
- I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth.
- In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself.
- Ye can have no other Companion.
- Many have arisen, being wise. They have said "Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It."
- Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime."
- I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!
- Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other!
- My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.
- But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher.
- Thus shall equilibrium become perfect. I will aid my disciples; as fast as they acquire this balanced power and joy so faster will I push them.
-
@Frater INRI said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"...from the beginning has been for that abstract aspect of ourselves to inhabit all planes..."...and not being conditioned by any of the planes."
I don't agree with that at all. A great deal of the Great Work of incarnation is specifically to be altered (in the range of one's phenomena) by the experiences. There is no more powerful and pure Thelemic practice IMHO than the deep, attentive experience of things impacting one's sensorium and being moved by them.
Separating the layers - distinguishing oneself from lower planes - is definitely part of the practice along the way, a part of the purification that aids in resuming consciousness of the deeper level. But, that consciousness reacquired, one needs to bring it back into intimate contact with the outer levels that were temporarily vacated.
This BTW is the deeper meaning of the saying that the Great Work is fulfilled in the name Y.H.V.H. Each of those letters represents one of the Four Worlds. Only when a single "word" - the central impulse, or Will, at the heart of one's being - is vibrated "simultaneously" in all Four Worlds is the Great Work fulfilled. ("Simultaneously" is in quotes because two of the worlds are outside of time distinctions, and a third one has extreme elasticity on time - but the word makes the point I intend in the usual sense.)
-
@Frater 639 said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"And the ability to pick (manufacture) a particular emotional state in a given scenario, for a particular situation, is part and parcel of advanced ceremonial magick. But, in general: No, I don't think we should be controlling our emotions artificially (i.e., by use of artifice) in a general way."I agree -- that is, I think I know what you're driving at. But, to be clear, what examples do you consider as controlling the emotions artificially in a general way? "
For example, the idea of being emotionless, which some profess as a value. Or the similar idea of constraining authentic impulses, like denying justified rage. One needs to be "at choice" over their expression - to pick time and place and situation, for example - but not to suppress them. Rather, we need to feel things strongly.
It's the difference between being responsive vs. reactive.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"For example, the idea of being emotionless, which some profess as a value. Or the similar idea of constraining authentic impulses, like denying justified rage. One needs to be "at choice" over their expression - to pick time and place and situation, for example - but not to suppress them. Rather, we need to feel things strongly.
It's the difference between being responsive vs. reactive."
Yes, I agree -- emotions at the appropriate time are appropriate, and quite useful as long as there is a choice whether to weild them or not. I agree that artifically denying authentic impulses can lead to repression -- in fact, I've found that some of those very impulses are propelling us further in our Work, and it is our own bias that sees them as somehow "undesirable".
Emotions aren't necessarily very calm or logical under certain types of analysis -- but that shouldn't deter us from mastering them as one of our magical weapons. They are definitely enjoyable and a part of the beauty of life! They are messengers of joy and love, as well as rage and sorrow. Some of my favorite applications can be found in wine, women, and song...
In other words, energized enthusiasm!
This then in the virtue of the Magick of The Beast 666, and the canon of its proper usage; to destroy the tendency to discriminate between any two things in theory, and in practice to pierce the veils of every sanctuary, pressing forward to embrace every image; for there is none that is not very Isis. The Inmost is one with the Inmost; yet the form of the One is not the form of the other; intimacy exacts fitness. He therefore who liveth by air, let him not be bold to breathe water. But mastery cometh by measure: to him who with labour, courage, and caution giveth his life to understand all that doth encompass him, and to prevail against it, shall be increase. "The word of Sin is Restriction": seek therefore Righteousness, enquiring into Iniquity, and fortify thyself to overcome it.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't agree with that at all. A great deal of the Great Work of incarnation is specifically to be altered (in the range of one's phenomena) by the experiences. There is no more powerful and pure Thelemic practice IMHO than the deep, attentive experience of things impacting one's sensorium and being moved by them."
I have no problem with that statement.
I agree.But, 'being moved' by sensory input as a self-realized individual is quite different from 'being moved' as Joe Doe.
