The Ordeal of the Siren.
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I disagree that it's Thelemic. It's, at best, one third of Thelema.
The most characteristic mark of someone with a truly emancipated and matured individuality is the extent to which they see no particular difference between their individuality nd the collective.
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Re: Nazis. Yes, there's a matter of correct selection. And that movement (which was not a contacted order) doesn't fit the description I gave.
Also re: Nazis. By Internet convention, that normally would be the official signal to terminate the thread. Let's, et one slip by, eh wot?
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Well, technically, there's a difference between a group and an order.
"order - a group of people united in a formal way: as (1) : a fraternal society <the Masonic Order> (2) : a community under a religious rule; especially : one requiring members to take solemn vows "
If you're only looking at an order in terms of the personalities within it, then, yeah, there exists the possibility that Nephesh-level stuff can be a distraction from the Will. It's true of any group.
But if the goal-driven rule of the order is set up specifically to make its members aware of such Nephesh-level distractions to the Will and to overcome them (with instruction in this given in its ritual and myths), then all in the order are given instruction in how to recognize and overcome the potential distractions inherent in any group of personalities. The order has done all it can practically do without infringing upon the rights of the indivdual for self-determination. And the individual is free to either succeed or fail regarding the goals of the order in relationship to the group.
In other words, it is possible to separate the ideals of the order from the practical realities of a particular group and to choose the "order" above its particular manifestation in any particular "group," even though the group are all members of the same order.
The warning is that the opportunity will be presented for an individual to betray the order, which is saying something different than the individual will be presented with the opportunity to betray the particular group of personalities. Anybody who makes any progress toward their Will is going to betray some Nepheshes...
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"What do you make of Lon Milo's statement that "the Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU.)" ?"
Short version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God.
Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind.
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I see no necessary conflict between the descriptions.
You mince words instead of attempting to assimilate them.
Nor, berated, will I submit to any more *requests for opinions *from you. You only discount them for being opinions and berate the individual who takes the time to respond to your own request for opinions.
Seriously, what were you expecting? A presentation of empirically-based evidence on the nature of the Great Order?
"Today, I think I'll ask for opinions that I'll naturally reject as mere opinions."
Once one sees the insanity of your game, it's really quite tedious.
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Well, in my thinking...
God is the popular conception and personification of a level within the One Mind that is above the usual sense of everyday self.
I imagine a spectrum from Being to Individual Mind. It goes something like this (though this is just a rough first attempt at description):
Being
Mind
Unified Abstract Mind
Unified Collective Mind
Collective Mind
Individual MindIn this organization, a human's spiritual progress (understood as "return") moves from Individual Mind to more Collective levels of Mind. Where it is no longer possible for the Collective Mind to become any more unified, it begins to cross beyond the levels of individuality (even understood as a collective) and begins to take on more of the nature of higher, abstract, "heavenly principles" or "rules" of Reality.
Beyond that is pure Being alone, and no remaining quality of individual beingness whatsoever remains.
And the cycle begins again...
Personally, I find the combination of the two attempted descriptions to be inspiring.
""*Simplest *version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God." - Bereshith
"Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind." - Bereshith
"The Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU." - Lon Milo Duquette
"And this awakening will spark a fire that will burn like a million suns. That fire; that radiance is the light of the Hermit's lamp. And it will be 'all that you are'. It will be the only magical weapon you have or will need. That light will be all that you will be able to give to your brothers and sisters. Your only gift to those in the world who are still to awaken to their 'aloneness'. Your only true contribution to the life you are a part of." - Lon Milo Duquette"
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God, a short hand easy way to write "Our Lord of Silence whom naught but Silence can express."
At least, that is what it means to me.
You put whatever your highest ideal is in the place of the word God, when you see in one of my posts the word God.
It is unfortunate that people fall into the rut of seeing God as the CHRISTIAN God.
I stopped bothering speaking to self-proclaimed Athiests about God as they are rarely able to separate the notion from Christianity.
Really, most Athiests are AChristians or A-Judeo-Christian-Islamists.As for any True Order, their purpose is to serve.
Whether they serve your needs is the real question, me thinks.
A person whose tendency is to be a loner can find great magical power in the uniting of themselves within a group.
Though, I do not think the Work a person does in an Order should ever replace their own.
The two should be intertwined and if one is constantly at odds at the other, some self-reflection may be required.Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren.
EDIT:
Thought to add, that to be a good Teacher one must first be a good Student - the experience of being taught, so one might teach. -
Do what thou wilt shall be whole of the Law.
"God, a short hand easy way to write "Our Lord of Silence whom naught but Silence can express."
At least, that is what it means to me."
It's a good meaning.
"You put whatever your highest ideal is in the place of the word God, when you see in one of my posts the word God.
It is unfortunate that people fall into the rut of seeing God as the CHRISTIAN God.
I stopped bothering speaking to self-proclaimed Athiests about God as they are rarely able to separate the notion from Christianity.
Really, most Athiests are AChristians or A-Judeo-Christian-Islamists."Indeed. Though, I still think it's worth giving them a try, sometimes. Also, they have quite an important role in destroying dogma.
"Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren."
lol
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Uni_Verse said
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Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren.
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Don't they all?