The former acts in harmony with the WIll, the later according to results of his/her past deeds.I think we are talking about the same thing.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Separating the layers - distinguishing oneself from lower planes - is definitely part of the practice along the way, a part of the purification that aids in resuming consciousness of the deeper level. But, that consciousness reacquired, one needs to bring it back into intimate contact with the outer levels that were temporarily vacated."
Of course, what else.
Samadhi is final marriage with Life.
@Jim Eshelman said
"This BTW is the deeper meaning of the saying that the Great Work is fulfilled in the name Y.H.V.H. Each of those letters represents one of the Four Worlds. Only when a single "word" - the central impulse, or Will, at the heart of one's being - is vibrated "simultaneously" in all Four Worlds is the Great Work fulfilled. ("Simultaneously" is in quotes because two of the worlds are outside of time distinctions, and a third one has extreme elasticity on time - but the word makes the point I intend in the usual sense.)"
Yes.
"Lower" planes turn out to be quite different seeing from Above and Yud bestows that insight.
There is no escape, and the strain of knowing is too much to bear for the unprepared, hence the drama of the "workload of the Work". -
@Jim Eshelman said
"For example, the idea of being emotionless, which some profess as a value. Or the similar idea of constraining authentic impulses, like denying justified rage. One needs to be "at choice" over their expression - to pick time and place and situation, for example - but not to suppress them. Rather, we need to feel things strongly."
Jim -- just wanted to show you this to further the theory of the thread subject a bit...thought you'd be interested.
***Cortical norepinephrine (NE) release during attention paradigms (patterns) can increase the alteration detection rate (number of times an alteration was selected) in multiple-cue probability learning during tasks involving giving predictive cues (such as auditory or visual), and thereby enhance subsequent learning. ** The model predicts that NE levels spike when the predictive context is switched, then subside.
In a similar vein, several studies have implicated the LC-NE system in eliciting the P300, a cortical event-related potential that responds to environmental stimuli that have behaviorally-relevant, motivational, or attention grabbing properties. The P300 may reflect updating of prior knowledge regarding stimuli relevant for accurate and efficient decision making. Several studies have searched for a P300 generator in the brain and have ultimately concluded that the potential must have a source that is distributed, synchronous and localized in cortex. This definition is ideally satisfied both functionally and anatomically by the LC neuromodulatory system. **Given its broad projection pattern and the correlation between NE release and increased sensory signal transmission, it seems likely that noradrenergic cortical release is the neuronal mechanism of the P300.**The P300 (P3) wave is an event related potential (ERP) component elicited in the process of decision making. It is considered to be an endogenous potential, as its occurrence links not to the physical attributes of a stimulus, but to a person's reaction to it. **More specifically, the P300 is thought to reflect processes involved in stimulus evaluation or categorization. ***
These studies show norepinephrine directly related to the P300 â this is the reaction that includes new stimulus in a situation â attention and the relative ERP (event related potential) that takes place. Basically, it affects our attention to detail, by increasing awareness and response time, and improving our decision making by being able to focus on more detail. Like your response vs. reactive statement. It seems to be very related to awareness and evaluation, which are the primary factors in control and subsequent choice.
-
@Dar es Allrah said
"Did you believe this perception? And if so/or not - why?"
Once a student asked immortal Master, Mahavatar Babaji:
"Why is it that a devotee is thrown back into maya, the blackness of the day-to-day life after
he has achieved spiritual realization of Godhead?"The Master said:
"But there is no difference between Him and His maya".So, in a way, I had a lot of BS (it hurt too) to deal with, but then again, who am/was I to suppress/avoid or project aversion against certain energies in my bodies/in the world?
It is just easier to deal with inner/outer dis-harmonies;
not that the label "dis-harmonies" implies any kind of wrongness or negativity. It is the duty of a mountain to fall before adept and hinder him, and it is the duty of an adept to remove that mountain.
It is as simple as that.Has that answered your inquiry, pls?
-
Energized Enthusiasm is concerned with causation, where these proposed systems tend towards correlation.
The former involving the direction of intent, the latter associating simultaneous space-time events.
-
@Dar es Allrah said
"
...and I have asked you if you believe that perception. This is a very overwhelming experience and so we tend to believe everything without question that happens in it... but think now... what illuminating energy was left in your body when you were in Tiphareth? And - could you really perceive it against the brilliance? ... you didn't die so there must have been some... yes?
To be perfectly plain - the Kingdom is not black."
As I said, Malkuth is neither black/grey nor green/brown - it is The Manifestation. There is no difference.
Think of it in this way:
whatever separateness I believed in before, has been gone. The river source and the river itself is the same, variously wonderful, but still the same.To be perfectly plain:
The brilliance is now being recognized in this keyboard, laptop, in thoughts and in memories. She is everything, there is no difference. -
@Dar es Allrah said
"Just a quick illustration and not commentating on the mix, except to say that I feel that it's Dopamine acting tangentially that is responsible for the high grain & detail when it comes to abstract thinking. Without dopamine acting tangentially you get an animal awareness of detail but not access to higher thought and learning."
Well, it's really difficult to delineate which biochemical is responsible for what "feeling", given that qualitative (subjective) data is very difficult to correlate with quantitative (objective) data -- but it's safe to say that they all work in conjunction with the brain and the adrenal system, via the HPA-axis, along with other chemicals that can pass through the blood-brain barrier.
Dopamine is generally the chemical that works closely with the PAG, which is in charge of reward-based feelings.
Norepinephrine, like the all the catecholamines (like dopamine and adrenaline), is the main chemical that has to do with what we call attention, awareness, memory, and "activation", our autonomic nervous system (ANS), as opposed to cholenergic products -- which are more of our "rest state" functions -- our parasympathetic nervous system (PNS).
Dreaming is a cholinergic-based activity, with just a touch of norepinephrine (if we remember them, that is)
Does anybody remember unusual dream activity during the beginning of their energized enthusiasm practices? For me, that would be fascinating to talk about...
Serotonin is like chemically structured like dopamine, but it has a wide range of effects, depending on the individual -- but it seems to be more psychological and less traceable to the motor functions than dopamine. It also has many other effects and is found in many of the smooth muscles in our body, aiding in digestion, etc.
Cortisol -- the stress drug -- or, as I like to call it, the "adaptation facilitator" since it sounds less negative. It works in conjuction with norepinephrine during stressful situations - higher cortisol releases over time cause the absorption of norepinephrine to take place on larger scales. This indicates the more stressful the situation, the larger our capacity for regulation.
Oxytocin and vasopressin are also fun ones to look at -- the "love/monogamy" drug -- found in many animals besides humans. Feelings of security and trust -- I'm sure lots are released during (say) a Bhakti Yoga practice. People dosed with oxytocin are 10x more likely to trust a complete stranger, according to one study.
The point of all this is to illustrate how fascinating the body is, and how our "rational" mind (according to the triune-brain model) is extremely subject to all of them. To "think" one can rationalize one's way out of biochemical effects is very irresponsible. A great deal of it is conditioning (long term potentiation or LTP) which is why Liber III holds a warm place in my heart.
And, of course, all the limbs of yoga and ceremonial magick, that all aid in awareness and concentration to a single point...It is great to have this information at our disposal as Thelemites -- to offer, with the language of science, something that could be considered less "snake-oily" to the skeptic, who dismisses many things Magick as New Age or worse. We can also refine our current terms to include modern science's take on these phenomena, which I consider very helpful in regard to the momentum behind the convergence of systems. All the metaphysical terms are great for a spiritual language that we can talk metaphorically about, but I think Crowley spent a great deal of time studying the most modern methods of behavior analysis...with an aim of being more credible...
Also, it is amazing how this relates to homeostasis, adaptation, and evolution...and homeostasis is a very eloquent way to descibe a major aspect of the "drive" behind the Work.
-
@Dar es Allrah said
"@ Frater INRI: Good.
"Ehm, there is more to say, but I feel that would be slightly too much for the public forum.
Certain things are very up close and personal, so... -
@Frater 639 said
"
It is great to have this information at our disposal as Thelemites -- to offer, with the language of science, something that could be considered less "snake-oily" to the skeptic, who dismisses many things Magick as New Age or worse. We can also refine our current terms to include modern science's take on these phenomena, which I consider very helpful in regard to the momentum behind the convergence of systems. All the metaphysical terms are great for a spiritual language that we can talk metaphorically about, but I think Crowley spent a great deal of time studying the most modern methods of behavior analysis...with an aim of being more credible...