Or in the very least, gone so far off topic that it's now morphed into a completely different thread.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
It's Dara's fault.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Nothing new there then
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You are pretty adept at going of on a tangent though
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Cool, we got back on track. I'd say yes for both questions.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Women get it too, I've seen this myself.
Basically though, a Siren is simply a projection of unbalanced nephesh that becomes apparent when a person starts to really aspire towards Binah, there is a sort of counter-pull from Malkuth that we experience as the Siren. This is nature trying to maintain the status-quo that you are upsetting by trying to 'get to' Binah.
This will continue until the aspirant succeeds in creating there own internal balance.
In my experience this Siren effect does not become apparent in a solitary practitioner, mainly because they haven't generally cranked up the pressure by formally dedicating themselves to the work. The act of will of beginning work on that scale is what triggers the adverse reaction.
Its a sad fact that often the most promising aspirants fail early on because the backlash from the nephesh immediately pulls them back down to malkuth as soon as they make the attempt to climb the tree, the inertia of there daily life and commitments is just too strong and as much as they might say they want to do the work, they simply cannot pull themselves away from 'old sweetnesses'.
If you are not formally dedicated to the work, then you have very little pressure to 'pass on', and so the nephesh doesn't tend to get stimulated into action in this way, or at least not so as you would notice.
As far as I can tell, the only cure is dedication to the task of your Grade, and a certain ruthlessness with regards to anything/anyone that gets in the way of that.
On the other hand, if you happen to get a boy/girlfriend who is happy for you to get on with your work, and doesn't distract you too much (That is, no more than a new girlfriend usually would
) then don't worry too much about it. -
@Dara said
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@Bereshith said
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"What do you make of Lon Milo's statement that "the Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU.)" ?"Short version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God.
Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind."
Well he went on to say about realising that you are the Great Order:
"And this awakening will spark a fire that will burn like a million suns. That fire; that radiance is the light of the Hermit's lamp. And it will be 'all that you are'. It will be the only magical weapon you have or will need. That light will be all that you will be able to give to your brothers and sisters. Your only gift to those in the world who are still to awaken to their 'aloneness'. Your only true contribution to the life you are a part of.""
This doesn't seem to resonate with how you interpret it, but then again - do I really expect you to be able to understand what this hermit means by that? Do you really expect that you'll be able to understand what he really means by this?
He never mentioned God. He didn't talk of a 'unified collective mind' (which is a bunch of hooey). He said the Great Order is an order of ONE, and that One is YOU. This talk of God and 'unified collective minds' is an illusion that does something for you... it's more palatable (to you) than what he actually said."
God is such a loaded term, but I like it myself for many purposes. It is the fundamental unity and source of being, but by being so exalted in concept it also suggests separation. On different levels, we are separate, yet united. In that sense, we're all indeed Hermits, living apart from the home of our souls, but the light in our lamps is that part of the godhead which is both our secret soul and our guide to re-union with it. In this way all orders are orders of ONE even as they appear to walk as many.
In the night, it would appear that there countless twinkling lanterns, but the Light is One. Next to it, the shadow of the its bearer's form becomes indivisible from the darkness around us.
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I tried doing it without joining the Order years ago, and had no results or Ordeals to speak of.
Interstingly enough I was getting both results and Ordeals by the bucketload within months of signing the Probationer Oath for real.
Maybe this has something to do with the level of sinscerity I brought to the Order compared to my solitary efforts? -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Archaeus said
"I tried doing it without joining the Order years ago, and had no results or Ordeals to speak of.
Interstingly enough I was getting both results and Ordeals by the bucketload within months of signing the Probationer Oath for real.
Maybe this has something to do with the level of sinscerity I brought to the Order compared to my solitary efforts?"When you tried alone, did you sign the Oath by yourself? Or worked without the Oath?
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Ethar said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Archaeus said
"I tried doing it without joining the Order years ago, and had no results or Ordeals to speak of.
Interstingly enough I was getting both results and Ordeals by the bucketload within months of signing the Probationer Oath for real.
Maybe this has something to do with the level of sinscerity I brought to the Order compared to my solitary efforts?"When you tried alone, did you sign the Oath by yourself? Or worked without the Oath?
Love is the law, love under will."
Yeah, I did the whole thing, but to be honest it felt phoney, I knew early on that I needed to find the Actual AA, that took me about 15 years. (That was back in the days before internet made finding a contact relatively easy. Now the great difficulty is getting a reply as most AA lineages are flooded with letters requesting admission, its like applying for a sought after job.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hmm, interesting. I don't know, I see the Oath signing as a big, big, big deal, even without the presence of a physical initiate. Claiming to be in it and all. Success is thy proof, after all.
I love this AâŽA⎠subject.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Ethar said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hmm, interesting. I don't know, I see the Oath signing as a big, big, big deal, even without the presence of a physical initiate. Claiming to be in it and all. Success is thy proof, after all.
I love this AâŽA⎠subject.
Love is the law, love under will."
True, success is your proof, I just found that form my own success, actual initiation into a branch of the actual AA was the necessary catalyst.
Others may disagree, which is fine, due to the difficulty of finding a genuine connection it might well be easier to do it yourself.
Besides, there are many other ways up the mountain, I certainly don't think that the AA (man made) has the monopoly on spiritual attainment.
For me though, the other option was to join a Zen monastery, but then I like the whole getting up early to meditate thing.