"In the light of the above, what is your take on Dimethyltryptamine?
-
@Frater INRI said
"In the light of the above, what is your take on Dimethyltryptamine?"
Well, in a scientific/materialist context, DMT is structurally like serotonin, like all the other tryptamines. My take is that it is unfortunate that we can't test these chemicals further in a clinical setting, so their use is reduced to black market products that can be extremely dangerous. It is difficult to ascertain medical and psychological benefits without more data and study.
For me personally, it is not a beneficial sacrament in my Work at this time. But, I do acknowledge that it is fun and interesting way to reframe reality temporarily by provoking a non-linear state of consciousness. It's amazing what the gasoline-based machinery does on rocket fuel!
The "spiritual" effects are extremely subjective, as everything "spiritual" is, and that isn't worth commenting on. Maybe a nice poem or a Jimi Hendrix song would do...
After personal experimentation, my personal opinion regarding mixing magick with psychoactive agonist chemicals is that it isn't very beneficial for my Work. I've found that it can cause obsession and stunt growth. However, this is only the conclusion that I came to after much experimentation while recording the data - also, neurotoxicity and the effects of prolonged serotonin substitution can have undesirable effects on the psychosoma.
However, this doesn't mean that I think it couldn't be used for beneficial medical purposes...but we lack an appreciable amount of credible data to come to any sort of consensus...
In conclusion, to each their own! Do what thou wilt!
-
@Frater 639 said
"
Well, in a scientific/materialist context, DMT is... "Yeah, well,
I was asking about something else, more along the lines of "To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all." (part of Liber AL II:22)
(please, I am not advocating drug abuse here)@Frater 639 said
"
For me personally, it is not a beneficial sacrament in my Work at this time. But, I do acknowledge that it is fun and interesting way to reframe reality temporarily by provoking a non-linear state of consciousness. It's amazing what the gasoline-based machinery does on rocket fuel! "Exactly.
Not just amazing, also potentially very insightful.@Frater 639 said
"
After personal experimentation, my personal opinion regarding mixing magick with psychoactive agonist chemicals is that it isn't very beneficial for my Work. I've found that it can cause obsession and stunt growth. However, this is only the conclusion that I came to after much experimentation while recording the data - also, neurotoxicity and the effects of prolonged serotonin substitution can have undesirable effects on the psychosoma. "Interesting...especially when shamans of old have been using this stuff for thousands of years.
@Frater 639 said
"
However, this doesn't mean that I think it couldn't be used for beneficial medical purposes...but we lack an appreciable amount of credible data to come to any sort of consensus...
"Yeah, well, I am not a medical doctor and I don't give a flying f**k about clinical (on my planet 'clinical' translates to: dull and shortsighted) research.
Thank you for your thoughts, though
-
@Dar es Allrah said
"Yes- the Shamanic path is very demanding and has all sorts of pitfalls. "
Exactly.
The shaman I know doesn't even consider taking someone on the "journey" without thorough preparation and examination of intention, motives, mental state etc...
'Cause there are goals and goals, and means and means.@Dar es Allrah said
"
... cause I'm sure Frater INRI doesn't need this advice..."
Ladies and gentlemen, may I present you my freshly appointed PR professional: Dar es Allrah
(ehm, what does your name mean, BTW, pls?) -
@Frater INRI said
"Yeah, well,
I was asking about something else, more along the lines of "To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all." (part of Liber AL II:22)
(please, I am not advocating drug abuse here)"Drug abuse is a term mostly dictated by clinical research and lawmakers -- not our glorious, quotable prophet!
But really, that's not fair -- you didn't specify with your question. You asked a very vague question that could be looked at through many different lenses. I understand your quotation and I agree wholeheartedly with it, in the context of personal drug use.
@Frater INRI said
"Interesting...especially when shamans of old have been using this stuff for thousands of years."
Appeals to antiquity are a logical fallacy. I'm personally not a Luddite.
Seriously though, shamanism is all well and good, and I'm not discrediting anyone's spiritual path. I'm concerned with usefulness in my Path. I'm also concerned with objective data as well as subjective data.
@Frater INRI said
"Yeah, well, I am not a medical doctor and I don't give a flying f**k about clinical (on my planet 'clinical' translates to: dull and shortsighted) research."
Yes, I see your point. Fortunately, the scientific method isn't going away anytime soon, and that's mostly how we gather qualitative and quantitative data -- unfortunately, we have to include clinical research to remain objective to a certain point. And I'd rather have clinical research than (say) a shaman's revelation. But, that's my personal opinion...
Your planet *is *different than other people's planets and I hope research remains objective to include both. I'm simply arguing that we don't have enough data to make a truly educated decision of how beneficial DMT is, from a purely scientific standpoint. However, personally, do what thou wilt!
I find it very useful to separate my scientific method from my spiritual method.
For instance, I would rather see a medical doctor than a shaman for pretty much everything physical. I don't need a facilitator for my spiritual journey other than myself -- if that includes drugs, that's quite alright.
This thread was about magical techniques and their effect on our physiology in the light of current neuroscience, not about agonistic drugs and how spiritually enlightening they are -- and I don't disagree that they can be.
I think we can disagree on how important drug use is when it comes to usefulness in our respective Work presently -- and I also think experimentation and use, if you find it beneficial, is very important -- but using caution and objectivity will save a lot of trouble...I think we agree on that.
-
@Frater 639 said
"
Yes, I see your point. Fortunately, the scientific method isn't going away anytime soon, and that's mostly how we gather qualitative and quantitative data -- unfortunately, we have to include clinical research to remain objective to a certain point. And I'd rather have clinical research than (say) a shaman's revelation. But, that's my personal opinion..."In my view, it is empirical knowledge versus clinically collected data.
But I see your point.
@Frater 639 said
"
Your planet *is *different than other people's planets and I hope research remains objective to include both. I'm simply arguing that we don't have enough data to make a truly educated decision of how beneficial DMT is, from a purely scientific standpoint. However, personally, do what thou wilt!I find it very useful to separate my scientific method from my spiritual method.
"Yes, I can understand that.
@Frater 639 said
"
For instance, I would rather see a medical doctor than a shaman for pretty much everything physical. I don't need a facilitator for my spiritual journey other than myself -- if that includes drugs, that's quite alright.This thread was about magical techniques and their effect on our physiology in the light of current neuroscience, not about agonistic drugs and how spiritually enlightening they are -- and I don't disagree that they can be."
OK.
@Frater 639 said
"
I think we can disagree on how important drug use is when it comes to usefulness in our respective Work presently -- and I also think experimentation and use, if you find it beneficial, is very important -- but using caution and objectivity will save a lot of trouble...I think we agree on that."Yes, we do.
-
@Frater INRI said
"In my view, it is empirical knowledge versus clinically collected data."
Something for you to ponder: It appears to me that the word "clinical" has an emotionally loaded value to you (which means it means something to you other than or more than the standard dictionary definition). The standard definition (in my own words) is "clean or controlled environment for observation." In other words, a place to conduct experiments without external contaminants interfering with the collection of empirical data. If it means something nasty or negative to you in addition or instead of that definition, that's a personal illusion.
-
@Takamba said
"
Something for you to ponder: It appears to me that the word "clinical" has an emotionally loaded value to you (which means it means something to you other than or more than the standard dictionary definition). The standard definition (in my own words) is "clean or controlled environment for observation." In other words, a place to conduct experiments without external contaminants interfering with the collection of empirical data. If it means something nasty or negative to you in addition or instead of that definition, that's a personal illusion."Yes, if you pledge your allegiance to Oxford dictionary of modern English.
Thankfully, there is a whole lot more to life than "standard dictionary definitions".Well said, though.
Personal illusions are hard at work here. -
@Takamba said
"In other words, a place to conduct experiments without external contaminants interfering with the collection of empirical data."
Hey...let's not forget the "internal" contaminants, too!
That's a very clear synopsis of what I was trying to point out, Takamba. Thank you.